Vanguard quality.....

[Shuman 14]

Various, some was done in-house, some outsourced.  I believe VG was actually a supplier as well.

NHQ didn't want to keep the people on the payroll who were responsible for sourcing / ordering / inventorying, etc.

Personally, that sounds like an excellent job for volunteers.

I can see that but when your volunteers take days off and orders get backed up... that could be a problem.

[Eclipse]

Paid employees take time off, too, and if it's an issue, make sure you have enough coverage so no one
is overworked.

I would be willing to be that members would trade higher quality and lower price for instant-shipping.

[Shuman 14]

Paid employees take time off, too, and if it's an issue, make sure you have enough coverage so no one
is overworked.

I would be willing to bet that members would trade higher quality and lower price for instant-shipping.

I'm sure they would too.

I'm pretty sure if they could legally buy what they wanted from anyplace other than Scamguard they would do that too.

[a2capt]

The flip side of this is part of the contract means they need to have the stuff available, be it something that 6 members need, or 6,000.

The free market won't support the six people ..

[Shuman 14]

The flip side of this is part of the contract means they need to have the stuff available, be it something that 6 members need, or 6,000.

The free market won't support the six people ..

No it will, it just means those six will just have to pay more.

I'll give you an example. Have a friend who earned a Combat Action Badge (CAB) in Iraq. He's also a USCGAux member.

Wear of the CAB by Auxies is approved... but no one made a white/silver thread on blue sew-on badge for his Operational Dress Uniform (ODU).

(ODU is about the same as BBDU's that CAP uses.)

He looked far and wide and found one of the online nametape vendors/producers to make him a few sets as a custom order. Cost him a bit more, but to him it was worth it.

Now, as to CAP and Scamguard, it use to be that there were numerous online venders that carried CAP badges and/or Military badges in CAP colors for BDUs, BBDUs and flightsuits. Once Scamguard got the "exclusive" rights to produce these items, they threatened to file lawsuits against these other producers for "trademark infringement".

Now you have a monopoly that doesn't do quality control and really only cares about making money.

The better answer is to let all these other vendors make CAP stuff as they like and if it doesn't meet standards and specifications let that be enforced by the buyers (i.e. Hey these ICS Badges look like crap, I'm sending them back.) and those buyers' local commander. (i.e. Those wings are way to big in size, sorry you can't wear them on a CAP uniform.)

[Ned]

I'll give you an example. Have a friend who earned a Combat Action Badge (CAB) in Iraq. He's also a USCGAux member.

Wear of the CAB by Auxies is approved... but no one made a white/silver thread on blue sew-on badge for his Operational Dress Uniform (ODU).

I'm not sure your friend's example is on point.  He found it was expensive to have a non-USCGA badge produced to USCGA standards.  Many CAP members have the same sort of issue with Army (or other military) badges or devices for their BDUs that are not normally available in "white on ultramarine blue."

But the subject we are discussing is VG, our supplier of "CAP specific" insignia, badges, and devices. 

The difference is that VG is contractually obligated to produce all of CAP's currently authorized insignia, and make them available to our members at a reasonable price.  And  in an efficient, customer-friendly manner.  If your friend had had difficulty obtaining a USCGA award or insignia through their authorized supplier(s), then that would be a problem for both your friend and the USCGA.  But my guess is that the USCGA, just like CAP, the BSA, and the Knights of Columbus, and almost any other organization that has distinctive uniforms and insignia, contracts with a supplier to make sure that all of the insignia is available to their members at a good quality and a good price.

To answer your earlier question, CAP outsourced our insignia business after literally decades of doing it ourselves and losing buckets of (members' hard-earned) money in so doing.  Even after multiple reorganizations and tweaks to the business model.  Our leaders wisely decided that perhaps running a retail insignia business and associated warehouse was not one of our core competencies and set up a competitive bidding process for that function that VG eventually won.  As part of that contract, VG pays a license fee for CAP-specific items back to CAP which is fenced for training.  Usually something over $100,000 a year, which so far has been returned directly to regional training centers and the regions directly.  Last year each region CP shop received a sizable grant.

We stopped losing buckets of money, and the members have received the same or better service at roughly the same prices.  Win - win.

Now, as to CAP and Scamguard, it use to be that there were numerous online venders that carried CAP badges and/or Military badges in CAP colors for BDUs, BBDUs and flightsuits. Once Scamguard got the "exclusive" rights to produce these items, they threatened to file lawsuits against these other producers for "trademark infringement".

Sort of, but not really.  VG does not own any of the rights to CAP's intellectual property.  If and when a "cease and desist letter" needs to go out to a business attempting to make money from the trademarks and other intellectual property assigned by public law to CAP by the US Congress, the letter goes out from our own Corporate Counsel, not VG.

