Does anyone use a demerit system?

[Fifinella]

If so, how do you administer it?  If not, how do you handle those cadets who never seem to get their uniform squared away?

[mikeylikey]

I just gave you 2 demerits      

Seriously, I never believed in demerit systems, because there is usually nothing to give as a reward, and nothing to take away as punishment.  What could you possibly take away from your cadets?  Flight time, testing, special activities??  You start doing that and we will see numbers drop.  What would you give? 

Just use some common sense, and layout how to prepare uniforms to your cadets as a STEP ACTION DRILL.  EXAMPLE:  Step 1, put your blue shirt in the Washing Machine......set on warm......add detergent (without bleach).....start Washing Machine.......wait 50 minutes.  Step 2, open Washing Machine......remove blue shirt.....place blue shirt in dryer OR hang on NON METAL hangar   ETC...

[dwb]

Normally, I don't cross-reference CadetStuff here, but there is a recent discussion on this very issue, with lots of good points, if you'd like to have a read: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=8047

[Pylon]

Normally, I don't cross-reference CadetStuff here, but there is a recent discussion on this very issue, with lots of good points, if you'd like to have a read: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=8047

What Dan said.

[CadetProgramGuy]

For uniforms, education is key.  Get your best uniform cadet or officer, give them Chief's Gorilla Guide, and have them teach a uniform Class.

If you choose a merit/demerit system, get SIMS, and use the merit/demerit add on.  You can customize to how you reward merits or demerits.

example:

Merit Category   Merit Name   Score
Activities
   Color Guard   1
   Encampment   15
   Honor Guard   2
   NCSA   15
   Squadron Sarex   5
   Wing SAREX   5
Attendance
   Activity - Full Day   6
   Activity - Half Day   3
   Activity - Overnight   8
   Activity - Weekend   10
   Community Service   5
   Regular Meeting   3
Behavior
   Bearing and Behavior   -2
   Insubordination   -5
Inspection
   Pass Inspection   1
Progression
   Complete CMSgt Essay   2
   Complete CMSgt Speech   5
   Complete SDA   7
Testing
   Complete ECI 13   15
   Pass AE Test > 85%   5
   Pass Aerospace Test   2
   Pass CPFT   5
   Pass Leadership Test   2
   Pass Leadership Test > 85%   5
   Take Aerospace Test   2
   Take CPFT   2
   Take Leadership Test   2
Uniform
   Fail Uniform Inspection   -1
   Not Wearing UOD   -1
   Wear Correct UOD   2

[Fifinella]

Good "stuff" all. Thanks.

[Hawk200]

In our unit, we use a locally created version of the Air Force Form 341, which can be pulled for both excellency or discrepancy. They are maintained in a file by the DCC, not in the unit personnel records.

Excellencies aren't given freely, but neither are discrepancies. There must a consistent issue that would result in one drawn for discrepancy,  a case of a cadet not taking their uniforms seriously, or not bringing things they know they should have. I pulled a few for cadets wearing hats "gangsta" style, and let them know the reasons. Just a couple of examples, there are other reasons to do it, but I don't feel like typing a list.

[Stonewall]

As a young senior member, probably 20 or 21, I thought a merit/demerit system would be cool like at encampment.  Luckily a wise squadron commander at the time said "no way".

Looking back, I'm glad I never did it because I saw it used at another squadron and it did nothing positive for the squadron.  Who wants to show up to a squadron meeting once a week where you may get a demerit?  Through the eyes of some cadets, demerit = in trouble.  My thoughts now, as an older senior member, is that it reminds me of a boss I had for a little while that basically said "do your job right or else"; threatening people to do their jobs or there will be reprecutions.  Not a positive way of doing business if you ask me.

In an encampment enviornment, which I think mimics that of a basic training environment to a point, maybe it works there.  It seemed to work when I was a cadet, but then again, I was 14 years old at my first encampment.

