Cadet PT Uniforms

[FloridaCaptain]

The national cadet council is talking about creating a cadet PT uniform.  They think the cadets look bad when doing PT.  Not sure that I'll have anyone agreeing with me here, but they already have 2 uniforms that for smaller squadrons can be difficult to obtain, especially BDUs.  Creating a new uniform would probably just create new revenue stream for vanguard. It should be up to the squadron commander as to what the cadets wear when doing PT, and there are already suggestions out there.  The cadet council needs something new to focus its attention on.   

[Eclipse]

The CAC has no power to "create" anything.  They can, if so inclined, or asked to advise, provide input
as to whether there needs to be a cadet PT uniform, however barring a change to the regulations,
unless NHQ funds the purchase of said uniform, they can't require it be worn.

And while I'm all for uniformity, and advise and direct cadets to wear common-sense, subdued colors
for PT, I don't think we need a standard PT uniform, if for no other reason then the expense, since
it would almost certainly have to be replaced annually, and for some cadets more often.

A general specification of say "dark colored shorts and gray t-shirt" would be OK, I guess, but nothing
with a logo or that has a single source.

It's interesting that at the same time there is discussion of decoupling PT from most promotions, thus
de-emphasizing it in general, the CAC wants a standard PT uniform.

Left-hand / right-hand.

[MSG Mac]

Let's add another $15-$20 to the costs of being a member.

[JC004]

I saw the NCAC proposal.  They were considering it as suggested guidance, rather than a requirement. 

We used to have a squadron-required PT uniform, but that was because I was able to get the pants surplus and provide the whole thing without additional cost.

The NCAC proposed proposal (heh) wouldn't be mandatory.  I think the idea was mostly to make a more uniform optional combo.

[Brit_in_CAP]

The CAC has no power to "create" anything.  They can, if so inclined, or asked to advise, provide input
as to whether there needs to be a cadet PT uniform, however barring a change to the regulations,
unless NHQ funds the purchase of said uniform, they can't require it be worn.

And while I'm all for uniformity, and advise and direct cadets to wear common-sense, subdued colors
for PT, I don't think we need a standard PT uniform, if for no other reason then the expense, since
it would almost certainly have to be replaced annually, and for some cadets more often.

A general specification of say "dark colored shorts and gray t-shirt" would be OK, I guess, but nothing
with a logo or that has a single source.

It's interesting that at the same time there is discussion of decoupling PT from most promotions, thus
de-emphasizing it in general, the CAC wants a standard PT uniform.

Left-hand / right-hand.

+1 and then some.

Enough cost for cadets as it is.  We go with the 'general specification' that Eclipse mentions, especially the no logo and not single source.

[arajca]

Also, this was discussed a few times I'm aware of at the NB/NEC/CSAG/etc. level and was rejected each time.

[LSThiker]

This same subject has been talked about for years previous.  It was even discussed when I was a NCAC member.  The proposal is not anything new.  When we suggested a CPFT uniform, it was a simple recommendation of "blue shorts" and a "white, gray, or black (I think these colors) T-shirt" from any source.  Even that was rejected.  So I would not get too worked up about this. 

[Panzerbjorn]

In my squadron, when cadets join, their yearly squadron dues include a squadron t-shirt with the squadron emblem on the left breast.  For PT, the cadets are required to either wear the squadron t-shirt (preferred), a plain black t-shirt, or the orange Ranger t-shirt if they've earned it.  The Ranger typically do an extra 1/2 mile esprit de corps run after their mile test.  The squadron requirement of wearing the black t-shirts solves the uniformity issue for the most part.

We also require that the cadets wear conservative black athletic shorts.  No purples or beach volleyball shorts. Shoes are completely at the cadets' discretion.

As a result of this, we don't have the problems of uniformity.

[Flying Pig]

Here is why CAC is ultimately guided by adults with common sense.  This is something left regulated by the Squadron. if you attend an activity at Group or Wing, they most of the time, always offer an activity t-shirt that is paid for in the fee.  Mandate "black shorts and activity t-shirt for such and such course".   All that will happen with this, is Vanguard will end up with another item that 20,000 parents will need to buy for $19.95.

[AirAux]

Unless your PT last for 2 - 2 1/2 hours, do you want everyone running around in shorts and t-shirts for the rest of the evening?  I guess we could have them change into uniforms after PT, but is that opening a door for problems??   

[Eclipse]

What else do you do? 

You can't have them run or PT test in bluess, and running in boots should be reserved for times when gunshots are heard.

Of course they change, or "PT night" is nothing else.

[GroundHawg]

I think is funny you guys think vanguard will only charge $20! Im guessing $20 each piece for shorts and shirts, and another $30+ each for a jacket and pants. About an additional $100 each member for the vanguard monopoly would be my guess.

[Storm Chaser]

For PT, the cadets are required to either wear the squadron t-shirt (preferred), a plain black t-shirt, or the orange Ranger t-shirt if they've earned it.

I don't mean to start another HMRS discussion (I personally have no issues with the program), but CAPM 39-1 does not authorize an orange t-shirt for HMRS graduates. Does your squadron let NBB, NESA, COS, etc. graduates wear their respective activity t-shirts? If the answer is no, then neither should it allow the HMRS t-shirts.

