PTSD and Mission Qualification and Status

[THRAWN]

Much of it was and still is classified. 

I was wondering how long it would take until this line appeared.

[skydogjack]

Astute observation Thrawn.  I'm not the first, nor certainly not the last to get caught up in the issues and problems in that world.  I just did not have the personal skills to handle it when "things" happen.  It sounds like I'm talking in circles, but I suspect you know better from your comment.  So, this might actually be another good opportunity to point out that in ES, all the national security stuff, can be in and of itself, stress producing.  My situation is of course different regarding my past, but for CAP, it might be a good idea for the organization to have a more senior member, probably who are mentors, maybe the PDO to make it known they are available to talk about the "sensitive" aspects of our organization. In just about every aspect of this concern that I've been involved in, there has never been a "human" side of the conversation, regardless of which agency I was working for.  Only the "terror" tactic to drive home to point, "you screw up, you to prison".  I've had that debrief, where the last thing you do is sign your name and acknowledge, you can go to prison the rest of your life.  Yuck!

[sarmed1]

The whole PTSD thing creates a very slippery slope that there is no cookie cutter answer for.  (everyone's situation is different, yet the world tries to apply a cookie cutter solution to... be it cause, treatment, restrictions, relapse etc etc)

For example:  I am familiar with a former USA medic that is 100% disabled due to to his PTSD from his experience while deployed (he is more than happy to tell you about the "the bad stuff he had to see") Initially 50% then upgraded to 100% at the urging of the VA once he "attempted" to maintain regular work but could not due to his "issues"  (there were also some legal issues-assault/battery outside of work) TBI is considered a contributing factor.

I'm ok with that, it sucks, I know more than a few people over the past 40 years worth of associated military conflicts that have/had similar issues.  I am also very familiar that it can be 1 deployment, 1 incident or 10 deployments and 100 incidents. 

The concern:  said person insists that he is ok to do such things as (volunteer) to perform confined space rescue, hazardous material operations, building collapse rescue, motor vehicle rescue and general fire fighting and medical response?  How can I as a supervisory individual (I am not in this persons case, but for the purpose of discussion) feel comfortable placing him into some very difficult and stress producing situations that have a very high likelyhood to replicate the same "bad stuff" that he experienced to put him into 100% disablilty in the first place?  If PTSD is so bad that you cant function in a real job how is it a non issue in a volunteer job?  In a world of hind sight and high frequency of litigation, do I equally want to risk my and my organizations collective rear ends on the chance that something bad could happen?  Where would my/our guilt rest of knowing the "risk" and I ignored it/did nothing else to mitigate it? (specific incident-100% disability)  Show me a letter from your physician that says you are mentally fit to perform those duties and sure no problem, your good to go-of course said letter would likey also mean the end of you disability payment.  (I wouldnt want to do that for a volunteer job)

Before I get bashed on-like I said everyones situations are different and there are no cookie cutter answers; but examples like that are why (even if misguided) that people with PTSD issues are not always a good fit for some jobs or activities.

mk

[Spam]

Jack (and all):

I'm all about standing by vets (thank you) and preserving access rights, but I will say this:  you need to put a lid on the security related comments and inferences right now.

If you've been cleared and accessed then you should know better, as these boards are monitored. This is about CAP, not any past or present cleared work, which should have no mention here.

Thanks much,
Spam

[skydogjack]

Point taken Spam.  Your right, of course.  The last thing I want is a visit from the FBI.  Thanks for reminding me.

And, sarmed1, i'll not bash you on your comment.  Your point is clear and written in a non offensive manner. And, you are right enough in your perspective to justify my removal from just about any position of responsibility, whether paid or volunteer.  That is the stigma though, if you stop to consider that it makes very little difference how much work one has done in their life to improve upon their circumstances.  It's a label that carries a brand.  That of course is why people hide it.  It presents, I'm afraid more of an issue for people in positions of supervision, then the person with the label.  How indeed do you supervise someone that you know has had "issues" in their past?  You don't. You don't hire them or accept them as a volunteer. They just need to find something else to do, or, conceal their past.  I don't envy you in the least on this topic.  For me, I can just fade away.  You however, are faced with supervising those that conceal, hide and deceive, just so they can have a job or a place in society. 

[sarmed1]

Job and CAP (or other XYZ volunteer "thing") are very different.  In CAP there is always something you can do to contribute to the mission.  It may not be the what you want to do or wish you could do, but even with whatever "disability" issue there is, the contributions can be and are signifigant.  Everyone has the potential to have limitations to their performance; especially in a volunteer organization as a supervisor you have to be able to accept that and find ways to work with that (disabilities or just genreal human nature, declared, hidden or whatever.  Thats part of good people management skills.   
Part of being a responsible leader is recognizing when for the good of everyone you may need to enforce a limitation on someone becuase of their "issues" (or unfortantely because of someone else's issues); even if you dont like it or dont agree with it.  A good leader will find a way to make it work if there is a way (military expereince has taught me there is a waiver for just about anything if you look hard enough); a poor leader just gives you the shrug and pawns it off as someone elses fault.

