Activities that qualify for community service credit CAPR 39-3 (21)(i)?

[lordmonar]

I don't have a problem with the Community Service Ribbon and think it's good for members to be involved in other organizations and projects.

That said, I don't like the idea of "double dipping". I don't think that if a member is doing something as part of, lets say, Boy Scouts, that he should get credit for an additional award with CAP. I know there are those who disagree with me and that's fine. But I feel that CAP wants to reward service to the community, not membership in other organizations.

Of course, CAPR 39-3 is not clear on what constitutes qualifying community services, so it's up to the commanders to determine that.

I would agree.....if we gave a "BSA Ribbon"  Or a "GSA" ribbon or something similar.

We ARE rewarding community service........it just so happens that SO is the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Church, School, etc.

By saying "it doesn't count if you get credit from someone else" means we are making it HARDER for someone who is active with the BSA, school, their church, etc.

One member is a real go getter or goes to a school that requires community service....he does his 60 hours..."sorry, dude.....nice job but we don't care about your community service becuase you got your church's good deed certificate'.

Another member is a real go getter....but is just involved with CAP....he does his 60 hours..."Good job....here's your ribbon."!

Do you see where I am having a problem with this sort of attitude.  I understand where you come from......"it's double dipping".....but it is not....because it is two different organizations.....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Eclipse and others, you certainly have the right to disagree with the CSR (for the record: I do not have one).

However, for whatever reason, CAP thinks it is a good idea and that it encourages volunteerism, which is what CAP is built around.

It may well be "ribbon trolling."  The CGAUX has a ribbon (Auxiliary Sustained Service Award) awarded basically just for showing up/doing Aux stuff for 750 hours:

http://www.cgaux.org/training/Ribbons/AuxiliarySustainedServiceAward.html

However, since we are not paid monetarily, promotions (for those deemed worthy) and awards are the only tangible rewards we get.

It is not just a "gimme" ribbon, though.  My CC is active in Habitat For Humanity and he put in a lot of sweat equity before qualifying for the CSR.

If you do not like or agree with the award, do not put yourself in for one...but please do the decent thing and not block someone under your command who puts in for one.

[lordmonar]

I don't see the issue with BSA service which goes outside routine meetings and such. I got my initial CSR because I was involved in relief efforts after a tornado decimated my old city in Alabama, and the majority of those hours were loosely or directly related to the BSA being involved all over the place, doing cleanup, handing out food etc. Nothing came about it in the Scouts, no awards or whatever, just the satisfaction that I helped in a time of need.

That's different. You did community service during a disaster relief effort. What I was referring to is those who belong to other organizations and want to use those meetings and activities as community service.

Depends on the organization and the role that was played.    A cadet who wants to use his 3 hours a week at BSA meetings.....I would agree that does not count.  OTOH the SM who attends those same 3 hour a week BSA meetings as a leader....I would count.  But when they both go out to clean up trash for the annual earth day activity....I would allow for both.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't have a problem with the Community Service Ribbon and think it's good for members to be involved in other organizations and projects.

That said, I don't like the idea of "double dipping". I don't think that if a member is doing something as part of, lets say, Boy Scouts, that he should get credit for an additional award with CAP. I know there are those who disagree with me and that's fine. But I feel that CAP wants to reward service to the community, not membership in other organizations.

Of course, CAPR 39-3 is not clear on what constitutes qualifying community services, so it's up to the commanders to determine that.

I would agree.....if we gave a "BSA Ribbon"  Or a "GSA" ribbon or something similar.

We ARE rewarding community service........it just so happens that SO is the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Church, School, etc.

By saying "it doesn't count if you get credit from someone else" means we are making it HARDER for someone who is active with the BSA, school, their church, etc.

One member is a real go getter or goes to a school that requires community service....he does his 60 hours..."sorry, dude.....nice job but we don't care about your community service becuase you got your church's good deed certificate'.

Another member is a real go getter....but is just involved with CAP....he does his 60 hours..."Good job....here's your ribbon."!

Do you see where I am having a problem with this sort of attitude.  I understand where you come from......"it's double dipping".....but it is not....because it is two different organizations.....

