Standardized G/W

[Eclipse]

4) Members apparently don't think about cost involved in implementing some of these ideas on a large scale.

Negligible assuming the same policies regarding what is optional are used for both styles.

$10 for a hat isn't going to kill anyone, the rest fixes itself via wear-out dates.

[abdsp51]

$10 for a hat isn't going to kill anyone, the rest fixes itself via wear-out dates.

But that 10 adds up with the number of people that it would impact. 

[Eclipse]

No, it's $10 per person, regardless of the number of people.

You can't look at an impact like this as collective.

[arajca]

Few things I take away from with the majority of the discussions

1) The established color of "medium grey" people have a hard time knowing what it is.

"Medium grey" is not an industry standard color. I have five pairs of "medium grey" trousers. None of them are the same color, and NOT as a result of fading. I had two that matched since I bought them at the same time. I have since replaced one with the same item number and color from the same vendor, and it is a different shade of grey, but still called "medium grey."

2) Members wearing G/W will never be happy until they get a coat and hat.

To clarify 'coat' - a coat we can display our awards on in the same manner as the AF service coat.

3) Members wanting change will not or have not even bothered submitting the recommendation through the channels to try and get their ideas implemented. 

Many of us have, only for our suggestions to go 'somewhere', never to be seen or heard of again. Some of us have had this experience multiple times.

4) Members apparently don't think about cost involved in implementing some of these ideas on a large scale.

We do think about cost, which is why we've looked at existing items that can be adopted or easily modified. If you want to consider folks not thinking about cost, look at how many tens of thousands of dollars were wasted when the NEC killed the CSU.

[Shuman 14]

AAFES already sells the Shirt, Shoes and Belt...just need to get the items approved for our members to purchase.  The AAFES price on the shirt is $20.00

The white shirt sold at the Air Force MCSS is for the semiformal uniform; at an Army MCSS you will only find the Army Service Uniform white shirt with permanent military creases.

So change the wording to allow for military creases. They allow 50 different shades of grey, those professional creases will not stop the Earth from spinning. 

[Shuman 14]

No ever asks "Why do I have to wear the USAF blue pants and shirt when I wear the USAF-style uniform". 

The color choice is simple... it must match the grey of the rank slides to provide a "uniform" appearance.

Cut/style... must match the USAF pants in cut/style to provide a "uniform" appearance.

Material... must match the USAF pants in material make up and blend to provide a "uniform" appearance.

Sense  Since the trend here... its must provide a "uniform" appearance.

Christ how hard is this... it's a UNIFORM not clean out your closet day. 

FTFY since you're not detecting anything in this regard.

Nope I had it right the first time, but thanks sooo much. 

[Shuman 14]

4) Members apparently don't think about cost involved in implementing some of these ideas on a large scale. 

Hey the Grey/White wears have been getting over for too long.

How dare they not have to buy a flight cap like the trim and skinned USAF-style uniform wearers.

Time for them to pony up and be forced to buy a flight cap too. 

[abdsp51]

So change the wording to allow for military creases. They allow 50 different shades of grey, those professional creases will not stop the Earth from spinning. 

Why? The manual is based off of 36-2903 now and they are not allowed per the host service.  If you like them so much go play with another org who allows it.

[lordmonar]

Okay......let's look at what it means to standardize our gray slacks.

The USAF has an office that does nothing but checks the quality of the uniforms supplied to AAFES from varioius suppliers.   Also any small shop tailor can submit samples for approval.

We would have to establish a CAP office like that.   They would have pick the shade and material that would be the standard.
Then someone would have to contract with a supplier or supplies to produce them.   We would then have to tell our people "this is the place you have to go to get your uniform pants".

We can't just say "any pants that look like USAF slacks and match the gray on our rank sleeves".....because a) You will not be able find them......and b) too many people with say "close enough" and we are exactly where we are today.

That's what we have to do just to get the existing uniform up to a uniform standard.

So now you want a service coat, and a garrison cap....and I would suspect you all would want a service cap too.......just more or the same.

Now....I'm for it.....I know how much a USAF officer's uniform costs these days.....so you are looking at that price...plus some because it will be a low volume specialty item.  So....$179 for a service Coat, $40 for pants, $14-18 for a shirt, $15 for a hat, $6 tie, $3 Belt and $45 for shoes.

So...the minimum basic uniform goes from any medium gray slacks that you may have in your closet today, any black bet you may already have in your dresser, any black shoes that you may have in your closet today, and a white aviator's shirts that you can buy fro $15-25..........to at least $117.

If they want a service coat and service cap.....that $179 for the coat, and $42 for the service cap.

And this does not factor in that possible cost increase or any mark up Vanguard may want to be the point of sale.


So......That is not an insignificant dollar figure and it is one that any CAP/CC for a day will have to contend with if they wanted to just make this happen.

