What hath McPeak Wrought?

[Major Carrales]

Right from E-Bay...what McPeak probably Wore...





Curious?

[lordmonar]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

[baronet68]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

But that is the braid of a 4-star.

[Major Carrales]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

Ooops...well then, here is to someday paying that fee!!! 

I did not know that the large braid had..."clouds and darts" on it? 

Pity these uniforms are virtually non-existant on the web...while it is a precarious chapter in "USAF UNIFORM HISTORY," I find such quirks to be interesting.

[shorning]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

But that is the braid of a 4-star.

Correct.  There are pictures out there of McTony and Fogelman sporting that braid.

[SarDragon]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

But that is the braid of a 4-star.

Correct.  There are pictures out there of McTony and Fogelman sporting that braid.

Did you know that McTony and Fogleman flew together in Viet Nam? They flew F-100Fs as Misty Fast-FACs (# 94 and #86 respectively). Dick Rutan (#40) was also in the same unit, but before Merrill and Ron.

[AlphaSigOU]

I did not know that the large braid had..."clouds and darts" on it? 

No, no, no, Maj. C... they're 'farts and darts!'

CAPFLT001's TPU service dress jacket sleeve braid is plain silver, double the size of the standard silver braid. Probably the same style silver braid CG Auxies wear and commercially available from Vanguard.

And a female version of the TPU service dress jacket is now available, but not online.

[ColonelJack]

Well, I don't know what McPeak hath wrought, but I do know this:

I just bid on it.

It will make a swell uniform for my Admiral of the Great Navy of Nebraska commission!

(Now don't go outbid me, folks.  I mean it.    )

Jack

[Monty]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

Brother, I'm surprised you'd make such a "whoopsie!"  Weren't we all traumatized enough by McPeak to have his image burned into our minds, "Navy rank" and all?

Let's "QAF" this one to death now...

[lordmonar]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

Brother, I'm surprised you'd make such a "whoopsie!"  Weren't we all traumatized enough by McPeak to have his image burned into our minds, "Navy rank" and all?

Let's "QAF" this one to death now...

Well it's been a long time....and I was/am a maintainer.  It's not like we wore the service dress all that much.

As for QAFing.....lets get the Process Action Team together, we'll go over the metrics and then see if there are any Quality Process Improvements we can make.  Remember....it's all about customer requirments and empowering the process owners.

[Major Carrales]

Well, I don't know what McPeak hath wrought, but I do know this:

I just bid on it.

It will make a swell uniform for my Admiral of the Great Navy of Nebraska commission!

(Now don't go outbid me, folks.  I mean it.    )

Jack

That would be (as my students say) sweet!!!  I hope you get it!!!

[ZigZag911]

It will make a swell uniform for my Admiral of the Great Navy of Nebraska commission!

To top it off, you need one of those cool hats like Admiral Horatio Nelson, RN, wore!

[NEBoom]

As for QAFing.....lets get the Process Action Team together, we'll go over the metrics and then see if there are any Quality Process Improvements we can make.  Remember....it's all about customer requirments and empowering the process owners.

Whatever you do, don't forget to hold the hot wash when it's all over....

[LtCol White]

It will make a swell uniform for my Admiral of the Great Navy of Nebraska commission!

To top it off, you need one of those cool hats like Admiral Horatio Nelson, RN, wore!

Or a blue propeller beanie with farts and darts 

[ColonelJack]

Well, it looks as if I'll have to come up with another idea for the Admiral's uniform.

Someone decided to bid more than I can afford on the jacket.

Poop.

Jack

[flyerthom]

It will make a swell uniform for my Admiral of the Great Navy of Nebraska commission!

To top it off, you need one of those cool hats like Admiral Horatio Nelson, RN, wore!

Nelson was a nurse?


DOH!

Royal Navy,  darn bifocals.

[JarakMaldon]

Where is (or was) this listing on eBay?

[alexalvarez]

What happened to the big red floppy shoes that goes with this uniform?

[NAYBOR]

I personally think we could've gone with this design for a "corporate" service coat.  You can't deny McPeak's design looks like a corporate pilot's coat!  With having single-breasted buttons, and maybe putting a 4th one on to differentiate it from the AF service jacket of 3 it would've been clearly distinct as a CAP coat than an AF officer's.  Rank would be on the sleeves, etc. etc.