If you read my subsequent post you'll see that what I meant was that I don't agree with someone getting credit for community service just because they belong to another organization. Attending meetings or activities of organizations such as BSA should not constitute community service in and of itself. I don't have a problem with those seeking credit for working on a community project as part of those organizations.

The problem is that because the criteria in CAPR 39-3 is a bit vague, some commanders give credit for just attending meetings of these organizations because the members are "volunteering". I don't believe that is the intent of this ribbon, as it is a Community Service Ribbon, not a "volunteer organization membership ribbon".

[TankerT]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

I would like to point out that the US Military awards decorations for valor and lifesaving for actions that do not happen while service members are on duty.

Correct. In fact being an active member of CAP for say a year or more and then get your leadership there to write an at-a-boy letter to your Military Chain-of-Command and you would qualify for a Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

I wasn't even thinking of the MOVSM.  I had the Soldier's and Airman's medals in mind.  Those often involve heroism or valor, and have been awarded to many off duty soldiers and airmen. 

[Walkman]

I have the CSR with 2 clasps. All 180 hours come from 10+ years as a leader in BSA. I put in a ton more than that, really. Heck you could look at one week of scout camp as 168 hours if you wanna' get really nit-picky (7 days @ 24 hrs a day). I did all those years as an unpaid volunteer, same as CAP. But my CAP life and my BSA life only combined twice: working with the troop in the Aviation and SAR merit badges.

On the point of a scout "double dipping", just to keep things in perspective and not to keep beating that horse: for Tenderfoot, 2nd & 1st class rank, there is no service requirement. For Star & life there is a service project requirement of 6 hours. The Eagle Project can broadly be classed as "community service" (depending on the project) and the number of hours varies greatly. So, the reality of a scout who is also a CAP cadet "double dipping" and getting the CSR for service hours in scouts isn't going to be something we see often, if at all.

Regardless of one's personal opinions on the CSR:
1) It's an authorized ribbon for CAP
2) The spirit and intent of the award is to recognize & encourage CAP members being active in serving their community outside CAP
3) If a CC has a personal issue with the existence of the award, they do not have the right to deny a member who has completed the requirements spelled out in the regs in good faith

We can debate the pros & cons of the CSR until the cows come home, but that's the facts.

[Storm Chaser]

On the point of a scout "double dipping", just to keep things in perspective and not to keep beating that horse: for Tenderfoot, 2nd & 1st class rank, there is no service requirement. For Star & life there is a service project requirement of 6 hours. The Eagle Project can broadly be classed as "community service" (depending on the project) and the number of hours varies greatly. So, the reality of a scout who is also a CAP cadet "double dipping" and getting the CSR for service hours in scouts isn't going to be something we see often, if at all.

As I said before, the problem is not getting credit for a community project done as part of the BSA or any other organization. The problem is, as I see it, that because the criteria of what constitutes community service in CAPR 39-3 is not clear, some have interpret it as meaning that if you're a member in any of these organizations, you can claim this membership as community service. I disagree.

I recently had a cadet draft a letter requesting credit for community service based on hours spent at regular CAP squadron meetings. That's not community service; not for a cadet, anyway.

[Walkman]

The problem is, as I see it, that because the criteria of what constitutes community service in CAPR 39-3 is not clear, some have interpret it as meaning that if you're a member in any of these organizations, you can claim this membership as community service. I disagree.

I see where you're going. Here's how this could be explained in your hypothetical: the regs state that 60 HOURS of service be performed. Simply being a member of an organization doesn't mean that someone has put in any time in that organization. We're all familiar with CAP members that are on the books but are never at meetings, right? The hours need to be substantiated in some way.

The service must be verified by a volunteer coordinator.

So it is actually pretty clear cut. Anyone who wants to recieve the award needs to have someone from the other organization proved some sort of official certification for the hours worked. If Joe Palooka shows up to the local food kitchen and asks the director for a letter stating he's worked 60 hours there, what are the chances they're going to get it if no one knows who he is?

[MHC5096]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

I would like to point out that the US Military awards decorations for valor and lifesaving for actions that do not happen while service members are on duty.

