Activities that qualify for community service credit CAPR 39-3 (21)(i)?

[smithwr2]

Maybe once a year I review the preceeding year and try to organize the paperwork for various awards that I and others may be eligible for.  My Unit Professional Development folks mostly tracks that stuff for us but now and then I come across a ribbon I didn't even know existed...for example the Community Service Ribbon.

The CAPR 39-3 (21)(i) states for the Community Service Ribbon that "Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition."  Knowledgebase goes on to give very black and white scenarios, as in 'a CAP SAR does not qualify, but highway cleanup and soup kitchens do qualify'.  See Answers ID 1431, 1381, and 740.

In a world of gray, I have questions on some of the finer points for the requirements for the Community Service ribbon. 

For example, does the CAPTAlk community think the following volunteer activity hours qualify as community service under CAPR 39-3 (21)(i)?

1)  Hours Providing volunteer emergency services as a member of CERT?
2)  Hours of volunteer training to become CERT qualified?
3)  Hours flying volunteer Air-SAR with the US Coast Guard Auxiliary?
4)  Hours of volunteer training in support of the USCGAux Air-SAR qualifcation?
5)  Collecting food items door-to-door in CAP uniform, for a food drive event which is organized and run by the Salvation Army?
6)  Providing crowd control in CAP uniform, at a food drive event which is organized and run by the Salvation Army and not CAP?
7)  Providing crowd control in CAP uniform, at an event which is organized and run by an aviation museum and not CAP?

I would say 'Yes, these qualify' for each of these, because in each case the project is organized and conducted by someone other than a CAP unit.  Knowledgebase guidance is unclear on the matter, for example 'Providing crowd control in CAP uniform, at an airshow' does not qualify as community service.  But 'Providing a food drive in CAP uniform' does qualify.  I've asked Knowledgebase for clarification.

There's some Knowledgebase guidance relating to 'typical CAP activities' being the deciding factor for 'not community service':  "CAP organized activities such as airshows, aerospace education, search and rescue or any of the other typical activities CAP volunteers are routinely involved with in their community as CAP members."  But this guidance also draws the distiction of the activity being a "CAP organized" activity so who knows which rule is in play here.

One final thing:  Our unit got some guidance somewhere that if our cadets were in uniform while performing volunteer  crowd control at an aviation museum fly-in that was organized and conducted by the museum = no hours for community service.  Take off the uniform and there ya go, you now get your hours.   So we started going sans-Uniform.  Seemed backwards to me.


Your thoughts?


Randy Smith
Capt CAP
PCR-WA-015

[Eclipse]

Anything in a CAP uniform doesn't count, those are, by definition, are a CAP activity.

I'm not a big fan of giving credit for participating with other organizations like CERT, CGAUX, etc., as those
have their own avenues of recognition, but ultimately it's up the the approving CC.

5)  Collecting food items door-to-door in CAP uniform, for a food drive event which is organized and run by the Salvation Army?
6)  Providing crowd control in CAP uniform, at a food drive event which is organized and run by the Salvation Army and not CAP?
7)  Providing crowd control in CAP uniform, at an event which is organized and run by an aviation museum and not CAP?

None of these should be done in a CAP uniform unless it is an approved CAP activity.

[lordmonar]

1-2.   Anything done for CAP is automatically non-qualified hours.  So if you got your CERT certification and did your CERT hours as part of a CAP activity....then no.   If you are a member of your local CERT team independent of being a part of CAP....then yes.

3-4.  If you are a member of CGAUX and flew air-sar as part of CGAUX then yes.  If it was a join activity and you flew as CAP.....then no.

5.  collecting food in you CAP uniform.....that is an activity that was "organized by CAP"...i.e. "hey you all this week end, the unit is going to be helping out Food For Poor People."  NO.  If you just went to door to door in you CAP uniform asking for donations for FFPP.....then maybe.....but I will have to have long talk with you about when you should and should not be wearing your uniform. 

6.  If you were there in CAP uniform....then by the definition in the 39-3.....it was a "service project conducted by CAP" and does not count.

7.  If you were then in CAP uniform.....well I bet you can see where I'm going with this.

Personally I don't agree with that part of the regulation.....but until/unless the wording gets changed.....any thing "conducted by the unit" is a NO-GO for the community service ribbon.

[MIKE]

I would not put CGAUX time in as you are being "compensated" via the CGAUX awards system.

[arajca]

The easy way it was explained to me by a wing CC is: Was the member's participation organized by CAP? If it was, then it does not count, If not, it counts. So merely announcing a local veteran's group is looking for help is different from the unit organizing said help.

