CAP Seal Background Color

[pierson777]

The CAP seal is described in CAPR 900-1 Civil Air Patrol Name, Seal, Logo, Command Emblem and Flag Etiquette.  It states, "when the seal is produced in color, the background will be silver gray."

Why does Vanguard sell items that do not fit this desciption?  On the seal for the polo (golf) shirt the background is baby blue.  On the bullion seal for the mess dress it is white.  On the enamelled seal for the mess dress it is dark blue.  On the seals for plaques it is dark blue. 

Who is responsible for ensuring this stuff is correct?  Does anyone from national monitor these issues and work with Vanguard to fix them?  I hope they fix the polo shirt.  I really dislike the baby blue color.

This is an example of the various seals from throughout the years.  Notice how the background color is silver gray on the old style patches.  Those are correct, but the rest are not.
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[Panache]

Preach it, brother!

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18484.0

[NIN]

To be fair to Vanguard, I believe that the dark blue color on the background of the dinner plate has always been that way

[LSThiker]

To be fair to Vanguard, I believe that the dark blue color on the background of the dinner plate has always been that way

It was.  CAPMart sold the dinner plate with a blue background.  Therefore, Vanguard is selling these items because CAP has told them to produce these items in that manner and sell them that way. 

[pierson777]

To be fair to Vanguard, I believe that the dark blue color on the background of the dinner plate has always been that way

Yes. You are correct.  I know because I bought that one 14 years from the Bookstore, predecessor to CAPMart.   I'm curious why issues like this are not addressed and corrected.  That just tells me they've been it doing wrong for decades, and no one cares enough to address the issue.  Some people cared enough to write and approve the regulation, but where is the enforcement?

Vanguard won't let you comment on an item unless you purchase it first.  I doubt they would care much about what the general membership had to say anyway.  The chain of command is useless for something like this, because the higher echelon commanders are too busy with other issues to to be concerned with something like the color of our official seal on the polo shirts and mess dress.

BTW, the bullion seal looks like it has a grey background in my photo, but that's just the flash/lighting.  I assure you it appears white in person.

[Panache]

Well, if it's been produced with the light blue background since the CAPMart days, and all of the sudden you change the background to Light Gray, all those people who have CAP polos who like the light blue background (or just have gotten use to them) might be irked.  Not to mention, now you'll have two "official" versions of the polos floating around in circulation...

[Storm Chaser]

What has been done in the past and what Vanguard sells is irrelevant. The most recent version of CAPR 900-2 clearly states the colors of the CAP Seal. If NHQ wants to have multiple versions of the Seal floating around, they can update the regulation to allow different variants. But as it's stand now, items being sold by Vanguard are not meeting the standard prescribed by the regulation. That should be corrected.

[Eclipse]

This whole issue gets back to the need to slow things down in CAP and fix the baselines.

If you spend any time in the regs, there is so much being done either incorrectly, or based on "assumption" it's shocking.
Not to mention simple, straightforward questions which have remained open for years if not decades that get crickets, blank stares
or conflicting answers from NHQ when brought to the table.

As mentioned, we can't fix yesterday, but we can fix tomorrow.

Any good manager or leader knows that if your baselines are broken, the entire organization suffers along with its ability
to grow and adapt, heck, even viability is an issue in some cases.

Instead of constantly reinventing the wheel and focusing on this months "shiny project" we should be plugging the holes, fixing the baselines, and
generally cleaning out the dead weight and clutter.

Taken individually none of these issues are of standout importance, but collectively, they certainly are.

Monopoly vendors that ignore standards and specifications, not to mention the lack of standards and specifications, etc., etc.
We have 30,000 some odd adult members, probably 10,000 of which are actually active.  How about using their expertise to
identify and fix these issues?

[Ned]

I know because I bought that one 14 years from the Bookstore, predecessor to CAPMart.   I'm curious why issues like this are not addressed and corrected.  That just tells me they've been it doing wrong for decades, and no one cares enough to address the issue.  Some people cared enough to write and approve the regulation, but where is the enforcement?

You are undoubtedly correct that this has simply been overlooked for a decade or two.  On a optional uniform item probably worn by less than 2% of CAP members.  (I wear the embroidered version.)

