Firearms on Ground Teams

[Brit_in_CAP]

^ exactly.

I like my frappuccino with a double shot of expresso, no pun intended. 

I like Starbucks and Chipotle too much to bring my shootin' eyerons to CAP or any other activities.

:clap: :clap:

[blackrain]

Bear spray is good....as long as you can get the bear to stay down wind.

I like Starbucks too.....I use the drive thru......but too many shots of espresso makes my aim a little shakey 

I agree long guns in a Chipotle was over the top however. Even seeing law enforcement with long guns in a restaurant can make some people nervous.

Now in the lower 48 bear attacks are still possible but cougar attacks (4 legged not 2 legged) are a possibility in most states. As for the 2 legged nothing can protect you when they are inebriated and going wild at the local VFW. I won't say how I know

[JeffDG]

Bear spray is good....as long as you can get the bear to stay down wind.

[Eclipse]

Pepper spray is just people seasoning for a bear.

It's kinda funny when you think about the average suburbanite - they freak out if they see a raccoon near their garbage,
or a skunk in their back yard, and if the word "coyote" is hinted in the presence of Fluffy, the dog is sentenced to a life time
of looking at the world through glass...

...but they will sleep in an area where 600-lb 9 foot carnivorous beasts with no fear of man are known to be hanging out,
"protected" only by a thin piece of nylon and their theoretical ability to shoot a metal projectile forward faster then
fecal matter backward when one of these things tears through the tent.

[sardak]

Pepper spray is just people seasoning for a bear.

Standard means of identifying grizzly bear scat from other bear scat (if size isn't a clue) - it smells like pepper and contains small bells.

Mike

[Luis R. Ramos]

...they freak out if they see a raccoon near their garbage...

Racoon? Smaller than that! Just tell a suburbanite there is a rat.

They flee and panic!

[SARDOC]

Private or Public organization is irrelevant.  Try carrying a gun into a Federal Courthouse.  If you aren't a Federal Law Enforcement officer, you might as well leave it in the car.  State and Local law enforcement can't even carry firearms into the Federal Courthouse even when on official business.

[GSARmedic]

Jumping into the deep end on my first post here.

I've been out of CAP since 2005, but debating on whether to return or not. I started as a Cadet in New Jersey and moved to Central Florida in 2002, finally becoming a 2nd Lt SM.

I mention that because NJ is a highly restricted firearms state, no one other than law enforcement is authorized to carry a concealed firearm, unless they get the expressed permission of the County Sheriff and can prove a need to carry. [The only exception is retired LEO's]. Florida however, is a lot more free about their CCW permits. Take a class, submit your prints and send in the fee and you're good to go.

In NJ, as a cadet on a AFRCC sanctioned "real" mission of an ELT which ended up being an EPIRB, we finally located the signal coming from the cabin of a small fishing boat that was secured by a lock. We notified the local State Police department which sent an officer to the scene and make contact with the owner of the boat. [At that time the NJSP had access to all the boating registration records for both private and commercial vessels] They were unable to make contact with the boat's owner for several hours. As dawn, and more important to the SP officer, shift change approached, the officer asked: "What's it going to take for you to end your search and go home?" To which the GTL replied "We need to shut the signal off before we can leave." He then asked us to step off the boat, drew his .45, shot the lock twice, opened the door to the cabin, and had the GTL shut the unit off. [Bad use of a firearm, at least it would be by a CAP GTM. So I don't condone this use]

That was my first experience with firearms while on a ground team.

Fast forward a few years and 1,000 miles to Florida. While at a SAREx, training as a cadet still, we were in the Ocala National Forest, and we were training with a separate search dog team. While prosecuting the location of a training ELT and using the dog to track the "victim", my hasty team came across a brood of juvenile water mochasins/cottonmouths. We backed away only to run into a full grown 4 foot long adult cotton mouth. (Maybe it was Mama) In any case, the dog was the first to hit on the snake and the handler (who was not a CAP member), saw the snake, drew his own pistol from a concealed pocket holster, and shot the snake in the head. Killing it before it could kill the dog or bite one of us. [Perfect use of a firearm and a strong reason to carry a firearm while on a ground team.]