But we have the TPU.  The TPU coat is basically an AF-blue (1625) Navy officer's coat.  The Navy officer's coat is the EXACT SAME CUT, save the epaulettes flaps on the shoulders and the color.  They could've put silver rank stripes on the sleeves of the TPU coat the same as the McPeak coat, and it would've been undoubtedly distinguishable from an AF officer coat (obviously), and the also USCG Aux coat because there would've been no sleeve device above the rank stripes like the CG Aux has.  The USCG service coat is an entirely different cut than the TPU, too.  I'd personally remove the epaulettes from the TPU; use silver rank stripes on the sleeves; take the CAP cutouts off of the lapels (I liked when it had US cutouts for a short time, but lost interest in getting the coat when that was changed); either change the nametag back to a single line (last name) silver nametag, or have a 2-line silver name tag with last name on the first line, then "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" on the second line; keep the service cap as is; change the TPU rank epaulettes to an AF blue color with silver stripes (like AFROTC has, but AFROTC's are black epaulettes, not blue); wear the devices and ribbons as is presently customary on the TPU coat, and then call it good.  The CAP DOES have an "naval aviation" history--we sunk submarines in WWII, remember?  It could be considered OUR "heritage coat".

OK, I'll come back to reaility now.  But, honestly, that's what I'd do with the TPU monstrocity to "fix" it.  Some may flame the hell outta me for saying all this, but, hey, it'd be distinctive, it'd be our own--it would embody a service coat, that, in my mind, represents being both an auxilliary of the AF while also being a civilian corporate entity.  It would honor the CAP fliers from back in the day who, without argument, flew naval aviation missions causing at least 2 subs to be sunk AT OUR OWN HANDS (and possibly more) and sending the German subs fleeing from our waters.  It wasn't the Navy who did that--it was the CAP!

Besides, if the above changes were made, and we WERE mistaken for a "real" military (albeit civilian) auxilliary (USCG Aux), would that be so bad?  At least this nation's uniformed auxilliary forces would look similar.

OK, go ahead and call me crazy now...  Either way, discuss.

[flapsUP]

Forget all this USAF and TPU uniform nonsense.  Let's return to our heritage and go to the "Pink and Greens" of the old army air corps.  This was the sharpest uniform ever.

[DNall]

Naybor... That'd cost a fortune, look almost exactly like the CGAux, look horrible to the rest of the AF (just as the McPeak fiasco did), and is just wholly unacceptable in any way shape or form.

Pinks & Greens? Are you nuts? The Army Air Corps is dead 60 years now & good riddens. The Air Force should have been split before WWII, but was not allowed to because you don't want that transition at the same time as a major war, but it faught as a seperate force nonetheless. And it did so in uniforms representative of t a time when the Country didn't respect or believe in airpower. They have a bit more place in the Army, but why that one? WWII is not the most important thing that ever happen in our contry's history, and that was not really the greatest generation. We're going to a blue/gray uniform that traces its roots back even before the civil war, and symbolizes a more important period in our history. The greatest generation though is right now, when facing a threat greater than that in WWII, and doing it with a fraction of the force & little world support. We're driving ever forward as an Army & AF, and the uniforms need to reflect that modernism as well.

Anyway, AF-style is supposed to be the least modification legally required from the AF officer uniform, and corp-style is supposed to be the least necessary to make things exisiting in every businessman's closet into an identifiable outfit appropriate to the circumstance.

[Eclipse]

Forget all this USAF and TPU uniform nonsense.  Let's return to our heritage and go to the "Pink and Greens" of the old army air corps.  This was the sharpest uniform ever.

Word.

And many of our members still have theirs!   

[Flying Pig]

We were talking about this very thing at my last meeting.  I say we go to khaki's, with the blue Air Force cover just like the AF back in the 50's and 60's.    All we need to do is buy Navy khakis as far as suppliers go.  Wear our ranks on our collars and leave everything else the same.  Then we wont look like anyone else, and still look sharp.  Not that that will ever happen, but someone or something needs to stop all of this uniform nonsense.  This is just flat out embarassing.  Uniforms for fat people, uniforms for skinny people, uniforms for if you really dont want to wear a uniform.  Geeeeeeesh!  We have more uniforms combinations than the WW2 German Army!

[mikeylikey]

Naybor... That'd cost a fortune, look almost exactly like the CGAux, look horrible to the rest of the AF (just as the McPeak fiasco did), and is just wholly unacceptable in any way shape or form.