And as you surmise, "enforcement" is simply a matter of the contract administrators at NHQ coordinating with Vanguard to fix this issue.

Vanguard won't let you comment on an item unless you purchase it first. 

Really?  I have not found that to be true.  I just call them and ask to speak with their CAP program manager.  I've also dropped them a note.  They have always been responsive and concerned about maintaining their quality.  In this case, it sounds like it is entirely CAP's fault that Vanguard continued to produce the same item that the Bookstore produced.

The chain of command is useless for something like this, because the higher echelon commanders are too busy with other issues to to be concerned with something like the color of our official seal on the polo shirts and mess dress.

There is some truth in that.  There are some pretty important things on the plates of our volunteer leaders, but following regulations is important, too.  Did you try advising your wing commander of the discrepancy?   Did she / he tell you they were too busy to respond?

We have a chain of command for a reason -- because that is the most efficient way to accomplish our missions, and we need a supportive infrastructure (including our uniforms) to do so. 

Publicly complaining about stuff on the internet instead of addressing it through the system is not as helpful as you imagine. 

[Eclipse]

Vanguard won't let you comment on an item unless you purchase it first. 

Really?  I have not found that to be true.  I just call them and ask to speak with their CAP program manager.  I've also dropped them a note.  They have always been responsive and concerned about maintaining their quality.  In this case, it sounds like it is entirely CAP's fault that Vanguard continued to produce the same item that the Bookstore produced.

You can't post a review on their website unless you've purchased the product. Why anyone would bother reviewing a product with a single-source is beyond me,
but the fact remains.

Edit: It appears this has changed or may simply be a case of reviews not being approved for display.

Publicly complaining about stuff on the internet instead of addressing it through the system is not as helpful as you imagine.

Recent history both here and other outlets for "complaining" disagrees.  Issues that languish in the chain for years are suddenty addressed when they get the light of day.

[Eclipse]

The chain of command is useless for something like this, because the higher echelon commanders are too busy with other issues to to be concerned with something like the color of our official seal on the polo shirts and mess dress.

There is some truth in that.  There are some pretty important things on the plates of our volunteer leaders, but following regulations is important, too.  Did you try advising your wing commander of the discrepancy?   Did she / he tell you they were too busy to respond?

We have a chain of command for a reason -- because that is the most efficient way to accomplish our missions, and we need a supportive infrastructure (including our uniforms) to do so. 

Any Wing CC who views the background color of an insignia produced by our sole-source vendor as a priority should be removed immediately.

As you say, we have contract negotiators on staff who are tasked with this, not to mention the simple integrity of the vendor in actually
reading the specifications when they exist, or pushing NHQ for the spec when they don't.

We also have hundreds, if not thousands, of members who have specific expertise in vendor negotiations, graphic arts and identify development, not to mention the basic
ability to read the regs.

Why aren't we using them?

[a2capt]

As for variants of the polo shirt, there are already several. Just look around at any large gathering..

[Eclipse]

As for variants of the polo shirt, there are already several. Just look around at any large gathering..

Those huge badge insignias look ridiculous.

[Ned]

Recent history both here and other outlets for "complaining" disagrees.  Issues that languish in the chain for years are suddenty addressed when they get the light of day.

First, there is no indication that this particular issue has "languished in the chain for years."  Indeed, the implication by the OP was that they never bothered to try to use the chain.  Which was why I asked, just to be sure.

Second, every good leader will try to correct problems that come to their attention, even if it comes to their attention through improper means.  Part of that fix is educating the complainer about the proper method to swiftly and appropriately bring issues to the leadership.   Which is how we prevent problems from languishing in the first place.

[Eclipse]

OK, summarily ignored by all responsible parties?

Whomever is responsible for enforcing the vendor contracts needs to be fired or relieved, and Vanguard should
have some contractual tenants that penalize them when they produce products of unacceptable quality or
which do not adhere to specifications.

The fact that it appears no end-to-end review of specifications, for products they are expected to produce, is
simply flabbergasting.   If for no other reason then you have to set up the machines, create dies, order or
schedule resins, etc., etc.  But it appears VG just took the business and asked few questions, and NHQ was
happy enough to get "someone" to hand it off to, so didn't push from their end, either.