Besides being a GTM since I was 14, I was an EMT when I turned 16 and worked in rural, suburb, and urban (Atlantic City and Orlando) areas. I have been shot at by gang members while trying to pick up a victim of a drive-by even after the "Scene was secured by the PD", I've been chased and shot at while in an ambulance by a vehicle that contained the original shooters who didn't want my patient to survive. It's scary. You are not allowed to carry a firearm on an ambulance pretty much anywhere. I was defenseless. All I was trying to do was save a life. [The same reason many of us/you go out there on these SAR missions, that's what the R stands for, Rescue] It was in those moments that I wish I had a firearm to stop the guys shooting at me. To defend myself.

When I originally went through my GTM training at the NJWG Spring SAR school, we were taught to emulate the USAF pararescue and their motto: "These things we do, That others may live." I have no problem putting myself in danger, after measured calculation of the apparent risks, in order to save the life of another, no matter who or what they are. There are accounts of missions here in Florida where GTMs have been surprised by wildlife including snakes and alligators and had nothing to protect themselves with. Most were able to flee, other's had to stand and fight, using sticks, rocks, or in one case a hatchet and tri-fold shovel.

Short Aside:
For those of you who are not in Florida, there is a FLWG supplement to 900-3. FLWGR 900-3 S1 and a FLWGF 19 for the acknowledgement by the wing that an off duty LEO can carry a concealed weapon while conducting CAP buisness and in CAP uniform in order to comply with regulations by the state that LEO's be armed and able to respond to an emergent situation instantly.

When I walk into a dangerous environment, I want to be prepared. And no matter how much risk evaluation you do before undertaking a mission, things change in an instant. I can't plan on not running into any dangerous wildlife while searching the woods in the middle of the night. I can't plan on not running into an armed person "protecting their property" whether it is legal or illegal while I am searching in the rural areas for an ELT.

I'm not saying that a UDF Team should be able to carry a firearm. Though walking around in the middle of Camden, NJ with a DF unit wearing BDUs may attract some unwanted attention and possibly some harassment. But I do think that GTMs out in the middle of the wilderness should be able to defend themselves from wildlife, or in the extremely rare survival situation, have the ability to use a firearm to hunt. Any firearms should be concealed, not in a tactical thigh holster like some Tier 1 operator wannabe. A sub-compact pistol like a .40 Glock 27, which easily fits into a normal pants pocket and carries 9 or more rounds is more than enough to DEFEND yourself.

Like I said, my main concern for a GT would be wildlife, especially alligators here in FL, but there is also the possibility of being confronted by someone else who is armed while you are on a mission. I'm recalling my disaster relief missions after Hurricanes Irene and Jeanne in the panhandle of FL, but what about our Louisiana Wing GTs after Katrina? I'm sure there were safety concerns that hindered CAP GTs from being fully effective in their disaster relief efforts. In the panhandle, we were mindful and slightly on edge for any looting attempts or raiding of our personal supplies. CAP safety officials would tell you to let the aggressor take what ever they want and to not resist. But who's going to replace my $1000+ of personal comm gear and other SAR equipment? Certainly not CAP! They wouldn't pay for it the first time. Why would I expect them to cover the loss.

If as a citizen I am allowed to defend myself with a firearm, why should the fact that I am searching for a missing person or an ELT rob me of that same right to defend myself from unforeseen dangers?

[PHall]

Jumping into the deep end on my first post here.
If as a citizen I am allowed to defend myself with a firearm, why should the fact that I am searching for a missing person or an ELT rob me of that same right to defend myself from unforeseen dangers?

The people who made up the rules for this organization said "no guns". And you swore to obey the rules of this organization when you joined.

If you don't wish to follow that rule there are other oganizations you can join that also serve the community that may let you be armed while in the field.
But in CAP it's not allowed. Simple as that.

[LSThiker]

To which the GTL replied "We need to shut the signal off before we can leave."

Not only was that a reckless use of a firearm, but the GTL was in the wrong.  You can leave without shutting off an ELT.  If the police were aware of the situation and were on scene, then you can pass it off to the police.  The IC would call the NOC and inform them of the situation.  Mission over.

We backed away only to run into a full grown 4 foot long adult cotton mouth. (Maybe it was Mama) In any case, the dog was the first to hit on the snake and the handler (who was not a CAP member), saw the snake, drew his own pistol from a concealed pocket holster, and shot the snake in the head. Killing it before it could kill the dog or bite one of us.