[a2capt]

The local Air Museum asks us for help with crowds, and to act as guides for certain activities, we put the word out in the unit, and we go, as a CAP group, in uniform. We get community service from it, and visibility.

[lordmonar]

The local Air Museum asks us for help with crowds, and to act as guides for certain activities, we put the word out in the unit, and we go, as a CAP group, in uniform. We get community service from it, and visibility.

You should not have......."We go, as a CAP group".....ergo it is a service project conducted by CAP.....and does not count.

Again.....I don't agree with it the rule.....but there it is.

[lordmonar]

I would not put CGAUX time in as you are being "compensated" via the CGAUX awards system.

You can't really use that rule....unless you codeify it...and define "compensated".


A boy scout is required to do X number of service hours for his badges........is that "compensation"?    If so then that scout (who is also a CAP cadet) would not be able apply those hours towards the CSR.

If we start saying "well you need those hours for XYZ...and so you can't get a CSR" means that we interfere with the purpose of the ribbon in the first place.....that is to encourage volunteer service outside of CAP.   If a member can get a ribbon, badge, credit from 2-3 different organizations for community service.....I got no problem with that.   It becomes a win-win for everyone.

[Eclipse]

A boy scout is required to do X number of service hours for his badges........is that "compensation"?    If so then that scout (who is also a CAP cadet) would not be able apply those hours towards the CSR.

Nor should he.

If we start saying "well you need those hours for XYZ...and so you can't get a CSR" means that we interfere with the purpose of the ribbon in the first place.....that is to encourage volunteer service outside of CAP.   If a member can get a ribbon, badge, credit from 2-3 different organizations for community service.....I got no problem with that.   It becomes a win-win for everyone.

We've been here before - many see that as double dipping or ribbon trolling.

[lordmonar]

We've been here before - many see that as double dipping or ribbon trolling.

So?

In what way does it hurt CAP, the member, or our mission.....if the Boy Scouts, the VFW, the local high school, the local church, AND CAP all give out a ribbon/certificate/credit for the same act?

As for "ribbon trolling".......in this case that is exactly what we (CAP) are doing.   CAP can't organize, conduct or benefit from the community service.   We use the ribbon as bait to get our people out into the world and do some good.  If the only reason the member did the community service was to get a ribbon.......well then win-win-win.  The member gets his ribbon, the community gets 60 hours of community service, and CAP did all that for less then $2. 

   

[Eclipse]

So what's next, Comm-Comms for Eagle Scout?

The CSR is another cast-off from trying to make CAP fit a military model.  Members aren't tied 24x7 to a base or AOR
needing to fulfill their life needs, end-to-end, from religion-to-medical-to-outreach.

Active CAP membership >is< community service, and we're supposed to be encouraging our membership
to participate in CAP, not other organizations.  Those hours doing "other" is hours not being involved with
CAP.  Obviously people do plenty of "other", but that doesn't mean we should be giving them bling for it.

Any activity that is worthwhile to the community and considered valid for a CSR, should be done as a CAP activity
as a group, for all the benefit that brings, and without concern for a ribbon.

I've seen requests for everything from "helping me with my tax preparation business", to "church choir",
to the always humorous "court mandated community service", and everything in between.

For every legit project, there's 5 where the member was already engaged with other organizations, is perusing
39-3 and notices the CSR (as is the case with the OP, as a matter of fact).  "Hey, I'm doing communi-stuff, give me a ribbon."

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.  Let other organizations recognize their people and never the twain meet.

[Ned]

Active CAP membership >is< community service, and we're supposed to be encouraging our membership
to participate in CAP, not other organizations. 

Seriously?

Where is that written in any of our regulations or doctrine?

I obviously agree that CAP membership is community service, but we have always been about encouraging our members to engage outside of CAP service.

The mission of CAP is not supporting CAP.  It is something to the effect of service to our community, state, and nation.  Nowhere does it say that we can or should only do that through direct CAP service.

Just speaking for the largest mission in CAP -- CP -- our stated mission is "transform youth into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders." (CAPR 52-16, para 1-2.)  If we simply produce 26,000 Spaatz cadets a year who do not engage in their communities as leaders, we will not have succeeded; we will have failed in our mission.

We encourage cadets to engage in their schooling by requiring good grades.

We encourage cadets to engage with their faith communities through things like "CAP Sunday."

We encourage cadets to engage with other youth organizations through things like Red Ribbon Week and Wreaths Across America.

And the list goes on . . .

But even more importantly, the fact that cadets need to engage in other community service beyond CAP in order to succeed as a dynamic American and aerospace leader is self -evident.

