Red Service Ribbon

[taylor914]

I have been in CAP for 2.5 years now and I know at 2 years you're qualified to wear the Red Service Ribbon.  My Yeager and Membership awards show up in my member search report.  Should the service award show up as well before I am authorized to wear the ribbon?  Do I have to fill out paperwork or something to be authorized?  Or do I just wear it since I'm past the 2 year mark and am in good standing?

[Eclipse]

Red Service does not appear in eServices.

Ask your CC if he wants to do the Form.  Some insist on a form for everything, some, like myself, see the
self-actualizing decorations as being just that.  To me the RSR is awarded based on the calendar, not the whim
of a CC.  It's not like he could deny it.

With that said, your CC may want to actually recognize it, so again, best to ask him.

[taylor914]

Thanks for the advice Eclipse.  I get so confused with all of the regs and forms and uniform requirements.

[Panache]

My CC requests that nobody wears it until he has a chance to formally "award" it during the monthly promotion-and-award night, but that's only because he likes giving out awards and promotions.  If you choose to wear it as soon as your eligible, that's fine with him too.

[Storm Chaser]

If you want the ribbon, I strongly recommend you complete the CAPF 2A and have it approved by the appropriate commander. The reason being is that, while eServices shows the date you joined CAP, it doesn't show any lapse in membership. As time passes and if you move units later on, you may need to go out of your way to document an award that you can easily get approve now.

[Private Investigator]

When I was CC I like passing out SWAG. Some Squadrons have created their own Cerificate for the Red Service Ribbon too.

Congratulations and thank you for your service.   

[Mitchell 1969]

On a related note - isn't it about time that we just started calling it the "Service Ribbon" instead of "Red Service Ribbon?" It's not as if we still had the Blue Service Ribbon and White Service Ribbon anymore. What's it been - 40 + years since they went away?

[vento]

On a related note - isn't it about time that we just started calling it the "Service Ribbon" instead of "Red Service Ribbon?" It's not as if we still had the Blue Service Ribbon and White Service Ribbon anymore. What's it been - 40 + years since they went away?

Isn't the Blue Service Ribbon called Command Service Ribbon nowadays? Or are they totally different animals?

[SarDragon]

Totally different.

[Mitchell 1969]

On a related note - isn't it about time that we just started calling it the "Service Ribbon" instead of "Red Service Ribbon?" It's not as if we still had the Blue Service Ribbon and White Service Ribbon anymore. What's it been - 40 + years since they went away?

Isn't the Blue Service Ribbon called Command Service Ribbon nowadays? Or are they totally different animals?

Totally different. The service ribbons used to be Red, White, Blue. Cadets were not eligible to earn them. I forget the service requirements, but they were awarded in that order. Only one was worn at a time - earn White, drop Red. Earn Blue, drop White.

Blue and White were eliminated in favor of the clasp/numbers arrangement on the Red and cadets were made eligible to earn it. I won't swear to it, but 1971 sticks in my mind as when it all changed.

[vento]

^^^ Thanks for the history.    :clap:

[SarDragon]

My sources confirm the 1971 date, which leads me to question whether or not I wore a Red Service ribbon as a cadet. I thought I did. I don't have a period 39-3 to confirm the current rules.

[pierson777]

Eservices does not track activity and service ribbons.  Awarding the Red Service Ribbon requires a CAPF 2a.  The wing commander is the approving authority for all activity and service ribbons, however the wing commander may delegate this authority to subordinate unit commanders. 

Submit the CAPF 2a to your unit commander or designee such as Deputy Commander, Personnel Officer, Administration Officer, etc. depending upon your local procedures.  It should eventually be be approved by the wing commander or whichever echelon commander has been delegated with the authority to award the Red Service Ribbon within your wing.

Some things appear in eServices, but aren't technically true documentation of the award or decoration, and therefore still require a  CAPF 2a. i.e. IACE, Command Service, Encampment Ribbon, etc.