If someone asked me yes or no on demerits at a squadron, it would be "no" hands down.  YMMV.

[ZigZag911]

Wouldn't it be fun to use it for SENIORS?

Then drag out the records at 'promotion time'!!

[CadetProgramGuy]

Wouldn't it be fun to use it for SENIORS?

Then drag out the records at 'promotion time'!!

In all seriousness....and please no laughter....Why treat the seniors different than the cadets?

I have the personal philosophy that if I ask the cadets to do somthing, i better dang well be able to do the same thing.  And yes even PT.

[Fifinella]

In all seriousness....and please no laughter....Why treat the seniors different than the cadets?

I have the personal philosophy that if I ask the cadets to do somthing, i better dang well be able to do the same thing.  And yes even PT.

Absolutely.  Leadership by example.

[dwb]

In all seriousness....and please no laughter....Why treat the seniors different than the cadets?

Mostly because the senior member program has different goals than the cadet program.

Are you really going to drag your 81-year-old admin officer out for PT?  Does that make him any less of an admin officer?

I know there is a strong desire for senior members that work with cadets to "lead from the front" and be willing to do whatever their cadets do.  But that's not the role for senior members, it's the role for cadet NCOs.

I'm not a "sit in the office drinking coffee" s'member by any stretch, but I have learned that it's not appropriate to have the same expectations of cadets and senior members in all cases.

Though I welcome any senior members that want to participate in formation, uniform inspections, and PT.

[ZigZag911]

Wouldn't it be fun to use it for SENIORS?

Then drag out the records at 'promotion time'!!

In all seriousness....and please no laughter....Why treat the seniors different than the cadets?

I have the personal philosophy that if I ask the cadets to do somthing, i better dang well be able to do the same thing.  And yes even PT.

Holding everyone to the same DEGREE of standard is one thing....but even the military services, for instance, base PT requirements in part on age.

For good or ill, we need adult members, and some are more 'gung ho' than others......the trick is to have everyone minimally at a satisfactory level of uniform appearance, deportment, and so forth.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Wouldn't it be fun to use it for SENIORS?

Then drag out the records at 'promotion time'!!

In all seriousness....and please no laughter....Why treat the seniors different than the cadets?

I have the personal philosophy that if I ask the cadets to do somthing, i better dang well be able to do the same thing.  And yes even PT.

Holding everyone to the same DEGREE of standard is one thing....but even the military services, for instance, base PT requirements in part on age.

For good or ill, we need adult members, and some are more 'gung ho' than others......the trick is to have everyone minimally at a satisfactory level of uniform appearance, deportment, and so forth.

I agree with most of what you are saying.  My major problem is those Officers who think the only reason the cadets exist is to clean or to do dirty work.

That s why I feel that Officers and Cadets need to be treated the same.  Same requirements, same policies.

[Eagle400]

I agree with most of what you are saying.  My major problem is those Officers who think the only reason the cadets exist is to clean or to do dirty work.

That s why I feel that Officers and Cadets need to be treated the same.  Same requirements, same policies.

I think that CAP needs to have an encampement-type activity for senior members.  One where they're treated just like the basic cadets and learn the same things, plus level I material.  This would be staffed by other officers.

That may help get rid of those officers who think that cadets are only around to clean and do the dirty work.  Plus, it will also help ensure a better-trained, more professional body of members.  

[Pylon]

I think that CAP needs to have an encampement-type activity for senior members.  One where they're treated just like the basic cadets and learn the same things, plus level I material.  This would be staffed by other officers.

That may help get rid of those officers who think that cadets are only around to clean and do the dirty work.  Plus, it will also help ensure a better-trained, more professional body of members.  

Sorry; bad idea that will never work.  Adults will not give up a week of precious vacation a year to be away from their families, doing entry-level training for CAP.   We have a hard enough time convincing S'members to take off a week for Region Staff College... something I'd consider a lot more important than orientation and Level I stuff.