A cadet applying to the Air Force Academy or a AFROTC scholarship with a Spaatz, a 4.0, and nothing else is going to be less successful than another cadet with a Spaatz, a 3.8, varsity letters, student government experience, and a strong history of volunteering in her/his community.

We need to be sure that our cadets have a broad and active sense of committment to service.  And it sure doesn't hurt for our seniors to do so as well.

So, yes, CAP does have similar motives for encouraging volunteer community service as do our military service colleagues -- development of the individual through additional selfless service, support to our communities, and improved relations between the communities and the parent service, which in our case is CAP.

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.  Let other organizations recognize their people and never the twain meet.

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

Like, for example, the example set by Cadet Adam Rae of Colorado Wing who came across a car crash in August of 2005:

Cadet Adam T. Rae, CAP, distinguished himself by conspicuous, heroic action when he risked his own life to save another on 20 August 2005. While driving home with two of his friends, Cadet Rae witnessed a horrific car crash. The car hit two trees at an extremely high rate of speed, and actually broke in half. Rae stopped his car and jumped out. He ran to the nearest portion of the wreck, and saw a passenger inside who obviously had not survived. Then Adam heard a woman bystander scream that the driver was trapped inside the front half, and the vehicle had caught on fire. With disregard for his own safety, Rae ran to the car and was able to open the door. He managed to unfasten the driver's seat belt, burning his hands in the process. He dragged the driver out and away from the burning wreck. His two friends, meanwhile, ran to a nearby restaurant and got two fire extinguishers. As Rae examined the driver he noted the man was unconscious, and had massive wounds and profuse bleeding. An arriving Colorado State Trooper gave Rae a set of medical gloves and he attempted to stem the blood flow by asking for shirts from the gathering spectators. Cadet Rae noticed that the man was having trouble breathing because of an accumulation of blood in his airway. He immediately began CPR. As his friends attempted to extinguish the fire, flame-ups twice exploded, knocking all three to the ground. With continued disregard to his own personal safety Rae performed CPR on the victim for 12 minutes until firefighters arrived. A firefighter took over CPR and Rae intubated the victim and operated the bag valve mask while also tending to the victim's massive head wounds. Cadet Adam Rae remained cool in an emergency and exhibited a courage and perseverance. He is credited by the emergency personnel at the scene and by the American Red Cross with saving a life at obvious peril to his own. Cadet Rae's quick thinking, heroic action and complete disregard for his own personal safety reflects great credit upon himself, Thompson Valley Composite Squadron, the Colorado Wing, and Civil Air Patrol.

So we have no business recognizing such heroism?

Really?

[Eclipse]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

[TankerT]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

I would like to point out that the US Military awards decorations for valor and lifesaving for actions that do not happen while service members are on duty.

[Shuman 14]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

I would like to point out that the US Military awards decorations for valor and lifesaving for actions that do not happen while service members are on duty.

Correct. In fact being an active member of CAP for say a year or more and then get your leadership there to write an at-a-boy letter to your Military Chain-of-Command and you would qualify for a Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

[lordmonar]

So what's next, Comm-Comms for Eagle Scout?

No.....never suggested that.   

What the BSA does to recognize their people is their business.....just like what we do to recognize our people is our business.....and never the twain should meet.......even if "our people" and "their people" are the same person.

The CSR is another cast-off from trying to make CAP fit a military model.  Members aren't tied 24x7 to a base or AOR
needing to fulfill their life needs, end-to-end, from religion-to-medical-to-outreach.

Active CAP membership >is< community service, and we're supposed to be encouraging our membership
to participate in CAP, not other organizations.

Okay.....so what you actually object to is that CAP is encouraging people to contribute to their communities outside of CAP.

I don't know what to say about that.......

Those hours doing "other" is hours not being involved with CAP.  Obviously people do plenty of "other", but that doesn't mean we should be giving them bling for it.

Any activity that is worthwhile to the community and considered valid for a CSR, should be done as a CAP activity
as a group, for all the benefit that brings, and without concern for a ribbon.

So...if it is not CAP related....it is not worthwhile.....Okay I got you.

I've seen requests for everything from "helping me with my tax preparation business", to "church choir",
to the always humorous "court mandated community service", and everything in between.

For every legit project, there's 5 where the member was already engaged with other organizations, is perusing
39-3 and notices the CSR (as is the case with the OP, as a matter of fact).  "Hey, I'm doing communi-stuff, give me a ribbon."
So?

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.  Let other organizations recognize their people and never the twain meet.