I truly hope this process is replaced soon with electronic submission and approval, and tracked on eServices.  The CAPF 2a is no longer the preferred method for retirements, transfers, and duty assignments (except for any locally created duties not reflected in CAPR 20-1).  I personally would much rather spend my time training in ES than submitting and tracking CAPF 2a's.

[SarDragon]

Some things appear in eServices, but aren't technically true documentation of the award or decoration, and therefore still require a  CAPF 2a. i.e. IACE, Command Service, Encampment Ribbon, etc.

Command Service is tracked, and well as Encampments.

I'm guessing that cadet special activities are, also, including IACE. If you went a long time ago, you'll need to submit proof, and they will update it. I did that for two encampments.

[Eclipse]

Command Service is tracked, and well as Encampments.

I'm guessing that cadet special activities are, also, including IACE. If you went a long time ago, you'll need to submit proof, and they will update it. I did that for two encampments.

Command service is supposed to be tracked, however if it predates eServices, or wasn't properly recorded, it won't be in there.

I had to have my Command Service corrected before I could get my Jumpstart approved, and a number of my encampments
were not in there. NHQ corrected the encampments with just an email, and the Command issues with a message from the Wing CC.

[LSThiker]

It's not like he could deny it.

Well that depends on how one interprets the "in good standing" clause.  Does this mean, if not under investigation?  Does it mean, if he attends frequently?  Does it mean, if you see him 1 time ever 3 months?

This would the reason why members are not automatically awarded the ribbon after 2 / 5 years. 

Command Service is tracked, and well as Encampments.

I'm guessing that cadet special activities are, also, including IACE. If you went a long time ago, you'll need to submit proof, and they will update it. I did that for two encampments.

IACE and NCSAs are tracked as the same with encampments (assuming NHQ does not accidentally screw up and forget to add your name).

Really, I wish eServices would track all ribbons and awards.  Hopefully, we will get there at some point.

[Eclipse]

It's not like he could deny it.

Well that depends on how one interprets the "in good standing" clause.  Does this mean, if not under investigation?

This is a stretch, but I understand the point.  In CAP parlance "good standing" is essentially "check did no bounce"
(investigations aside).

Does it mean, if he attends frequently?  Does it mean, if you see him 1 time ever 3 months?

Neither of these is a factor in the award criteria, nor would they be grounds for disapproval.
Denying a service ribbon on either of these would be a great way to receive a sustained complaint.

[LSThiker]

It's not like he could deny it.

Well that depends on how one interprets the "in good standing" clause.  Does this mean, if not under investigation?

This is a stretch, but I understand the point.  In CAP parlance "good standing" is essentially "check did no bounce"
(investigations aside).

Does it mean, if he attends frequently?  Does it mean, if you see him 1 time ever 3 months?

Neither of these is a factor in the award criteria, nor would they be grounds for disapproval.
Denying a service ribbon on either of these would be a great way to receive a sustained complaint.

My point is, there is a nebulous "in good standing" clause that has never really been defined.  It is left up to the commander to decide.  I think most commanders would agree that it means "the check/credit card did not bounce".  Even in the business world outside of CAP, that clause has many different standards depending on the business you are.  In the broadest sense, it simply means "in favor or on good terms with someone."

A question,I have is, would you (in general you) award the red service ribbon to a member that has spent the last 10 years in a ghost squadron?  (I have seen this happen and reasons or circumstances aside, it has happened.  Or even a person that spent 8 years active and 2 years inactive.  Or any combination or scenario).  therefore, if the criteria is simply "the check did not bounce", then all of those members that have been in a ghost squadron for 2, 5, 10, etc years should be mailed a CAPF 2a. 

[Eclipse]

A question,I have is, would you (in general you) award the red service ribbon to a member that has spent the last 10 years in a ghost squadron?  (I have seen this happen and reasons or circumstances aside, it has happened.  Or even a person that spent 8 years active and 2 years inactive.  Or any combination or scenario).  therefore, if the criteria is simply "the check did not bounce", then all of those members that have been in a ghost squadron for 2, 5, 10, etc years should be mailed a CAPF 2a.