PTSD is just another line on the list of stigmas we all have to deal with; take your pick many of us have seen a lot of them im sure (some have surely been them), some come some go, some remain no matter what.

mk

[skydogjack]

I know sarmed1.  I'm already prepared for "bad news".  I don't really expect to be trusted to perform any job where lives are at stake. I have even considered the blowback CAP could get from parents of cadets if they found out someone with a ptsd diagnosis was to be trusted with their children.  I decided to bring this out in the open for a tactical reason, and that was to avoid getting my heart attached to something I really wanted to do, and then having it pulled away.  The forum I think is a good cross section of our, military or military like environment.  There have been those that take the opposite position of you and others.  Who is right?  Well, as you and I both know, it will be someone further up the chain of command.  If not Wing, someone higher.  And in all sincerity, the only the only thing that could ihappen is  that I'm surprised and someone will make a decision differnt then I expect, which is to be told, no.   Guess the final challenge would be then, would anyone even want to work with me.  And, there are organizations I can do volunteer work for that are geared towards people like me.  I'm already looking.  Thanks for your honesty, and I hope no one gives you any crap for just being honest.

[skydogjack]

Sarmed1,

I totally forgot to thank you for your pointing out a simple fact surrounding PTSD issues.  That being it can be one incident or hundreds.  The fact that you know that tells me you understand, at least the basics of the condition.  In my case, Vietnam accounted for only a few really traumatic events.  I was also partially responsible for the death of a Vietnamese family from an aerial flare deployment on a Nighthawk mission  that failed to deploy the chute.  It's fell through their hut and they all burned alive.  The entire aircrew got called in and even though all the procedures that night were followed, the [darn] thing did not operate correctly.  I carried that for years.  The VA looked at that, a few other combat incidents and they included as a continued component of my original trauma, all the death and incidents in my career in law enforcement.  It's a combination of them all, and when you combine it all together, it did amount to 100's.  For me, I count myself as one of the lucky ones.  I came out if a long and difficult run, and instead of crashing and burning, I got help from some really great people.  I admitted myself to the VA PTSD recovery program, and today, I'm doing pretty darn good.  I just wanted to get back to doing something I am good at and love.

  There is a lot in what you wrote, in your words that I can see that you care.  I bet you were a good supervisor for your men.  Care......

Jack

[sarmed1]

thanks, I dont get it right every time, but I try.

Despite the "stigma" I think you may be selling yourself a little short.  I have worked with and still do work with plenty of people with varying amounts of PTSD (diagnosed and undiagnosed) as co-workers in various settings (from the very mild to the very stressful).  Sure there are some people that have "issue" with the "risk" but for the most part those that are involved in the community CAP circles in (including parents who send their children into the cadet program)  understand that it is a job hazard and likely part of the trade off that makes us good at the things that we do....
I have seen people given mission qualifications that have missing limbs, missing eyes, head injuries, uncontrolled diabetes, heart conditions and PTSD. (I even knew of one that was blind)   How many folks are on AD or Reserve status that have some of those diagnosis.... (just read an article about 3 army guys that have varying degrees of prosthetic limbs, including one as fully qualified ranger)  Like previously mentioned, CAP can not control what the FAA has to say concerning medicals, but everything short of that you are more than likely good to go (you may get some gruff here and there, but with the history it sounds like you have some experience letting it roll off your back)

mk

[skydogjack]

This will be my last post unless someone has a specific  question.  First, I'd like to really thank each of yoiu that took the time to engage in this topic.  Today, we have returning several hundred thousand soldiers from two very difficult recent wars.  The topic of PTSD is more relevant today, then ever before.  Any organization, we as a people and individuals that are able to see the value a person brings, look past our preconceived ideas and find a way to help that person reintegrate into society and feel they still have worth, I believe is a definite higher calling to which we should answer.

I'm proud to be part of an organization, that has since WWII answered the call to serve our nation and its people.  Thank you CAP for sticking with me.  For me, things have worked out and met my expectations and I'm looking forward to the opportunity to be able to give, and thereby receive.  CAP is a great organization and your leadership and actions, following your own high standards is what I'll always remember.

And, lastly, what an amazing thing to be part of, a topic, a dialog where in only a few days, almost a 1000 people viewed, and quite a few took part.

Thanks again for showing up.