That's just sad. 

[Eclipse]

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.

I am obviously not against community service, I am against double-dipping and ribbon trolling nothing more complicated then that.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't have a problem with the Community Service Ribbon and think it's good for members to be involved in other organizations and projects.

That said, I don't like the idea of "double dipping". I don't think that if a member is doing something as part of, lets say, Boy Scouts, that he should get credit for an additional award with CAP. I know there are those who disagree with me and that's fine. But I feel that CAP wants to reward service to the community, not membership in other organizations.

Of course, CAPR 39-3 is not clear on what constitutes qualifying community services, so it's up to the commanders to determine that.

[HGjunkie]

I don't see the issue with BSA service which goes outside routine meetings and such. I got my initial CSR because I was involved in relief efforts after a tornado decimated my old city in Alabama, and the majority of those hours were loosely or directly related to the BSA being involved all over the place, doing cleanup, handing out food etc. Nothing came about it in the Scouts, no awards or whatever, just the satisfaction that I helped in a time of need.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't see the issue with BSA service which goes outside routine meetings and such. I got my initial CSR because I was involved in relief efforts after a tornado decimated my old city in Alabama, and the majority of those hours were loosely or directly related to the BSA being involved all over the place, doing cleanup, handing out food etc. Nothing came about it in the Scouts, no awards or whatever, just the satisfaction that I helped in a time of need.

That's different. You did community service during a disaster relief effort. What I was referring to is those who belong to other organizations and want to use those meetings and activities as community service.

[lordmonar]

I don't have a problem with the Community Service Ribbon and think it's good for members to be involved in other organizations and projects.

That said, I don't like the idea of "double dipping". I don't think that if a member is doing something as part of, lets say, Boy Scouts, that he should get credit for an additional award with CAP. I know there are those who disagree with me and that's fine. But I feel that CAP wants to reward service to the community, not membership in other organizations.

Of course, CAPR 39-3 is not clear on what constitutes qualifying community services, so it's up to the commanders to determine that.

I would agree.....if we gave a "BSA Ribbon"  Or a "GSA" ribbon or something similar.

We ARE rewarding community service........it just so happens that SO is the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Church, School, etc.

By saying "it doesn't count if you get credit from someone else" means we are making it HARDER for someone who is active with the BSA, school, their church, etc.

One member is a real go getter or goes to a school that requires community service....he does his 60 hours..."sorry, dude.....nice job but we don't care about your community service becuase you got your church's good deed certificate'.

Another member is a real go getter....but is just involved with CAP....he does his 60 hours..."Good job....here's your ribbon."!

Do you see where I am having a problem with this sort of attitude.  I understand where you come from......"it's double dipping".....but it is not....because it is two different organizations.....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Eclipse and others, you certainly have the right to disagree with the CSR (for the record: I do not have one).

However, for whatever reason, CAP thinks it is a good idea and that it encourages volunteerism, which is what CAP is built around.

It may well be "ribbon trolling."  The CGAUX has a ribbon (Auxiliary Sustained Service Award) awarded basically just for showing up/doing Aux stuff for 750 hours:

http://www.cgaux.org/training/Ribbons/AuxiliarySustainedServiceAward.html

However, since we are not paid monetarily, promotions (for those deemed worthy) and awards are the only tangible rewards we get.

It is not just a "gimme" ribbon, though.  My CC is active in Habitat For Humanity and he put in a lot of sweat equity before qualifying for the CSR.

If you do not like or agree with the award, do not put yourself in for one...but please do the decent thing and not block someone under your command who puts in for one.

[lordmonar]

I don't see the issue with BSA service which goes outside routine meetings and such. I got my initial CSR because I was involved in relief efforts after a tornado decimated my old city in Alabama, and the majority of those hours were loosely or directly related to the BSA being involved all over the place, doing cleanup, handing out food etc. Nothing came about it in the Scouts, no awards or whatever, just the satisfaction that I helped in a time of need.

That's different. You did community service during a disaster relief effort. What I was referring to is those who belong to other organizations and want to use those meetings and activities as community service.

Depends on the organization and the role that was played.    A cadet who wants to use his 3 hours a week at BSA meetings.....I would agree that does not count.  OTOH the SM who attends those same 3 hour a week BSA meetings as a leader....I would count.  But when they both go out to clean up trash for the annual earth day activity....I would allow for both.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't have a problem with the Community Service Ribbon and think it's good for members to be involved in other organizations and projects.