Technically an unanswerable question - the 000 units don't have commanders, so there is no one to approve the 2a, though I
suppose the Wing CC could do it.

The real answer is "yes", assuming they were not patrons.  NHQ chooses to count these empty shirts as "active members",
and while many (most) wings have been pushed to Patron-ize all the members in 000, I don't think this is universal.

So if NHQ sees fit to count these empty shirts as "active", then they should qualify for the RSR.

[pierson777]

Some things appear in eServices, but aren't technically true documentation of the award or decoration, and therefore still require a  CAPF 2a. i.e. IACE, Command Service, Encampment Ribbon, etc.

Point of clarification.  I did not say that those items (encampment, NCSA, command service, etc.) are not tracked in eServices, rather I said the exact opposite.  I said that they are tracked in eServices.  But appearing in eServices does not alone warrant the wear of the associated ribbon.  No CAP directive allows the eServices record of participation to substitute for the CAPF 2a for activity and service ribbons.  They are awarded in accordance with CAPR 39-3.  Thus, we still use CAPF 2a.

[SarDragon]

I spent ten years "pay, no play", attached to a unit I was as much as 6800 great circle miles away from. There were various reasons for my non-participation, but the time still counted toward my Red Service ribbons.

[DoubleSecret]

It's ridiculous that we require paperwork on this one.  It's analogous to the Air Force Longevity Service Award, which we'd just start wearing (or attach the appropriate device) every 4 years. 

[NIN]

It should just pop up in your online record when the time is greater than 24 months.. Hey look I just eliminated another administrative process!

[Storm Chaser]

Instead of years "in good standing", the Red Service Ribbon should be awarded for years of active service. Paying yearly dues should not be the sole criteria to "earn" this ribbon.

[Eclipse]

Instead of years "in good standing", the Red Service Ribbon should be awarded for years of active service. Paying yearly dues should not be the sole criteria to "earn" this ribbon.

Agreed, however in order to be "active", NHQ would have to define the term.

Those who are "inactive" would be sad.

Not to mention we'd probably have 1/3rd of the membership reporting as "inactive".

[Storm Chaser]

I can live with that.

[pierson777]

It should just pop up in your online record when the time is greater than 24 months.. Hey look I just eliminated another administrative process!

Even if the award were recorded in eServices, it would probably still need to be electronically submitted and approved.  Sure, the first one is usually straight forward, serve two years and you get the ribbon, but that's not always the case.  Other variables exist that hamper the ability to allow the system to automatically approve the award.  For instance, eServices will not account for noncontinuous tenure of membership, especially when a portion of said tenure was prior to eServices.

[a2capt]

If mailing in a check, during that era, counts as "service" .. sure. But since the system has no other factors to include.. sure.

[Shawn W.]

Congrats on 2 Years of service. Now.. here's my advice.  Complete All Paperwork Anything and everything that you do, or earn.. Make sure you have the appropriate paperwork to go with with it..  Make multiple copies..  Put one in your file at your squdron, keep a personel file at home, and I like to also keep a digital file on my computer. This could save you a lot of headaches down the road. Remember... YOU are responsible for maintaining your files.

Cheers,

[NIN]

It should just pop up in your online record when the time is greater than 24 months.. Hey look I just eliminated another administrative process!

Even if the award were recorded in eServices, it would probably still need to be electronically submitted and approved.  Sure, the first one is usually straight forward, serve two years and you get the ribbon, but that's not always the case.  Other variables exist that hamper the ability to allow the system to automatically approve the award.  For instance, eServices will not account for noncontinuous tenure of membership, especially when a portion of said tenure was prior to eServices.

Sure. I get that.

(that describes me. 28 years in CAP, then I retired in 2009, came back in 2013)

But if you can pre-load service or something, eventually e-services kicks out a correct accounting of your necessary "longevity awards"

Wouldn't that be nice?

[THRAWN]

Instead of years "in good standing", the Red Service Ribbon should be awarded for years of active service. Paying yearly dues should not be the sole criteria to "earn" this ribbon.

Agreed, however in order to be "active", NHQ would have to define the term.