So you immediately make the assumption it was going to kill?  It was protecting its young, not out to kill.  In the thousands of snakes (poisonous and non-poisonous) that I have encountered, a simple backing away without provocation has always worked.

There are accounts of missions here in Florida where GTMs have been surprised by wildlife including snakes and alligators and had nothing to protect themselves with. Most were able to flee, other's had to stand and fight, using sticks, rocks, or in one case a hatchet and tri-fold shovel.

Interesting that you automatically assume that a gun is the only form of protection.  You said they had nothing to protect themselves, yet you listed ways of protecting yourself.  Sticks, rocks, blunt force objects are all means of protection.  Fleeing is also a form of protection.  That thing that sits between your ears that allowed humans to become the dominant animal is the greatest form of protection. 

When I walk into a dangerous environment, I want to be prepared. And no matter how much risk evaluation you do before undertaking a mission, things change in an instant. I can't plan on not running into any dangerous wildlife while searching the woods in the middle of the night. I can't plan on not running into an armed person "protecting their property" whether it is legal or illegal while I am searching in the rural areas for an ELT.

The best form of preparing for dangerous wildlife is educate yourself.  The better you understand the animal's behavior, the easier it is evade, flee, and protect yourself.  Also, there are other alternative forms of protection that do not require the use of firearms.  Since this is the second time you associate protection with gun, I suggest you educate yourself in order to be prepared.

But I do think that GTMs out in the middle of the wilderness should be able to defend themselves from wildlife, or in the extremely rare survival situation, have the ability to use a firearm to hunt.

If they cannot defend themselves from wildlife, then perhaps they are not prepared to be on a GT.  Also, in a survival situation, food is actually not a high priority as you can live weeks without food.  If you are worried about that rare survival situation, then I would suggest:

carrying a water purification system
know how to start a fire using a bow-method or hand-method (and actually do it, not just watch a video)
know and actually perform how to set-up a shelter

If as a citizen I am allowed to defend myself with a firearm, why should the fact that I am searching for a missing person or an ELT rob me of that same right to defend myself from unforeseen dangers?

Because CAP is a private corporation that has exercised its Constitutional Rights to limit the use of firearms and you have agreed to abide by that rule by signing the membership. 

[THRAWN]

In NJ, as a cadet on a AFRCC sanctioned "real" mission of an ELT which ended up being an EPIRB, we finally located the signal coming from the cabin of a small fishing boat that was secured by a lock. We notified the local State Police department which sent an officer to the scene and make contact with the owner of the boat. [At that time the NJSP had access to all the boating registration records for both private and commercial vessels] They were unable to make contact with the boat's owner for several hours. As dawn, and more important to the SP officer, shift change approached, the officer asked: "What's it going to take for you to end your search and go home?" To which the GTL replied "We need to shut the signal off before we can leave." He then asked us to step off the boat, drew his .45, shot the lock twice, opened the door to the cabin, and had the GTL shut the unit off. [Bad use of a firearm, at least it would be by a CAP GTM. So I don't condone this use]

That was my first experience with firearms while on a ground team.

Bull. No other way to say it. Any trooper that did that would find himself guarding that plane full of rubber stuff Maverick would have been flying.

[Eclipse]

To which the GTL replied "We need to shut the signal off before we can leave."

Incorrect, which helps invalidate any false justification of the destruction of private property.

Fast forward a few years and 1,000 miles to Florida. While at a SAREx, training as a cadet still, we were in the Ocala National Forest, and we were training with a separate search dog team. While prosecuting the location of a training ELT and using the dog to track the "victim", my hasty team came across a brood of juvenile water mochasins/cottonmouths. We backed away only to run into a full grown 4 foot long adult cotton mouth. (Maybe it was Mama) In any case, the dog was the first to hit on the snake and the handler (who was not a CAP member), saw the snake, drew his own pistol from a concealed pocket holster, and shot the snake in the head. Killing it before it could kill the dog or bite one of us. [Perfect use of a firearm and a strong reason to carry a firearm while on a ground team.]

Perfect example of a poor training plan, lack of ORM, and pretty much zero common sense.