That said, I don't like the idea of "double dipping". I don't think that if a member is doing something as part of, lets say, Boy Scouts, that he should get credit for an additional award with CAP. I know there are those who disagree with me and that's fine. But I feel that CAP wants to reward service to the community, not membership in other organizations.

Of course, CAPR 39-3 is not clear on what constitutes qualifying community services, so it's up to the commanders to determine that.

I would agree.....if we gave a "BSA Ribbon"  Or a "GSA" ribbon or something similar.

We ARE rewarding community service........it just so happens that SO is the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Church, School, etc.

By saying "it doesn't count if you get credit from someone else" means we are making it HARDER for someone who is active with the BSA, school, their church, etc.

One member is a real go getter or goes to a school that requires community service....he does his 60 hours..."sorry, dude.....nice job but we don't care about your community service becuase you got your church's good deed certificate'.

Another member is a real go getter....but is just involved with CAP....he does his 60 hours..."Good job....here's your ribbon."!

Do you see where I am having a problem with this sort of attitude.  I understand where you come from......"it's double dipping".....but it is not....because it is two different organizations.....

If you read my subsequent post you'll see that what I meant was that I don't agree with someone getting credit for community service just because they belong to another organization. Attending meetings or activities of organizations such as BSA should not constitute community service in and of itself. I don't have a problem with those seeking credit for working on a community project as part of those organizations.

The problem is that because the criteria in CAPR 39-3 is a bit vague, some commanders give credit for just attending meetings of these organizations because the members are "volunteering". I don't believe that is the intent of this ribbon, as it is a Community Service Ribbon, not a "volunteer organization membership ribbon".

[TankerT]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

I would like to point out that the US Military awards decorations for valor and lifesaving for actions that do not happen while service members are on duty.

Correct. In fact being an active member of CAP for say a year or more and then get your leadership there to write an at-a-boy letter to your Military Chain-of-Command and you would qualify for a Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

I wasn't even thinking of the MOVSM.  I had the Soldier's and Airman's medals in mind.  Those often involve heroism or valor, and have been awarded to many off duty soldiers and airmen. 

[Walkman]

I have the CSR with 2 clasps. All 180 hours come from 10+ years as a leader in BSA. I put in a ton more than that, really. Heck you could look at one week of scout camp as 168 hours if you wanna' get really nit-picky (7 days @ 24 hrs a day). I did all those years as an unpaid volunteer, same as CAP. But my CAP life and my BSA life only combined twice: working with the troop in the Aviation and SAR merit badges.

On the point of a scout "double dipping", just to keep things in perspective and not to keep beating that horse: for Tenderfoot, 2nd & 1st class rank, there is no service requirement. For Star & life there is a service project requirement of 6 hours. The Eagle Project can broadly be classed as "community service" (depending on the project) and the number of hours varies greatly. So, the reality of a scout who is also a CAP cadet "double dipping" and getting the CSR for service hours in scouts isn't going to be something we see often, if at all.

Regardless of one's personal opinions on the CSR:
1) It's an authorized ribbon for CAP
2) The spirit and intent of the award is to recognize & encourage CAP members being active in serving their community outside CAP
3) If a CC has a personal issue with the existence of the award, they do not have the right to deny a member who has completed the requirements spelled out in the regs in good faith

We can debate the pros & cons of the CSR until the cows come home, but that's the facts.

[Storm Chaser]

On the point of a scout "double dipping", just to keep things in perspective and not to keep beating that horse: for Tenderfoot, 2nd & 1st class rank, there is no service requirement. For Star & life there is a service project requirement of 6 hours. The Eagle Project can broadly be classed as "community service" (depending on the project) and the number of hours varies greatly. So, the reality of a scout who is also a CAP cadet "double dipping" and getting the CSR for service hours in scouts isn't going to be something we see often, if at all.

As I said before, the problem is not getting credit for a community project done as part of the BSA or any other organization. The problem is, as I see it, that because the criteria of what constitutes community service in CAPR 39-3 is not clear, some have interpret it as meaning that if you're a member in any of these organizations, you can claim this membership as community service. I disagree.

I recently had a cadet draft a letter requesting credit for community service based on hours spent at regular CAP squadron meetings. That's not community service; not for a cadet, anyway.

[Walkman]

The problem is, as I see it, that because the criteria of what constitutes community service in CAPR 39-3 is not clear, some have interpret it as meaning that if you're a member in any of these organizations, you can claim this membership as community service. I disagree.

I see where you're going. Here's how this could be explained in your hypothetical: the regs state that 60 HOURS of service be performed. Simply being a member of an organization doesn't mean that someone has put in any time in that organization. We're all familiar with CAP members that are on the books but are never at meetings, right? The hours need to be substantiated in some way.