2nd. Lt. Jack Harris
Civil Air Patrol

[skydogjack]

A final request.  I can't imagine that this topic has not been seen by CAP National Hq, but sometimes, importatant topics do go unnoticed.  So, I'd bet money that one of you has a direct connect to the national commander.  I'd ask someone to be sure this topic is seen by the highest levels in our organization.  The opportunity to reach out for new recruits who have skills and discipline from their military service, many though that are struggling to find purpose and a somewhat familiar place to "belong", I strongly believe CAP can be just the place for them.  You know, some will have trouble adjusting, but they are worth the effort

The president of the Uniged States started an initiative not long ago to have 100,000 of our returning soldiers be hired as police officers and firefighters.  Why?  Because they will feel at home, part of something important where their abilities can continue to serve our great nation. Let's do this for them.  And, that really is my last post on this topic.

Respectfully,

2nd. Lt. Jack Harris

[skydogjack]

Just a quick check in for those that were following this conversation.  I've been busy with family medical stuff but have had an opportunity to work with some younger veterans with adjustment and career paths. Also ended up moving back to Austin, Texas to be closer to family, friends and my gals doctors.  She had two surgeries, both went well.  Least anyone thought I'd given up on CAP, I'm going to see about transferring here to continue my volunteer work in our organization and look forward to contuning to advance CAP as an organization for our veterans to get involved in.

Thats about it.  All else is well and looking forward to the end of summer heat here in Texas.

2Lt. Jack G Harris

[Fixedwing]

FWIW:  I just checked with an FAA Senior Aviation Medical Examiner who said that the PTSD thing depends on the specifics of individual cases.  They want a letter from the individuals primary care physician or shrink (as applicable) detailing the case, medications if any, etc.  Apparently it is not an automatic deal breaker.

[blackrain]

After every trip downrange they harp to the troops about how seeking mental help won't have negative consequences for one's career. I hate to say it but I've always been of the opinion to take what you hear with a grain of salt because there are a multitude of ways the reality is often different and I actually saw it happen not long ago with a troop. I've even mentioned the fact that pilots have to be very careful what they say to the military docs because pilots hold an FAA medical certificate and you never know what the FAA will do. Nobody comes out of an encounter with the FAA/AME having a better day than when they went in and it can certainly be worse.

[Storm Chaser]

On the other hand, not being honest about your physical or mental health can potentially put other people in danger. There are reasons for these restrictions and the FAA and medical examiners are just trying to keep you and everyone else safe.

[TheSkyHornet]

...Until you get passed off to some nurse to conduct your exam who feeds you a bunch of inaccurate information.

It's always the responsibility of the certificate holder to know his/her obligations and requirements, but that's why you have professionals working in the arena to provide guidance based off of knowledge, not assumptions or false beliefs.

How many people have been told "you can't fly" over the years because someone thought the wrong thing rather than checking the regulations? I can't begin to count how many times I've been told by people "You can't fly if you wear glasses." Throw in a bunch of references to anxiety issues and suddenly it's a whole new world of "You can't do this or that" without having a single clue of existing standards.

[skydogjack]

Thanks for the great comments.  Well, I'm pretty happy right now.  Finally getting settled into my new squadron.  Really nice folks.  Just finished my Airborn Photograper requirements and need to flights to finish that.  Same with my MO.  As is usually the case, getting CAP training flights funded is a constant challenge.
I got to fly a WWII Navy AT6 a few weeks ago with a CFI.  Got to do my first ever loop!  I love the AT6.  So much fun to fly.

I continue to fly LSA and am very content not being a mission pilot anymore.  The AP position is really very important to CAP and I'm happy to be on track for that position.  I'll continue to advocate for our veterans and as y'all recently pointed out, one needs to be honest and even if the rules allowed me to be a mission pilot, I'd probable decline.  I've had my time in that position and whether in the right seat or back, it's all good for me.

Jack

PS.  I think I've had to do more study and reading for CAP then when I was in graduate school.  Yikes!

[Fixedwing]

Well, spoke with an FAA Senior AeroMedical guy who guessed that perhaps fifty people diagnosed with PTSD hold a Class 3 or better.   Having reviewed the requirements I can see why.  It is a two page single space list of stuff, some of which maybe impossible for some folks (e.g. records of entire psychiatric history),
records of all medication (ever I guess) plus the foregoing almost certainly contains sensitive personal information the individual may or may not want released.
They specify tests that they require the applicant to take, plus a current psych eval (to FAA standards) by both a psychiatrist and a psychologist (all at applicant's expense) and on and on.  It certainly is not impossible but it is expensive, difficult and time consuming.  If the diagnosis is not recent some of the required records may no longer exist.  FWIW