As to the "chain" - let's not kid ourselves or play games.  There is no "chain" in this regard.  Real, serious
issues die on the vine all the time because someone in the "chain" can't be bothered.  This kind of thing
isn't the responsibility of anyone below NHQ, so why would anyone below that level waste their precious
CAP time?  Talk about windmills.

There is an OPR for this, they should fix it and anything else related.

Here's a thought - does NHQ have a CI or anything similar?    Not financial audits or
inventory inspections, a top-down inspection like every other echelon has to endure?

I imagine that would be "fun".

[Ned]

Whomever is responsible for enforcing the vendor contracts needs to be fired or relieved, and Vanguard should
have some contractual tenants that penalize them when they produce products of unacceptable quality or
which do not adhere to specifications.

As to the "chain" - let's not kid ourselves or play games.  There is no "chain" in this regard.  Real, serious
issues die on the vine all the time because someone in the "chain" can't be bothered.  This kind of thing
isn't the responsibility of anyone below NHQ, so why would anyone below that level waste their precious
CAP time?  Talk about windmills.

What a classic CAPTalk over reaction to a trivial uniform issue.

Seriously, here is a discrepancy on a uniform item used by less than 2% of the membership that went unnoticed for decades.  And somebody should be fired?

Weren't you the guy who said:

Any Wing CC who views the background color of an insignia produced by our sole-source vendor as a priority should be removed immediately.

You seem to have a limited number of tools in your Leadership Tool Box, sir.   

There is an OPR for this, they should fix it and anything else related.

Yup, absolutely.  Someone just needs to tell them about it.  Which is what the chain is for.

Really, just takes the briefest of notes - "Hey, I was looking at Vanguard Item # CAP 0900A, the enameled seal for the mess dress, and the blue background appears to be in conflict with the official description of the seal in CAPR 900-1, which prescribes a "silver gray."  Just thought you'd like to know."

This needs to be fixed, but let's all retain a sense of perspective here.

[FlyTiger77]

... let's all retain a sense of perspective here.

You do realize that this is CAPTalk, don't you?   

[Eclipse]

This needs to be fixed, but let's all retain a sense of perspective here.

Don't trivialize it with the typical "Seriously, is this a big deal?" response.  That apathy is
why we're in the mess we're in not just with our uniforms, but in a lot of other areas as well. Details matter.

It's not just this issue, it is the issue.

Just for snicks, who, exactly, >is< the OPR for Vanguard quality and specification issues?

And lastly, again, why is this, like so many other "trivial" issues with clear regs and simple specs simply left to
the rank and file membership to address / complain about / live with?

As someone who lives and dies by details in my business life, I absolutely >hate< being caught out on stuff like
this.  Much of my work is done in a space where 6 months of planning, hundred of man hours, and thousands of
dollars ride on whether a brand's colors look right, a screen is the wrong resolution, or the response time on a
system is laggy.  In the end it's about appearance and customer experience, and for CAP that's both internal and
external customers.

Stupid little trivialities that call into question the attention to detail of the whole situation, and may not get you a call back.
Except in CAP's case, the membership has little to no choice.

My response, at least to the people who are kind enough to occasionally write me a check, is never "That's just how it is...",
or "That's how the last guy did it."

It's "I'll get it fixed."

[pierson777]

Vanguard won't let you comment on an item unless you purchase it first. 

Really?  I have not found that to be true.  I just call them and ask to speak with their CAP program manager.  I've also dropped them a note.  They have always been responsive and concerned about maintaining their quality.  In this case, it sounds like it is entirely CAP's fault that Vanguard continued to produce the same item that the Bookstore produced.

Darnit, you're right.  I stand corrected.  I was thinking about another online store (not CAP related) that I was shopping last Fall that didn't allow reviews unless you purchased the item.  Thank you for pointing that out, and my apologies.  Please disregard that statement.  I'll contact Vanguard later and ask them about the embroidered seal.

[Eclipse]

Reviews require approval before they will appear.  Good luck with that.