Those who are "inactive" would be sad.

Not to mention we'd probably have 1/3rd of the membership reporting as "inactive".

I was going to comment in a similar manner. What defines "active"? Is the guy who gets deployed for a year "inactive"? Is the guy who missed one meeting per month and doesn't do weekend activities due to work commitments "inactive"? Take your join date, add 24 months, there's a ribbon. Thanks for playing.

[Eclipse]

Take your join date, add 24 months, there's a ribbon. Thanks for playing.

Yep - at least in this context that's all there is, and frankly, these days, if you're on a unit's roster, you should be "active" - otherwise if the unit CC
considers you "inactive" enough to not get an RSR, then you should be in either 000 or a Patron.

Interesting that again, this circles back to NHQ's lack of definition of "active" vs. "other".   We report our manpower and readiness
based on pure roster numbers, knowing full well those do not reflect real-world participation.

Simple, baseline assumptions even the local PTA makes that are too much hassle for CAP to define.

[THRAWN]

"Simple, baseline assumptions even the local PTA makes that are too much hassle for CAP to define."

When would there be time to invent new and exciting classes of membership and uniform combinations? You know, the important things?

[Eclipse]

When would there be time to invent new and exciting classes of membership and uniform combinations? You know, the important things?

Sorry, my bad.   Sometimes I throw out these wild / crazy ideas just to see if they will stick!   

[MSG Mac]

The award of the Red Service Ribbon should be subjective Two years of membership should be the least of the requirements. Active membership and concrete contributions to the success of the squadron, should be considerations also. IE I have two cadets attending college who haven't been seen since they graduated from high school (except when they decided to apply for NCSA's). I have informed them that there is a CAP Squadron three blocks down the street-they didn't transfer. Do they deserve a Red Service Ribbon? Not if I have anything to do with it. RSR should be thought of as the CAP Good Conduct Medal and only awarded when the person deserves it.   

[Papabird]

The award of the Red Service Ribbon should be subjective Two years of membership should be the least of the requirements. Active membership and concrete contributions to the success of the squadron, should be considerations also. IE I have two cadets attending college who haven't been seen since they graduated from high school (except when they decided to apply for NCSA's). I have informed them that there is a CAP Squadron three blocks down the street-they didn't transfer. Do they deserve a Red Service Ribbon? Not if I have anything to do with it. RSR should be thought of as the CAP Good Conduct Medal and only awarded when the person deserves it.

That has always been a point of contention to me.  There is an AF longevity ribbon and the AF Good Conduct medal.  These are two separate awards, one is for mere presence, the other is for conduct/actions.  So, which is the Red Service Ribbon Medal?

Per CAPR 39-3: "Red Service Ribbon. Awarded at the end of 2 years (as a cadet or senior member in good standing)"
Per CAPR 39-2: Mentions "Good-Standing" twice.  Once for transfers & once for retirement.   Otherwise this would be the closest I can find to "good standing":  "Any member who maintains current membership in the active senior member category is entitled to attend meetings, hold a duty position, participate in CAP activities, wear the CAP uniform and exercise other privileges of membership"

So, is it a Service award or a Conduct award?  I say it would be nice if it were the latter, but I think it is the former (give it to anyway who pays and gets the time).

[Private Investigator]

The award of the Red Service Ribbon should be subjective Two years of membership should be the least of the requirements. Active membership and concrete contributions to the success of the squadron, should be considerations also.

Subjective exactly.

What you may consider the ideal member for a RSR, I may consider a good ole boy slacker. So perception is called into play. The last Squadron I was in and from years of experience in several other Squadrons I thought the AE and the SE guys both were exceptional. But the Commander would not put either in for any "OTY" awards but put himself in for pilot or observer every year. Every time we think we are on the high road, somebody comes along to remind us we are just human.   