Pinks & Greens? Are you nuts? The Army Air Corps is dead 60 years now & good riddens. The Air Force should have been split before WWII, but was not allowed to because you don't want that transition at the same time as a major war, but it faught as a seperate force nonetheless. And it did so in uniforms representative of t a time when the Country didn't respect or believe in airpower. They have a bit more place in the Army, but why that one? WWII is not the most important thing that ever happen in our contry's history, and that was not really the greatest generation. We're going to a blue/gray uniform that traces its roots back even before the civil war, and symbolizes a more important period in our history. The greatest generation though is right now, when facing a threat greater than that in WWII, and doing it with a fraction of the force & little world support. We're driving ever forward as an Army & AF, and the uniforms need to reflect that modernism as well.

Anyway, AF-style is supposed to be the least modification legally required from the AF officer uniform, and corp-style is supposed to be the least necessary to make things exisiting in every businessman's closet into an identifiable outfit appropriate to the circumstance.

..... the Army Air Forces did not fight as a separate force during WW2.  It was no different than the Armor or Infantry branches.  In fact most Army officers assigned to Army Wings and aviation units did not support the initial split from the Army.  They were Officers of the Army first and foremost.  It was a group of Generals that did not want to see their budgets cut or their men reassigned after WW2 that lobbied for a split. 

With the amount of joint ops that go on today and how the nature of warfare has changed it would not be a surprise if we see a re-integration back into the Army in our lifetimes.  In fact, the recent BRAC rounds have shown that DoD wants to place Army and Air Force assets together.  The primary reasoning is that the AF will support the Army. 

We're going to a blue/gray uniform that traces its roots back even before the civil war, and symbolizes a more important period in our history

I am guessing you mean the Revolutionary War?  However, the modern Dress Blues that will be updated come shortly before the Civil War. 

[DNall]

..... the Army Air Forces did not fight as a separate force during WW2.  It was no different than the Armor or Infantry branches. 

The split was in the works from the time of Billy Mitchell. The RAF did it right, and it took the US till after WWII to best organize ours. The AAF most certainly did fight seperate from the Army & different than other branches. You could enlist directly to the AAF, not other parts of the Army, had seperate basic training, etc. Then you went to a numbered Air Force & faught in Sq/Gpp/Wg/NAF... not under the command of a division or corps commanded by a ground commander like every other branch in the Army. The AAF was in almost every way but formally a seperate service during WWII.

With the amount of joint ops that go on today and how the nature of warfare has changed it would not be a surprise if we see a re-integration back into the Army in our lifetimes.  In fact, the recent BRAC rounds have shown that DoD wants to place Army and Air Force assets together.  The primary reasoning is that the AF will support the Army. 

The Air Force is a designated support service of the Army in the same way the Navy is of the Marines. There was originally an alternate plan to break AF off but keep it under the Dept of the Army the same way as the marines are with the Navy, but that was shot down (no pun intended) because of the amount & degree of importance of projected airpower being of greater importance then the support functions delevered to the Army.

They will not nor should they ever re-integrate, and frankly Army Aviation is about to take a serious smack down if they don't quit playing so dirty on their fixed wing evolution plan. You may well see better integration in some places with some assets, but iverall, for all the same reasons AF was broken off, you'll always have independent airpower.

We're going to a blue/gray uniform that traces its roots back even before the civil war, and symbolizes a more important period in our history

I am guessing you mean the Revolutionary War?  However, the modern Dress Blues that will be updated come shortly before the Civil War. 

The color blue perhaps, but that didn't emerge till the middle of the revolution. The current dress blue uniform is from the 1840s running thru the post civil war era. As that's turned into class As, and the gray shirt is added for Bs, that comes from west point, which was the basis of the confederate gray. Obviously a very traditional uniform, but also updated & slick for the future.... Now, on the AF side, it should not be steeped in tradition, it should always be laaning out into the future to show slick cutting edge professional, even a little business looking. It's not the army & it shouldn't look like the Army.

[Major_Chuck]

No can't be Tony's....he was a 4 star.

BTW....the fee for mentioning the former chief of staff's name will cost you an adult beverage!

Brother, I'm surprised you'd make such a "whoopsie!"  Weren't we all traumatized enough by McPeak to have his image burned into our minds, "Navy rank" and all?

Let's "QAF" this one to death now...

Well it's been a long time....and I was/am a maintainer.  It's not like we wore the service dress all that much.

As for QAFing.....lets get the Process Action Team together, we'll go over the metrics and then see if there are any Quality Process Improvements we can make.  Remember....it's all about customer requirments and empowering the process owners.

You can never have enought Total Quality Improvement, Total Quality Management, ISO9000 standards, and Process Improvement Teams to ensure that everyone feels warm and fuzzy about things.

[Major_Chuck]

From the Air Force Art Collection

http://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Presentation/Common/..%5C..%5CPresentation%5Cimages%5Cartwork%5C1994.023.JPG

[Flying Pig]

I suddenly have the urge to buy an airline ticket.