Can Level I be improved?  Yes.  Does it relate to this discussion in the least bit?  No.  Would adults benefit anything from such an activity?  No.   Do most of our cadet programs senior members think they're better than the rest of the crop and think cadets are only around to do their labor?  No, former cadet, on the whole they do not.

Next?

[Eagle400]

Do most of our cadet programs senior members think they're better than the rest of the crop and think cadets are only around to do their labor?  No, former cadet, on the whole they do not.

Where did I say or imply that they did, lieutenant Kieloch?  I think you're reading into something I did not write. 

[Pylon]

Do most of our cadet programs senior members think they're better than the rest of the crop and think cadets are only around to do their labor?  No, former cadet, on the whole they do not.

Where did I say or imply that they did, lieutenant Kieloch?  I think you're reading into something I did not write. 

In the post above mine, you wrote (with my emphasis added):

I think that CAP needs to have an encampement-type activity for senior members.  One where they're treated just like the basic cadets and learn the same things, plus level I material.  This would be staffed by other officers.

That may help get rid of those officers who think that cadets are only around to clean and do the dirty work.  Plus, it will also help ensure a better-trained, more professional body of members.  

But perhaps I read into that wrong.  Either way, it's not a viable training option.  We could have a discussion on it in another thread (since this is now way off topic), but I have a feeling there is going to be quite a consensus amongst the members.

I'll just restate my points, again, in case somebody reads into wrong, though.  Better orientation training needed?  Yep, I think so.   Would seniors go to an encampment-style orientation activity?  Nope;  You'd be out of a cadet program in many locations.    Do seniors (your quote) "think that cadets are only around to clean and do the dirty work"?  I don't see that attitude in seniors around here, and I don't hear of it from anybody on these boards; not sure where you got that impression from.

Again, we've veered way off topic.

[Eagle400]

My major problem is those Officers who think the only reason the cadets exist is to clean or to do dirty work.

That's where I got that. 

I've seen it myself, though I do agree that the vast majority of CAP officers do not act like that. 

Now, back to the topic...

[ZigZag911]

I agree with most of what you are saying.  My major problem is those Officers who think the only reason the cadets exist is to clean or to do dirty work.

That s why I feel that Officers and Cadets need to be treated the same.  Same requirements, same policies.

If everyone held themselves to the spirit of the CAP Core Values, personal integrity would dispose of this problem.

[Hawk200]

...Do seniors (your quote) "think that cadets are only around to clean and do the dirty work"?  I don't see that attitude in seniors around here, and I don't hear of it from anybody on these boards; not sure where you got that impression from.

In all fairness, I have seen this attitude in a few. I tend to let them know that cadets are here to be trained, not just for labor detail.

There have also been cadets I've heard muttering about seniors not doing anything. I tend to disavow them of that notion by picking up a mop or broom, and doing cleaning myself from time to time. They tend to come to the conclusions on their own, and it saves the trouble of alienating them with a "talk".

Neither attitude really seems that common, but they are out there.

Anyway, back to the original issue. Kinda seems like a demerit system can be a bad idea. I may analyze ours when I get back to my unit, and make some recommendations.

[Stonewall]

I have personally experienced this type of thing only twice, once as a cadet and once as a deputy commander for cadets.  In short, a couple of pilots tried to barter with orientation flights.  "You cadets wash and wax our plane and we'll give you orientation flights".

Fortunately, that's not how the program works.  But stuff like that does happen.

[mikeylikey]

I think that CAP needs to have an encampments-type activity for senior members.  One where they're treated just like the basic cadets and learn the same things, plus level I material.  This would be staffed by other officers.

They used to have that.  It was called ENCAMPMENT.  I know from researching that PAWG had the largest of these Encampments during WW2 and up until 1954.  Not to sure why they went away.  It was expected that every single member come out and participate during the sometimes weeklong training. 

-Just a sidenote of history for you.