The service must be verified by a volunteer coordinator.

So it is actually pretty clear cut. Anyone who wants to recieve the award needs to have someone from the other organization proved some sort of official certification for the hours worked. If Joe Palooka shows up to the local food kitchen and asks the director for a letter stating he's worked 60 hours there, what are the chances they're going to get it if no one knows who he is?

[MHC5096]

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

No, I do not.

I would like to point out that the US Military awards decorations for valor and lifesaving for actions that do not happen while service members are on duty.

Correct. In fact being an active member of CAP for say a year or more and then get your leadership there to write an at-a-boy letter to your Military Chain-of-Command and you would qualify for a Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Outstanding_Volunteer_Service_Medal

I wasn't even thinking of the MOVSM.  I had the Soldier's and Airman's medals in mind.  Those often involve heroism or valor, and have been awarded to many off duty soldiers and airmen.

The Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals come to mind as well.

[Private Investigator]

Seriously?

I agree with Ned 300%, thank you sir  :clap:

[NIN]

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.

I am obviously not against community service, I am against double-dipping and ribbon trolling nothing more complicated then that.

Well, I think a cadet who jumps out of his car and saves someone on the highway is neither double-dipping nor ribbon trolling.

Now, if he just handed out business cards, 'nuther matter entirely.

[Alaric]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1431

Community Service Ribbon is a valuable tool in my opinion, and is no more or less "ribbon-trolling" or "double-dipping" then the stars on the Leadership Ribbon, the Crossfield Award, the Command Service Ribbon; now that the Yeager Award is a required part of Level III, once you are wearing the Loening award, the Yeager award.  If you've got active members that are also giving 60+ hours volunteering at food banks, coaching some youth group, doing (unpaid) tutoring for after-school programs, etc.  Why not recognize them

[smithwr2]

Good discussion.... I heard back from the folks at Knowledgebase and they put the judgement for the CSR questions back on the Squadron Commander.

For my own field guideline, I will use the rule of "if in CAP uniform, then no CSR credit".  That rule would cover just about all situations since we are always in some kind of uniform when involved in CAP organized and conducted community activities.

[Storm Chaser]

^ I think that's a good rule of thumb, but I would emphasize the community service part. If a member is working on a community service or project outside of CAP, regardless of the organization sponsoring the service, then they qualify for credit towards the ribbon. Attending meetings or training of another organization does not constitute community service in and of itself. There has to be an actual service that benefits or contributes to the community.

[BFreemanMA]

My squadron interpreted that rule in the same way as Stormchaser: obviously, going out on a SAREX or mission, while helpful to the community, wouldn't qualify as it's directly related to CAP and done as a CAP activity. However, in my case, I work with a lot of local theater organizations and was able to get an email certifying my hours from the group directors. Since it's an activity outside of CAP, I was awarded the CSR.

On the other hand, our squadron organized an optional event where we helped our local Girl Scouts chapters distribute cookies to other troops. We were there "as CAP", but it wasn't directly related to CAP or any of our missions. As such, the event earned us credit that was able to be put towards any given member's CSR.

[Eclipse]

On the other hand, our squadron organized an optional event where we helped our local Girl Scouts chapters distribute cookies to other troops. We were there "as CAP", but it wasn't directly related to CAP or any of our missions. As such, the event earned us credit that was able to be put towards any given member's CSR.

If you're there as CAP, in >ANY< capacity, no CSR.  That's clearly in the regs.

There's no such thing as "there as CAP, but not a CAP activity".  If you're wearing the uniform, it's supposed to have been approved
by a CC somewhere.

[BFreemanMA]

That's...a fair point. I think I might point my command staff towards the regs for that portion.

[Storm Chaser]

i.   Community Service Ribbon.  Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol. The service must be verified by a volunteer coordinator. Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition. A bronze clasp may be added for each additional 60 hours of community service.

(emphasis mine)

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Encouraging Community Service outside of CAP seems to be the intent of the regulation. As written, are we shooing ourselves in the foot from a PR standpoint?

I don't think anyone on this thread thinks we should double dip and award time that would count toward SAR ribbon to the CSR. Ditto any time spent on the CAP missions.

Now let's say there is a clean up effort in a park near the Random Cadet Squadron^TM. For PR purposes would we be better off having 6 cadets in civilian clothes participating or the same 6 with a Senior member in uniform helping out? As the CSR reg is written it's "better" for the cadets to not be in uniform.

Could this lead to confusion. Sure. But just from this thread there appears to be confusion. Perhaps the Group / Wing CC could be the approver of the activity for CSR credit.