Besides being a GTM since I was 14, I was an EMT when I turned 16 and worked in rural, suburb, and urban (Atlantic City and Orlando) areas. I have been shot at by gang members while trying to pick up a victim of a drive-by even after the "Scene was secured by the PD", I've been chased and shot at while in an ambulance by a vehicle that contained the original shooters who didn't want my patient to survive. It's scary. You are not allowed to carry a firearm on an ambulance pretty much anywhere. I was defenseless. All I was trying to do was save a life. [The same reason many of us/you go out there on these SAR missions, that's what the R stands for, Rescue] It was in those moments that I wish I had a firearm to stop the guys shooting at me. To defend myself.

Bad situation, irrelevant to a CAP conversation.

When I originally went through my GTM training at the NJWG Spring SAR school, we were taught to emulate the USAF pararescue and their motto: "These things we do, That others may live." I have no problem putting myself in danger, after measured calculation of the apparent risks, in order to save the life of another, no matter who or what they are. There are accounts of missions here in Florida where GTMs have been surprised by wildlife including snakes and alligators and had nothing to protect themselves with. Most were able to flee, other's had to stand and fight, using sticks, rocks, or in one case a hatchet and tri-fold shovel.

When I walk into a dangerous environment, I want to be prepared. And no matter how much risk evaluation you do before undertaking a mission, things change in an instant. I can't plan on not running into any dangerous wildlife while searching the woods in the middle of the night. I can't plan on not running into an armed person "protecting their property" whether it is legal or illegal while I am searching in the rural areas for an ELT.

I'm not saying that a UDF Team should be able to carry a firearm. Though walking around in the middle of Camden, NJ with a DF unit wearing BDUs may attract some unwanted attention and possibly some harassment. But I do think that GTMs out in the middle of the wilderness should be able to defend themselves from wildlife, or in the extremely rare survival situation, have the ability to use a firearm to hunt. Any firearms should be concealed, not in a tactical thigh holster like some Tier 1 operator wannabe. A sub-compact pistol like a .40 Glock 27, which easily fits into a normal pants pocket and carries 9 or more rounds is more than enough to DEFEND yourself.

Like I said, my main concern for a GT would be wildlife, especially alligators here in FL, but there is also the possibility of being confronted by someone else who is armed while you are on a mission. I'm recalling my disaster relief missions after Hurricanes Irene and Jeanne in the panhandle of FL, but what about our Louisiana Wing GTs after Katrina? I'm sure there were safety concerns that hindered CAP GTs from being fully effective in their disaster relief efforts. In the panhandle, we were mindful and slightly on edge for any looting attempts or raiding of our personal supplies. CAP safety officials would tell you to let the aggressor take what ever they want and to not resist. But who's going to replace my $1000+ of personal comm gear and other SAR equipment? Certainly not CAP! They wouldn't pay for it the first time. Why would I expect them to cover the loss.

If as a citizen I am allowed to defend myself with a firearm, why should the fact that I am searching for a missing person or an ELT rob me of that same right to defend myself from unforeseen dangers?

Again, if you're being "surprised by wildlife" or, as a CAP member, are in any way in danger, the ORM is incorrect.  There is no reason to
send CAP members into hazardous areas WHATSOEVER.  We can fly over areas to find the objective, and point at it for paid professionals
who are properly equipped and trained.

Put frankly, there are many, MANY missions CAP members simply have no business being involved in, and I would say your anecdotes above are excellent examples.

[Panache]

In any case, the dog was the first to hit on the snake and the handler (who was not a CAP member), saw the snake, drew his own pistol from a concealed pocket holster, and shot the snake in the head.

Shooting a snake in the head with a handgun is no easy feat.  There's a reason they make snakeshot ammo...

Call me skeptical.

[lordmonar]

If as a citizen I am allowed to defend myself with a firearm, why should the fact that I am searching for a missing person or an ELT rob me of that same right to defend myself from unforeseen dangers?

It doesn't.   BEING A CAP MEMBER you agree to follow CAP rules.   Completely voluntary.   You don't need to be a CAP member.  And if you don't follow CAP rules you my find that you are not a CAP member.

It is that simple.

You want to start your own SAR organization.....go for it.  You want to play with our SAR organization you follow our rules.