The Ranger typically do an extra 1/2 mile esprit de corps run after their mile test.

What's the purpose for this? HMRS graduates are not a separate group within the squadron nor have a separate PT standard within CAP Cadet Programs. Units should be developing esprit de corps with all unit members and not a selected group.

[Storm Chaser]

I think PT uniforms should be designated by the unit commanders or activity directors; not by NHQ. In most instances, a unit or activity t-shirt with black shorts can provide the desired uniformity. Cadets already own black t-shirts, so that's another acceptable option. Either way, we don't need a national standard thats going to add cost and complexity to the uniform.

[Eclipse]

Good point - it should be black t-shirts (CAP or otherwise), and nothing else.

And again, absent a change to 39-1, no echelon can require a cadet to buy any uniform item except for Class-B blues, regardless
of squadron dues, SOPs, or otherwise.

Is it done all the time?  Yep.   Doesn't change what the reg actually says.

I never had a cadet refuse to wear BDUs for encampment - no idea what I would have done if it happened.
Call the Wing King, I guess and let him deal with it.

[Alaric]

I think is funny you guys think vanguard will only charge $20! Im guessing $20 each piece for shorts and shirts, and another $30+ each for a jacket and pants. About an additional $100 each member for the vanguard monopoly would be my guess.

<sarcasm> But remember that's a good thing because we get a kickback from Vanguard for Cadet Programs </sarcasm>

[Brit_in_CAP]

Unless your PT last for 2 - 2 1/2 hours, do you want everyone running around in shorts and t-shirts for the rest of the evening?  I guess we could have them change into uniforms after PT, but is that opening a door for problems??

PT does not last that long but we have no facilities for changing...so stay in PT gear it is!

Sometimes, especially during the summer, it gets a little...ripe...

Hydration is always taken care of, before anyone gets the wrong idea.   

[Panzerbjorn]

For PT, the cadets are required to either wear the squadron t-shirt (preferred), a plain black t-shirt, or the orange Ranger t-shirt if they've earned it.

I don't mean to start another HMRS discussion (I personally have no issues with the program), but CAPM 39-1 does not authorize an orange t-shirt for HMRS graduates. Does your squadron let NBB, NESA, COS, etc. graduates wear their respective activity t-shirts? If the answer is no, then neither should it allow the HMRS t-shirts.

The Ranger typically do an extra 1/2 mile esprit de corps run after their mile test.

What's the purpose for this? HMRS graduates are not a separate group within the squadron nor have a separate PT standard within CAP Cadet Programs. Units should be developing esprit de corps with all unit members and not a selected group.

It's not a HMRS thing, it's a NCWG Ranger program thing.  Yes, we allow them to wear them if they've earned them.  Yes, we allow NESA t-shirts, MERSAR t-shirts, etc.  I wear my NESA shirts all the time.

The Rangers typically want to run that extra 1/2 mile, so we let them.  No harm in it.

[GroundHawg]

For PT, the cadets are required to either wear the squadron t-shirt (preferred), a plain black t-shirt, or the orange Ranger t-shirt if they've earned it.

I don't mean to start another HMRS discussion (I personally have no issues with the program), but CAPM 39-1 does not authorize an orange t-shirt for HMRS graduates. Does your squadron let NBB, NESA, COS, etc. graduates wear their respective activity t-shirts? If the answer is no, then neither should it allow the HMRS t-shirts.

The Ranger typically do an extra 1/2 mile esprit de corps run after their mile test.

What's the purpose for this? HMRS graduates are not a separate group within the squadron nor have a separate PT standard within CAP Cadet Programs. Units should be developing esprit de corps with all unit members and not a selected group.

It's not a HMRS thing, it's a NCWG Ranger program thing.  Yes, we allow them to wear them if they've earned them.  Yes, we allow NESA t-shirts, MERSAR t-shirts, etc.  I wear my NESA shirts all the time.

The Rangers typically want to run that extra 1/2 mile, so we let them.  No harm in it.

:clap:

[Storm Chaser]

Yes, we allow them to wear them if they've earned them.

Hopefully ONLY while doing PT, as CAPM 39-1 specifically states that a black t-shirt "will be worn under the BDU shirt."

The Rangers typically want to run that extra 1/2 mile, so we let them.  No harm in it.

What is everyone else doing while they wait for the "Rangers" to finish their "esprit de corps" extra 1/2 mile?

On second thought, the discussion is not worth it. Let's get back to PT uniforms.

[Spam]

There are a couple of very good reasons to have a white (or light) colored Squadron T shirt for PT:  one, a black unit T during hot weather simply isn't as good a choice as white in terms of heat loads, and two, a white unit T shirt is far better for safety (visibility) while running a mile after dark on fall/winter/spring PT nights.

V/R,
Spam

[Panzerbjorn]

Yes, we allow them to wear them if they've earned them.

Hopefully ONLY while doing PT, as CAPM 39-1 specifically states that a black t-shirt "will be worn under the BDU shirt."