[JC004]

From the Air Force Art Collection

http://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Presentation/Common/..%5C..%5CPresentation%5Cimages%5Cartwork%5C1994.023.JPG

You just spring that on us without warning us of the contents?  I hate looking at that uniform!

[Camas]

When did that McPeak uniform come out and how long was it worn?  Anyone know?  Is it true that CAP never adopted it?

[Psicorp]

When did that McPeak uniform come out and how long was it worn?  Anyone know?  Is it true that CAP never adopted it?

I remember seeing those at the Clothing Sales store on an Air Force Base right after they were authorized, IIRC, they weren't there for long, maybe six months and then they were replaced with the current version.  Sometimes it is a good thing CAP is a little slow to adopt new AF uniforms.

[Desert Dawg]

McPeak also changed the flight suits.  We called them McPeak bags.  He took a regular flight suit and sewed in permanent creases and  added epaulets.  After several hours of sitting those sewn in creases became painful. 

[LtCol White]

The uniform wasnt ready for distribution until the end of his term in the 90's. When gen Fogelman came in, he altered it rather quick to the current uniform.

McPeak was seen wearing it but never saw any USAF folks wearing it.
No, CAP never adopted it. Once Gen Fogelman created the current coat, CAP was authorized to wear it.

[mikeylikey]

McPeak also changed the flight suits.  We called them McPeak bags.  He took a regular flight suit and sewed in permanent creases and  added epaulets.  After several hours of sitting those sewn in creases became painful. 

You are kidding right?  How god-awful useless!  Not to mention the fact that the NHQ spy's just saw this post, and they are in the process of writting the change letter mandating the change of our bags.  AWE to the SOME.......AWESOME!

[Major Carrales]

From the Air Force Art Collection

http://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Presentation/Common/..%5C..%5CPresentation%5Cimages%5Cartwork%5C1994.023.JPG

Aw...I feel a bit sorry for him.    I mean look at that painting, he was proud of that uniform.  (he's even stroking that eagle to show he meant it!!!)

[LTC_Gadget]

he was proud of that uniform.  (he's even stroking that eagle to show he meant it!!!)

Is that a euphemism in order to get past the profanity filter?? 

[Desert Dawg]

I still have a Mcpeak bag that was never worn.  Maybe I will dig it out and post pictures.  Another change he made was to make the pockets on the lower leg smaller, so that you couldn't carry your flight cap in it. 

[mikeylikey]

This McPeak guy was a real piece of work.  Glad we don't have anyone in CAP like him!!!

[Psicorp]

This McPeak guy was a real piece of work.  Glad we don't have anyone in CAP like him!!!

Shirley, you jest!

[LTC_Gadget]

This McPeak guy was a real piece of work.  Glad we don't have anyone in CAP like him!!!

Thank gosh you were typing that.  If you'd have been speaking, I'm not sure that you could have enunciated that clearly with your tongue buried so deeply in your cheek.... 

V/R,

[RogueLeader]

Forget all this USAF and TPU uniform nonsense.  Let's return to our heritage and go to the "Pink and Greens" of the old army air corps.  This was the sharpest uniform ever.

Where's the tallest tree in the states? Cuase when I get there . . . . .

[NAYBOR]

DNall,

OK, yes, it'd cost money.  No doubt.  My point was a uniform that was civilian but military enough to be discernable as an alternative to the AF service dress.  The uniform I discribe would look more like a corporate uniform of a civilian pilot.  Yes, it might be hideous to some, but no doubt it would scream "CAP Officer" and be completely distinct and discernable as a "CAP only" uniform.

Well, if you ain't gonna keep the "U.S." on the TPU (I still don't buy/get all the 'Geneva convention'/'AF told us to' stuff--I don't see anything legally wrong with have the "U.S." cutouts on our corporate uniforms.  It's on our corporate flight patches [command patch], it's now on our nametapes [AF-style/Corporate BDU], it sounds like it's gonna be on our nametags and flight tags [both AF-styleand corporate]--so what the heck is wrong with "U.S." on the TPU service coat?), at least take the "CAP" cutout off altogether for officers--it's not needed (keep it for cadets).  Put the last name first on the name tag, with "US Civil Air Patrol" under it (I'd much rather see US Air Force Auxilliary, but who the heck am I?).  Take that darn silver brade off of the sleeves and service cap--I'm sorry, it's out of place, and not needed.  Keep the Service cap the same as AF-style CAP service cap, and use the same blue commisioning braid as on the AF service coat.  If not that, no braid at all then (I'd much rather see the blue braid, though).  It'd still cost money, but no where as much as my original suggestion.  These suggestions would also keep much continuity between the AF service coat and the TPU.  It'd also keep continuity for older/larger cadets waering the TPU (I DID leave cadets out with my original suggestions).