Other threads today have mentioned the recruiting & retention issue. Would CAP visibly involved in the community provide additional PR / recruiting opportunities? I'd guess yes. Cost? A bunch of cadets with 1 more ribbon.

[Eclipse]

Or just participate in CAP and not expect bling.  No PR issues, no confusion.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It's an odd write up, that's all. As mentioned, wouldn't we benefit from doing something as CAP for the community, giving us much needed visibility + benefiting community? I get that a lot of people are involved with their churches, schools, other organizations, etc. By why not then give the option for units to do non-core CAP service for the community? Liability insurance? Must be the only thing that makes sense.

[Eclipse]

That's part of it - if you're in uniform and you mess up, CAP is going to be on the hook - even filing a response by a lawyer that
CAP wasn't involved costs money.

Further, CAP isn't, and shouldn't be seen supporting religious, business (even some other 501cs), or personal interests, and a
lot of community service "stuff" is sponsored by one or all of those.

It would curl your hair to know about some of the requests I've seen to do things as CAP activities.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's part of it - if you're in uniform and you mess up, CAP is going to be on the hook - even filing a response by a lawyer that
CAP wasn't involved costs money.

Further, CAP isn't, and shouldn't be seen supporting religious, business (even some other 501cs), or personal interests, and a
lot of community service "stuff" is sponsored by one or all of those.

It would curl your hair to know about some of the requests I've seen to do things as CAP activities.

I've heard of some interesting ones already.


That said...the rule is probably there to not do things as "CAP" to protect CAP Inc. I get that.


If we want people to serve their communities, then go to soup kitchens, clean up a park, shovel snow for the elderly in the winter (my city has an organization for that!), etc.


For me, the flip of that coin is stuff like "Paint the church", which certainly gets credit as community service for the CSR and I know an insane amount of Eagle scouts who did just that for their project to wrap that up. Sure it helps the community, more specifically a congregation, but not the community at large.

[Private Investigator]

Now let's say there is a clean up effort in a park near the Random Cadet Squadron^TM. For PR purposes would we be better off having 6 cadets in civilian clothes participating or the same 6 with a Senior member in uniform helping out? As the CSR reg is written it's "better" for the cadets to not be in uniform.


A bunch of cadets with 1 more ribbon.

In this scenario, could the CSR be upgraded to a Unit Citation if the Head Park Ranger wrote a letter saying cleaning the park made it safer for the public. 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Now let's say there is a clean up effort in a park near the Random Cadet Squadron^TM. For PR purposes would we be better off having 6 cadets in civilian clothes participating or the same 6 with a Senior member in uniform helping out? As the CSR reg is written it's "better" for the cadets to not be in uniform.


A bunch of cadets with 1 more ribbon.

In this scenario, could the CSR be upgraded to a Unit Citation if the Head Park Ranger wrote a letter saying cleaning the park made it safer for the public. 

Almost any idea can be taken to extremes. No Yogi, the Ranger can not give you that Unit Citation Basket.

Eclipse brought up the religion / business issue while in uniform. That would really limit the options.

[Jaison009]

I think Cadet Rae was pretty outstanding and definitely fit the criteria for a SMOV. Pretty bad A and proud we could/can claim him.

Active CAP membership >is< community service, and we're supposed to be encouraging our membership
to participate in CAP, not other organizations. 

Seriously?

Where is that written in any of our regulations or doctrine?

I obviously agree that CAP membership is community service, but we have always been about encouraging our members to engage outside of CAP service.

The mission of CAP is not supporting CAP.  It is something to the effect of service to our community, state, and nation.  Nowhere does it say that we can or should only do that through direct CAP service.

Just speaking for the largest mission in CAP -- CP -- our stated mission is "transform youth into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders." (CAPR 52-16, para 1-2.)  If we simply produce 26,000 Spaatz cadets a year who do not engage in their communities as leaders, we will not have succeeded; we will have failed in our mission.

We encourage cadets to engage in their schooling by requiring good grades.

We encourage cadets to engage with their faith communities through things like "CAP Sunday."

We encourage cadets to engage with other youth organizations through things like Red Ribbon Week and Wreaths Across America.

And the list goes on . . .

But even more importantly, the fact that cadets need to engage in other community service beyond CAP in order to succeed as a dynamic American and aerospace leader is self -evident.

A cadet applying to the Air Force Academy or a AFROTC scholarship with a Spaatz, a 4.0, and nothing else is going to be less successful than another cadet with a Spaatz, a 3.8, varsity letters, student government experience, and a strong history of volunteering in her/his community.