The Rangers typically want to run that extra 1/2 mile, so we let them.  No harm in it.

What is everyone else doing while they wait for the "Rangers" to finish their "esprit de corps" extra 1/2 mile?

On second thought, the discussion is not worth it. Let's get back to PT uniforms.

Did I at any time mention that they wore the orange t-shirts beyond PT?  As you said, stick to PT uniforms.  I agree it's not worth discussing what my cadets are doing for the 3 to 5 minutes it takes to run a 1/2 mile unless you're dying to know exactly the method the scores are recorded and what cheers the cadets are doing in the course of that five minutes.

[Storm Chaser]

Negative. Cheers!

[Panzerbjorn]

I was having a bad day, and my response was much snottier than it should have been. I apologize.

[Ned]

All:

The NCAC is responding to a request from the national leadership for their opinion concerning PT uniforms, concerning which -- as been correctly noted here --  the 39-1 is largely silent.  Cadets engage in a vigorous physical fitness program and typically spend a significant amount of their time engaged in sports and other fitness activities, including the CPFT.

The NCAC's collective wisdom will be very helpful as we determine what -- if any -- changes to make to the 39-1 and related doctrine on this issue.  It sounds as if the NCAC has decided to seek additional input from cadets and other stakeholders on the issue before providing their advice to the Gen Vasquez.

Which is exactly their job, and it appears that they are doing it well.

Perhaps someone from the NCAC will publish the results of their survey here.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Officer

[Майор Хаткевич]

What of the rumors of trying to remove PT from being an active component of the progression system? Is that shelved?

[Ned]

What of the rumors of trying to remove PT from being an active component of the progression system? Is that shelved?

I think we have a thread or two on this issue somewhere.

The issue is that we are being forced to change the CPFT because we based our test on the widely-used Presidential Fitness Test, which in turn was based on real-world testing and data for young Americans in our age cohort.

But the Presdient's Council has discontinued the old test and it is no longer supported.  Their new test, the PYFP is far more holistic and includes things like a body composition measurement.  Ultimately, the results of the assessment do not include anything resembling a numerical score, but rather simply assigns students to one of three "zones:" the Healthy Fitness Zone (HFZ), the Needs Improvement Zone (NI), or the Needs Improvement - Health Risk Zone (NI-HR).

So we have engaged in a conversation with our cadets and other stakeholders about modifications to the CPFT, and absolutely no decisions have been made.

As part of that conversation, we have been discussing whether it is a good idea to de-couple specific achievements and promotions from a PT test.  There are several  considerations at play - first, if the whatever the new CPFT winds up being, it might take longer to administer.  And that would impact time available at the unit.  It might make more sense to treat PT like we currently treat Character Development -- as long as a cadet has passed (the new CPFT) in the current quarter, they are good to go.

As you can imagine, there is not yet anything approaching a consensus on the way forward.

(And if it helps, in my Army career my promotions were not tied to specific scores on the APFT.  As long as I had hit the minimums (and not subsequently flunked) sometime in the last six months I was good to go.  Also, the longer I was in the Army, my standards actually went down since old guys didn't need to be as strong or fast as the young folks.)

So we have a lot of conversation ahead of us.  But no decisions have been made.  No changes are pending.  We are still figuring it out, and welcome any and all input.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Thank you for the clarification. I knew there were talks, but not their extent.

[Storm Chaser]

I was having a bad day, and my response was much snottier than it should have been. I apologize.

No need to apologize. It's just CAP Talk. Hope your day got better.

[PHall]

I was having a bad day, and my response was much snottier than it should have been. I apologize.

Which is why it's a really good idea to not post if you're mad at someone/something.
Walk away and come back later. We'll still be here!

[Capt Thompson]

Incidentally, Vanguard does sell the ash grey "Leisure" t-shirt, blue shorts, gray hoodie etc. If I'm not mistaken, in the old bookstore catalog these items were identified as the PT Uniform, I'll have to dig one out and see. The only time I've ever actually seen them in person was at Encampment, a few cadets had them then.

When I was a cadet, we had a "Cadet Basic Uniform" that we had all of the new cadets wear, which consisted of a black t-shirt (needed eventually for BDU's anyway) and blue jeans (everyone has them). That allowed the new cadets to have a uniform look until they could acquire BDU's and Blues. For PT the jeans became black shorts, so that's what we always used. We did have changing facilities, but usually stayed in PT's for the whole meeting, we just planned activities accordingly. After PT would be drill, then maybe an ES class outside, and an outdoor AE class (rocketry or some other outdoor project).

Vanguard sells the ash gray PT's for $9.20 for the t-shirt, $16.20 for the sweatshirt, $21.60 for the hoodie and $24.50 for the blue shorts. If we did ever have an official PT uniform, which I doubt we ever will, I'm assuming this would be the uniform chosen, since these items have been around for at least 20 years.

[Salty]

I just picked up the ash grey shirt with the plane on the back and the navy blue shorts from VG for just that reason actually.  Absent an official PT uniform I figured the leisure stuff from VG would fit the bill when I participated in PT with the cadets in my squadron.  Might as well wear officially branded clothes for official activities.