Correct. In fact being an active member of CAP for say a year or more and then get your leadership there to write an at-a-boy letter to your Military Chain-of-Command and you would qualify for a Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

I wasn't even thinking of the MOVSM.  I had the Soldier's and Airman's medals in mind.  Those often involve heroism or valor, and have been awarded to many off duty soldiers and airmen.

The Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals come to mind as well.

[Private Investigator]

Seriously?

I agree with Ned 300%, thank you sir  :clap:

[NIN]

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.

I am obviously not against community service, I am against double-dipping and ribbon trolling nothing more complicated then that.

Well, I think a cadet who jumps out of his car and saves someone on the highway is neither double-dipping nor ribbon trolling.

Now, if he just handed out business cards, 'nuther matter entirely.

[Alaric]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1431

Community Service Ribbon is a valuable tool in my opinion, and is no more or less "ribbon-trolling" or "double-dipping" then the stars on the Leadership Ribbon, the Crossfield Award, the Command Service Ribbon; now that the Yeager Award is a required part of Level III, once you are wearing the Loening award, the Yeager award.  If you've got active members that are also giving 60+ hours volunteering at food banks, coaching some youth group, doing (unpaid) tutoring for after-school programs, etc.  Why not recognize them

[smithwr2]

Good discussion.... I heard back from the folks at Knowledgebase and they put the judgement for the CSR questions back on the Squadron Commander.

For my own field guideline, I will use the rule of "if in CAP uniform, then no CSR credit".  That rule would cover just about all situations since we are always in some kind of uniform when involved in CAP organized and conducted community activities.

[Storm Chaser]

^ I think that's a good rule of thumb, but I would emphasize the community service part. If a member is working on a community service or project outside of CAP, regardless of the organization sponsoring the service, then they qualify for credit towards the ribbon. Attending meetings or training of another organization does not constitute community service in and of itself. There has to be an actual service that benefits or contributes to the community.

[BFreemanMA]

My squadron interpreted that rule in the same way as Stormchaser: obviously, going out on a SAREX or mission, while helpful to the community, wouldn't qualify as it's directly related to CAP and done as a CAP activity. However, in my case, I work with a lot of local theater organizations and was able to get an email certifying my hours from the group directors. Since it's an activity outside of CAP, I was awarded the CSR.

On the other hand, our squadron organized an optional event where we helped our local Girl Scouts chapters distribute cookies to other troops. We were there "as CAP", but it wasn't directly related to CAP or any of our missions. As such, the event earned us credit that was able to be put towards any given member's CSR.

[Eclipse]

On the other hand, our squadron organized an optional event where we helped our local Girl Scouts chapters distribute cookies to other troops. We were there "as CAP", but it wasn't directly related to CAP or any of our missions. As such, the event earned us credit that was able to be put towards any given member's CSR.

If you're there as CAP, in >ANY< capacity, no CSR.  That's clearly in the regs.

There's no such thing as "there as CAP, but not a CAP activity".  If you're wearing the uniform, it's supposed to have been approved
by a CC somewhere.

[BFreemanMA]

That's...a fair point. I think I might point my command staff towards the regs for that portion.

[Storm Chaser]

i.   Community Service Ribbon.  Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol. The service must be verified by a volunteer coordinator. Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition. A bronze clasp may be added for each additional 60 hours of community service.

(emphasis mine)

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Encouraging Community Service outside of CAP seems to be the intent of the regulation. As written, are we shooing ourselves in the foot from a PR standpoint?

I don't think anyone on this thread thinks we should double dip and award time that would count toward SAR ribbon to the CSR. Ditto any time spent on the CAP missions.

Now let's say there is a clean up effort in a park near the Random Cadet Squadron^TM. For PR purposes would we be better off having 6 cadets in civilian clothes participating or the same 6 with a Senior member in uniform helping out? As the CSR reg is written it's "better" for the cadets to not be in uniform.

Could this lead to confusion. Sure. But just from this thread there appears to be confusion. Perhaps the Group / Wing CC could be the approver of the activity for CSR credit.

Other threads today have mentioned the recruiting & retention issue. Would CAP visibly involved in the community provide additional PR / recruiting opportunities? I'd guess yes. Cost? A bunch of cadets with 1 more ribbon.

[Eclipse]

Or just participate in CAP and not expect bling.  No PR issues, no confusion.