We need to be sure that our cadets have a broad and active sense of committment to service.  And it sure doesn't hurt for our seniors to do so as well.

So, yes, CAP does have similar motives for encouraging volunteer community service as do our military service colleagues -- development of the individual through additional selfless service, support to our communities, and improved relations between the communities and the parent service, which in our case is CAP.

CAP decorations should be for CAP service.  Let other organizations recognize their people and never the twain meet.

So you don't support CAP decorations for valor or lifesaving if the actions don't happen to occur during CAP activities? 

Like, for example, the example set by Cadet Adam Rae of Colorado Wing who came across a car crash in August of 2005:

Cadet Adam T. Rae, CAP, distinguished himself by conspicuous, heroic action when he risked his own life to save another on 20 August 2005. While driving home with two of his friends, Cadet Rae witnessed a horrific car crash. The car hit two trees at an extremely high rate of speed, and actually broke in half. Rae stopped his car and jumped out. He ran to the nearest portion of the wreck, and saw a passenger inside who obviously had not survived. Then Adam heard a woman bystander scream that the driver was trapped inside the front half, and the vehicle had caught on fire. With disregard for his own safety, Rae ran to the car and was able to open the door. He managed to unfasten the driver's seat belt, burning his hands in the process. He dragged the driver out and away from the burning wreck. His two friends, meanwhile, ran to a nearby restaurant and got two fire extinguishers. As Rae examined the driver he noted the man was unconscious, and had massive wounds and profuse bleeding. An arriving Colorado State Trooper gave Rae a set of medical gloves and he attempted to stem the blood flow by asking for shirts from the gathering spectators. Cadet Rae noticed that the man was having trouble breathing because of an accumulation of blood in his airway. He immediately began CPR. As his friends attempted to extinguish the fire, flame-ups twice exploded, knocking all three to the ground. With continued disregard to his own personal safety Rae performed CPR on the victim for 12 minutes until firefighters arrived. A firefighter took over CPR and Rae intubated the victim and operated the bag valve mask while also tending to the victim's massive head wounds. Cadet Adam Rae remained cool in an emergency and exhibited a courage and perseverance. He is credited by the emergency personnel at the scene and by the American Red Cross with saving a life at obvious peril to his own. Cadet Rae's quick thinking, heroic action and complete disregard for his own personal safety reflects great credit upon himself, Thompson Valley Composite Squadron, the Colorado Wing, and Civil Air Patrol.

So we have no business recognizing such heroism?

Really?

[lordmonar]

It's an odd write up, that's all. As mentioned, wouldn't we benefit from doing something as CAP for the community, giving us much needed visibility + benefiting community? I get that a lot of people are involved with their churches, schools, other organizations, etc. By why not then give the option for units to do non-core CAP service for the community? Liability insurance? Must be the only thing that makes sense.

This stems from how the reg used to be written.

The idea was not to use thing like an Air Show or doing SAR to be part of the community service ribbon.   I think they went to far....by saying any community service "conducted by CAP" does not count.   Like many have pointed out....CAP often gets asked by community organizations for assistance.   VFW, BSA, GSA, Earthday just to name a few.   If the unit decides to support these efforts....then the hour don't count.  So what happens......the unit may tell their people about the volunteer opportunity but does not organize a unit participation. 

That's a loose....loose in my opinion.

IMHO, we need to go the other direction.  We should require our cadets and member to get community service hours, and we should be encouraging our units to participate in these activities as UNITS.

That way it is a win-win.....the community gets a direct impact from units beyond just ES.......members are encouraged to further serve their communities (as is part of the cadet oath).   CAP get's the visibility of "helping the community" in ways that don't involve death, injury or disaster.

That's the end of my rant.

Unit their is a change in the regulations.......if it is "conducted by CAP" then it does not count for the CSR, even if CAP does not directly benefit from the service. 

[Private Investigator]

Now let's say there is a clean up effort in a park near the Random Cadet Squadron^TM. For PR purposes would we be better off having 6 cadets in civilian clothes participating or the same 6 with a Senior member in uniform helping out? As the CSR reg is written it's "better" for the cadets to not be in uniform.


A bunch of cadets with 1 more ribbon.

In this scenario, could the CSR be upgraded to a Unit Citation if the Head Park Ranger wrote a letter saying cleaning the park made it safer for the public. 

Almost any idea can be taken to extremes. No Yogi, the Ranger can not give you that Unit Citation Basket.

Can Yogi get the Unit Citation Basket, if the Ranger wrote to MG Carr?