DNall, remember--one psychological ploy to bargaining or asking for something is to first ask for something so outrageaous that when you ask for what you REALLY want, you usually get it...

[DNall]

OK, yes, it'd cost money.  No doubt.  My point was a uniform that was civilian but military enough to be discernable as an alternative to the AF service dress.  The uniform I discribe would look more like a corporate uniform of a civilian pilot.  Yes, it might be hideous to some, but no doubt it would scream "CAP Officer" and be completely distinct and discernable as a "CAP only" uniform.

None of which we want to be true. It is an AF based organization first & foremost. No uniform combination for cadet or adult should scream anything but part of AF, and be just barely different enough to make clear that UCMJ authority doesn't exist. That's it & nothing more, and AF is the sole determiner of what that means.

Well, if you ain't gonna keep the "U.S." on the TPU (I still don't buy/get all the 'Geneva convention'/'AF told us to' stuff--I don't see anything legally wrong with have the "U.S." cutouts on our corporate uniforms.  It's on our corporate flight patches [command patch], it's now on our nametapes [AF-style/Corporate BDU], it sounds like it's gonna be on our nametags and flight tags [both AF-styleand corporate]--so what the heck is wrong with "U.S." on the TPU service coat?), at least take the "CAP" cutout off altogether for officers--it's not needed (keep it for cadets).  Put the last name first on the name tag, with "US Civil Air Patrol" under it (I'd much rather see US Air Force Auxilliary, but who the heck am I?).  Take that darn silver brade off of the sleeves and service cap--I'm sorry, it's out of place, and not needed.  Keep the Service cap the same as AF-style CAP service cap, and use the same blue commisioning braid as on the AF service coat.  If not that, no braid at all then (I'd much rather see the blue braid, though).  It'd still cost money, but no where as much as my original suggestion.  These suggestions would also keep much continuity between the AF service coat and the TPU.  It'd also keep continuity for older/larger cadets waering the TPU (I DID leave cadets out with my original suggestions).

I'm not so sure about the Geneva convention thing either. DoD interprets what international law defines as mandatory elements of an officer uniform versus other combatants & non-combatants. The US cutouts were authorized on the service coat when the whole AF wore them, but now enlisted are back to distinctive cutouts, so they may have a problem with it staying that way on our uniform, which I think would really be a shame, especially since no one has ever cared about commissioning braid.

Otherwise I'd agree with most of your change recommendations. The silver braid has to go!!!, the grade slides should get CAP embroidered on them. The blue nametag used with this uniform should be the standard for all other uniforms (no change to silver tags on the two service coats), permission should be sought & achieved for wear of mil badges/ribbons on these uniforms... basic stuff.

DNall, remember--one psychological ploy to bargaining or asking for something is to first ask for something so outrageaous that when you ask for what you REALLY want, you usually get it...

That's not what happened though. They couldn't get their way & AF said NEVER possible no matter what CAP is, so CAP just went & did their own thing in loop hole mode. They aren't negotiating with the partner, and that's the chief complaint most of us have.

[DNall]

I still have a Mcpeak bag that was never worn.  Maybe I will dig it out and post pictures.  Another change he made was to make the pockets on the lower leg smaller, so that you couldn't carry your flight cap in it. 

Mine's too small for me bnow, but it's a little different then that. The map pockets are actually much deeper so the flight cap drops all the way in w/o sticking out. Leg pockets are gone in favor of zip thru to shorts pockets. No epaulets on mine, and doesn't look like they were removed unless it was some real expert work. The perma-creases are slick (never painful), though they aren't reinforced on the knee so they don't exist long in that spot. The overall cut is much sleeker & form fitting. It really looks good, not at all bag-like. I really really liked that, and really wish it were bigger than it is.

[AlphaSigOU]

...Leg pockets are gone in favor of zip thru to shorts pockets...

Happy pockets!      

The current blue CAP utility uniform available from Vanguard  is modeled after the McPeak flight suit with knife pocket on the lower leg and happy pockets. No epaulets or permacreases.

[LtCol White]

DNall, remember--one psychological ploy to bargaining or asking for something is to first ask for something so outrageaous that when you ask for what you REALLY want, you usually get it...

NOT true at all. When you do this, you more often than not lose credibility.