[Spaceman3750]

Lordmonar's plan also does not factor in Eclipse's good point - this uniform is designed for our large members, and we are not all built the same. A slender or straight-cut pant like the USAF style will not work.

[lordmonar]

Lordmonar's plan also does not factor in Eclipse's good point - this uniform is designed for our large members, and we are not all built the same. A slender or straight-cut pant like the USAF style will not work.

Which would mean even higher cost for those who had to wear the G/W due to weight.

[Eclipse]

So change the wording to allow for military creases. They allow 50 different shades of grey, those professional creases will not stop the Earth from spinning.

If the Army is comfortable wearing security guard shirts, good on them, we don't need them.

[AlphaSigOU]

So what's so difficult about standardization on the corporates? Vanguard can source them from Fechheimer (www.fechheimer.com), who makes commercial versions of Air Force and Navy uniforms, as well as police and fire uniforms.

Here's a white replica of the AF-style 'Class B' (service uniform) shirt:

Flying Cross Duro Long Sleeve Poplin Shirt
Flying Cross Duro Short Sleeve Poplin Shirt

(Look, Ma, no pesky military creases! Zoom in...)

And they even have trousers, too!

Command Men's 4 Pocket Pants Tropical Lighter Weight

And it's not too much of a stretch to spec out a service dress jacket in the same color as the trousers.

Yeah, I know... I'm just preaching to the choir... )

[Shuman 14]

So change the wording to allow for military creases. They allow 50 different shades of grey, those professional creases will not stop the Earth from spinning. 

Why? The manual is based off of 36-2903 now and they are not allowed per the host service.  If you like them so much go play with another org who allows it.

Hey I'm just suggesting a shirt that is already in the AAFES system which would be easily obtainable by CAP, reasonably priced and can be special ordered in triple extra portly for our larger members.

But if that logic escapes you... 

[Shuman 14]

So change the wording to allow for military creases. They allow 50 different shades of grey, those professional creases will not stop the Earth from spinning.

If the Army is comfortable wearing security guard shirts, good on them, we don't need them.

If the ASU shirts are security guard shirts then the current CAP Grey/White shirts are janitor shirts... I'm just saying. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Which is why I have compiled a White Paper on the subject of (relatively) minimum change to the G/W...free to all who wish to read it.

I have posted it here several times, and those who grouse the most about my griping about the status quo and not having any ideas of my own are the ones who refuse to read and comment on my ideas!

As far as grey trouser standardisation, why not use the USMA colour as a baseline?

[arajca]

Which is why I have compiled a White Paper on the subject of (relatively) minimum change to the G/W...free to all who wish to read it.

I have posted it here several times, and those who grouse the most about my griping about the status quo and not having any ideas of my own are the ones who refuse to read and comment on my ideas!

As far as grey trouser standardisation, why not use the USMA colour as a baseline?

It's a good paper.

A more common and, dare I say it, INDUSTRY STANDARD, color is Heather Grey. Most fabric manufacturers have a heather grey that matches other fabric manufacturers' heather grey. It's also common among law enforcement (and security) agencies.

As for shirts, here is yet another source for AF styled white shirts. http://www.garffshirts.com/pilot-shirts-aviator-poplin-pilot-uniform-shirts.aspx

[Garp]

CAP's Corporate-style uniforms facilitate a professional image for members who choose not to or cannot wear the USAF-style uniform. These uniforms are meant to complement, but not replace, the USAF-style uniform. They facilitate member uniformity while neither imposing nor authorizing a military uniform substitute for the USAF-style uniform. Corporate-style uniforms are simpler in design and cost is minimized by making most badges and devices optional for wear.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CAP's Corporate-style uniforms facilitate a professional image for members who choose not to or cannot wear the USAF-style uniform. These uniforms are meant to complement, but not replace, the USAF-style uniform. They facilitate member uniformity while neither imposing nor authorizing a military uniform substitute for the USAF-style uniform. Corporate-style uniforms are simpler in design and cost is minimized by making most badges and devices optional for wear.

Your point?

[arajca]

CAP's Corporate-style uniforms facilitate a professional image for members who choose not to or cannot wear the USAF-style uniform. These uniforms are meant to complement, but not replace, the USAF-style uniform. They facilitate member uniformity while neither imposing nor authorizing a military uniform substitute for the USAF-style uniform. Corporate-style uniforms are simpler in design and cost is minimized by making most badges and devices optional for wear.

Gotta call BS on several points here:
1. They do not complement the AF style uniform. They are so distinctly as to easily be from two different organizations, until you get up close.
2. They DO replace the AF style uniform for those of us who have no choice.
3. They do NOT facilitate uniformity because there are no easily met standards. When asked directly, national said any white shirt with epaulets, two flapped pockets, and no military creases meets the standards.
4. Most badges and devices are optional on the AF style uniforms as well.
5. Cost was minimized (somewhat) by sacrificing uniformity of the uniform.
6. CAP does use military style awards, devices, and grade. Therefore a military style uniform IS appropriate.