[Private Investigator]

The award of the Red Service Ribbon should be subjective Two years of membership should be the least of the requirements. Active membership and concrete contributions to the success of the squadron, should be considerations also. IE I have two cadets attending college who haven't been seen since they graduated from high school (except when they decided to apply for NCSA's). I have informed them that there is a CAP Squadron three blocks down the street-they didn't transfer. Do they deserve a Red Service Ribbon? Not if I have anything to do with it. RSR should be thought of as the CAP Good Conduct Medal and only awarded when the person deserves it.

That has always been a point of contention to me.  There is an AF longevity ribbon and the AF Good Conduct medal.  These are two separate awards, one is for mere presence, the other is for conduct/actions.  So, which is the Red Service Ribbon Medal?

Per CAPR 39-3: "Red Service Ribbon. Awarded at the end of 2 years (as a cadet or senior member in good standing)"
Per CAPR 39-2: Mentions "Good-Standing" twice.  Once for transfers & once for retirement.   Otherwise this would be the closest I can find to "good standing":  "Any member who maintains current membership in the active senior member category is entitled to attend meetings, hold a duty position, participate in CAP activities, wear the CAP uniform and exercise other privileges of membership"

So, is it a Service award or a Conduct award?  I say it would be nice if it were the latter, but I think it is the former (give it to anyway who pays and gets the time).

Very good points indeed. I think it is the former too. 

[pierson777]

Do they deserve a Red Service Ribbon? Not if I have anything to do with it.

Out of curiosity, would you deny their transfer out?  If they want the ribbon and you won't approve it, they could just transfer then request the ribbon through their new unit.  Does that unit's commander have any reason not to approve the ribbon?  Probably not, so the cadets will get the ribbon through the other unit.  Alternatively, if they request the ribbon and you deny it, then they can contact an IG.  I suspect an IG would support authorizing the ribbon regardless how how much the member participates.

[MSG Mac]

Do they deserve a Red Service Ribbon? Not if I have anything to do with it.

Out of curiosity, would you deny their transfer out?  If they want the ribbon and you won't approve it, they could just transfer then request the ribbon through their new unit.  Does that unit's commander have any reason not to approve the ribbon?  Probably not, so the cadets will get the ribbon through the other unit.  Alternatively, if they request the ribbon and you deny it, then they can contact an IG.  I suspect an IG would support authorizing the ribbon regardless how how much the member participates.

Yes, I would transfer them. rather than have them vegetating without advancing their cadet careers. Saying "I love my squadron, while 2000 miles away doesn't do anything for anybody.

[Storm Chaser]

You know, it's just a ribbon. And it means less when all you have to do to "earn" it is pay your dues.

[SarDragon]

Well, I think it counts for something when a single parent with three pre-school children, living from paycheck to paycheck, can fork over the annual dues, just to maintain some continuity in the organization. Time to participate simply did not exist.

[AlphaSigOU]

Yes, I would transfer them. rather than have them vegetating without advancing their cadet careers. Saying "I love my squadron, while 2000 miles away doesn't do anything for anybody.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. At least I found a squadron that would keep me active even while I was stationed out in Kwajalein. I reciprocated by giving a presentation on Kwajalein to the squadron when I was on home leave. And I still managed to get to go to NSC in 2011.

[Private Investigator]

Well, I think it counts for something when a single parent with three pre-school children, living from paycheck to paycheck, can fork over the annual dues, just to maintain some continuity in the organization. Time to participate simply did not exist.

I agree 100%.  :clap:

[Private Investigator]

Yes, I would transfer them. rather than have them vegetating without advancing their cadet careers. Saying "I love my squadron, while 2000 miles away doesn't do anything for anybody.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. At least I found a squadron that would keep me active even while I was stationed out in Kwajalein. I reciprocated by giving a presentation on Kwajalein to the squadron when I was on home leave. And I still managed to get to go to NSC in 2011.

Chuck, that was a Squadron that thinks outside the box. Also a very good example.

Some people are heartless of course. Like recovering from heart attack, stroke or a serious accident and they want to transfer the member's status to Patron or to "000". So they can show 100% safety participation every month. I have visited a lot of members in convalescence homes during their illnesses. I appreciated their service to CAP. 

[a2capt]

So they can show 100% safety participation every month.