[Panzerbjorn]

Normally, I completely advocate going easy on a first-poster.  But, after reading GSARMedic's anecdotes, I started to wonder if I had come across another Mall Ninja.  For those who don't know what I'm talking about, please refer to this webpage: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

There's not a whole lot new I could contribute to this thread that others have already screamed to the tops of their lungs.  Firearms just have no place on a CAP ground team unless you are in a State like Alaska that have legislation requiring you to have one.  Period.  The End. Next Topic Please.

Frankly, GSARMedic (sorry, bud), based on his anecdotes, would be a prime example of someone I wouldn't trust to carry a firearm on a ground team.  Nothing personal, but he wouldn't be alone in that category of people in CAP I wouldn't trust to use good judgement with a firearm.  I trust those who reluctantly carry them only because they have no other choice.  I don't trust those who really want to carry them because they might run into a snake on a search line.  But because of the liability, regs, and just the plain fact that they're not necessary for what we do, that should be the end of any discussion to it.

[Panzerbjorn]

Oh, by the way...hunting with them on a GSAR mission is not a valid reason by any stretch of the imagination. If you're hunting with a firearm, it's because not only have you gone through all the supplies in your 72-hour kit, it's also because you are now lost and have become the mission.  First rule of SAR is don't become the mission.

[Flying Pig]

"Short Aside:
For those of you who are not in Florida, there is a FLWG supplement to 900-3. FLWGR 900-3 S1 and a FLWGF 19 for the acknowledgement by the wing that an off duty LEO can carry a concealed weapon while conducting CAP business and in CAP uniform in order to comply with regulations by the state that LEO's be armed and able to respond to an emergent situation instantly."

Can you cite what state law requires LEOs to be armed off duty?  I am in FL.  There is no "law" in FL that I know of that requires officers to be armed off-duty. Although I will admit I am new to FL LE.   Many agencies have policies that either require it, or highly recommend it and have guidelines in place for discipline if you are involved in an incident and were not armed.  But then there are also several exceptions... if you have been drinking, at a private place that does not allow firearms, in a place of worship, Federal Court or other secure federal buildings.  Heck.... several local courts in FL have policies that officers testifying on-duty in court in civilian clothes have to store their weapons.  Even for plain clothes detectives. 

Its great that FL recognizes that many FL LEOs walk a line where they face discipline at work vs being able to volunteer.  But there are also many places where CAP operates where cops cant bring guns.   Military bases for one... So Im a CAP member on an activity complying with my agency policy, supported by the FLWG supplement.  I can tell you the USAF security police at Eglin AFB don't care that my Sheriff wants me to carry a gun.  So now what?  Do I wait in the car while everyone else goes on their base tour?  Or was this a case where I could have just opted out of carrying my gun off-duty for the day? 

[AirDX]

Read the source documents - it's not in response to a FL law.  The FLWG Form 19 asks the submitter, "Have you attached a copy of your POLICE AGENCY written policy requiring you to carry a firearm when off duty?"

No FL law - only maybe a local policy.

[LSThiker]

While prosecuting the location of a training ELT and using the dog to track the "victim", my hasty team came across a brood of juvenile water mochasins/cottonmouths. We backed away only to run into a full grown 4 foot long adult cotton mouth. (Maybe it was Mama) In any case, the dog was the first to hit on the snake and the handler (who was not a CAP member), saw the snake, drew his own pistol from a concealed pocket holster, and shot the snake in the head. Killing it before it could kill the dog or bite one of us. [Perfect use of a firearm and a strong reason to carry a firearm while on a ground team.]

In my hastiness of posting, I did not apply critical thinking on this.  Some species of snakes will protect its young after hatching for a short period.  However, cottonmouths are oviviparous.  Once the eggs hatch inside the mother and she "gives birth", she immediately abandons them.  The young snakes do not stay together and start to leave the area after birth.  So I am doubting this story. 

[Flying Pig]

Read the source documents - it's not in response to a FL law.  The FLWG Form 19 asks the submitter, "Have you attached a copy of your POLICE AGENCY written policy requiring you to carry a firearm when off duty?"

No FL law - only maybe a local policy.

Right... my question was that the original poster said.  That in FL "regulations by the state that LEO's be armed and able to respond to an emergent situation instantly."   Not sure what State "Regulation" requires that.   I work for an LE agency in FL so I was clarifying.   No cops that I know of knew of any "state regulation".  So if someone is arguing the point about carrying in CAP uniform, probably a good idea to keep it in the proper context.