That it's come to this crap alone is a sure sign that things are broken. That some of us have the Wing CC sending out monthly emails encouraging competition and harping on groups, units, etc., that are not 100% ..

Things that are out of their control. Safety currency is an individual member level problem.

[Storm Chaser]

How can anyone feel good for getting an award for virtually doing nothing, except for paying dues? I believe this ribbon should reward active service, participation and/or contribution. There are many way to actively contribute to the organization, so I'm not sure why anyone would be opposed to the idea.

[Eclipse]

How can anyone feel good for getting an award for virtually doing nothing,

Agreed, but I have long since stopped being amazed at what people will do, or take credit for, just to add some plumage.
This is especially an issue, though understandable, with cadets, but far too prevalent in adults as well.

Lost on many of our members as well as leaders is the fact that the only thing more frustrating and disincentivizing then
not rewarding people for a job well done, is rewarding them for doing nothing.

except for paying dues? I believe this ribbon should reward active service, participation and/or contribution. There are many way to actively contribute to the organization, so I'm not sure why anyone would be opposed to the idea.

I agree with this as well, but until NHQ actually defines "active", it's left up to our esteemed CCs to decide, and experience shows
that a majority of these esteemed officer don't like to make people sad, or for that matter even assert expectations of participation and
performance.

[SunDog]

I think I'm almost ribbon-free; my CC may have done the paper work for a "find"  10-12 years back. That would be it for me.  I guess I could figure out how to look it up, but pretty certain I don't have a RSR. We could all go ribbon-less for a year, in protest of lame criteria, maybe?

Not so fun for those who wear combos that include ribbons, of course. Lot easier for us polo, BDU, flight suit, blazer types.

Deck chairs, Titanic kind of thing - symptom, maybe?

[Private Investigator]

How can anyone feel good for getting an award for virtually doing nothing, except for paying dues?

Well along that line of thinking why promote anyone higher than Captain if they have not served as a Commander for four years minimum?

An Assistant Squadron Supply Officer could make Lt Col in ten years by taking a week to go to RSC and really not know anything outside of Petticoat Junction Squadron. 

[GroundHawg]

Does anyone have a good examples of certificates for awards that do not have them? Examples: Red Service, Model Rocketry, Find, SAR, GT Badge, etc..

I might want to push this up the chain at my local squadron and would like some examples. I think this would add to the presentation of awards quite a bit. 

[Ed Bos]

How can anyone feel good for getting an award for virtually doing nothing, except for paying dues?

Well along that line of thinking why promote anyone higher than Captain if they have not served as a Commander for four years minimum?

An Assistant Squadron Supply Officer could make Lt Col in ten years by taking a week to go to RSC and really not know anything outside of Petticoat Junction Squadron. 

Except they'll have had to attend conferences, SLS, & CLC, getting some networking and higher HQ perspective. They'll also have had to staff or lead activities outside of their unit, not to mention mentor a junior officer through Technician in a Specialty Track.

I think if the meet the requirements in Petticoat Junction Squadron, they'll have met the same requirements for Lt Col as the commander of CAWG Ginormous Group 75.

[Private Investigator]

How can anyone feel good for getting an award for virtually doing nothing, except for paying dues?

Well along that line of thinking why promote anyone higher than Captain if they have not served as a Commander for four years minimum?

An Assistant Squadron Supply Officer could make Lt Col in ten years by taking a week to go to RSC and really not know anything outside of Petticoat Junction Squadron. 

Except they'll have had to attend conferences, SLS, & CLC, getting some networking and higher HQ perspective. They'll also have had to staff or lead activities outside of their unit, not to mention mentor a junior officer through Technician in a Specialty Track.

I think if the meet the requirements in Petticoat Junction Squadron, they'll have met the same requirements for Lt Col as the commander of CAWG Ginormous Group 75.

Ed, we both know some people are great at "pencil whipping" stuff. When I was IG I was inspecting a Unit's Comm and the the Comm Officer was Master rated in Comm and he never took any Comm tests. He might be a great HAM but he did not know CAP Communications.