Any business model that involves pirating somebody else's trademarks for fun and profit is probably not a sustainable model in any event.

Now you have a monopoly that doesn't do quality control and really only cares about making money.

Again, not really.  As I mentioned earlier, exclusive supplier arrangements are pretty much the norm for this kind of situation.  Try buying Girl Scout uniforms or other items from anyone other than an authorized supplier.  Or NFL merchandise.  Or a full sized replacement Army Achievement medal.

If we allowed anyone, anywhere to make our insignia it would be a rapid "race to the bottom" as every off-shore supplier in the world competed to make the crappiest merchandise that an uniformed cadet or parent would buy off the internet.  Plus we would lose the licensing fees which in a very real way reduce the dues that we all pay.

That fact that VG is a "for profit" business in America is not a sin.  Every business is organized to make money for the owners.

But contrary to your assertion, they have every motivation to perform well on their contract and provide good service and prices for our members.  For the pragmatic business reason that every contract ends at some point, and if they are making money they are going to want to renew it.  And crappy customer service is just the kind of thing that will make our leaders consider a different supplier.

So, if you are unhappy with the service or quality from VG, contact them directly.  They will make it good.  If you are still unhappy, contact your chain of command.  Ultimately it is the senior leadership who decides who gets the next contract for this service, and it is important that they hear from you whenever the service is either poor or exceptionally good.

[a2capt]

Not the same.

Authorized by, but not a CAP award/device/thing is definitely a -his problem- where as an award that CAP has in it's regulations, that is governed by it, needs to be available like everything else.

As well, the military versions of authorized badges are able to be worn on the AF style uniform, in their available versions.

CAPM 39-1para 6-7, Table 6-4, item 18,  & Table 6-5. No need to get white on ultramarine versions created. 

[Eclipse]

Ned,

Why is NHQ C&D vendors of generic products like nametapes and name tags which do not have any CAP indications
except the generic words like "CIVIL"?

In these cases the product was better, cheaper, faster, and NOT something CAP owns.

But thanks to those lawyer letters, we're cut off from that, simply because the vendor doesn't want to be bothered.

[a2capt]

..and the air crew badges that the Big V makes just pale compared to what Hollicks and other vendors offered in both quality and price.

But that's all we get now. 4 pieces for $20, that lasted a few years, vs. the edge peeling jokester product that Vanguard ships.

[Ned]

Ned,

Why is NHQ C&D vendors of generic products like nametapes and name tags which do not have any CAP indications
except the generic words like "CIVIL"?

In these cases the product was better, cheaper, faster, and NOT something CAP owns.

But thanks to those lawyer letters, we're cut off from that, simply because the vendor doesn't want to be bothered.

Bob,

I'm not sure I can agree with your premise.

Basically, we will C&D any improper production or use of our property.

The reverse is also true, we will not C&D production of something that is not our property.

My experience in the business world is limited, of course, but it is my impression that business owners normally have a pretty good sense of whether they are entitled to make or sell a given product, and are rarely discouraged by letters that have no basis in fact.  On a related note, I hope that all business owners are discouraged when they receive a C&D letter from the owners of the IP in question.

[Eclipse]

No company is going to bother even responding to a lawyer letter if it doesn't make economic sense, even when they are right.

In this case, we had no issue accepting them as a sponsor, but then decided they couldn't make generic items, even though
they were superior quality, less expensive, and easier to get.

It's at least understandable when we're talking about things which are clearly CAP indices, but stuff like this just makes us
look overbearing and as if we have a vendor's interest over the membership's.

[SarDragon]

Can I ask why they went away from the in-house bookstore to Vanguard?

NHQ felt it was more economical to outsource.

OK, I can see that, but who produced the actual products for the bookstore?

What I'm saying is maybe CAP should go back to that company or maybe ease up on their trademark policies so that the free market will solve the quality control problems that currently exist.

As stated elsewhere, Vanguard was the major supplier. I had a long chat with the Sales Manager at the California location, not long after they got the contract, and got a lot of information about the operation. One of my Qs was availability of CAP items at the CA location. Answer - since The Bookstore was in their east coast marketing region, that's where the CAP stuff would be handled.

[NIN]

<snippage>
Now, as to CAP and Scamguard, it use to be that there were numerous online venders that carried CAP badges and/or Military badges in CAP colors for BDUs, BBDUs and flightsuits. Once Scamguard got the "exclusive" rights to produce these items, they threatened to file lawsuits against these other producers for "trademark infringement".

Now you have a monopoly that doesn't do quality control and really only cares about making money.

The better answer is to let all these other vendors make CAP stuff as they like and if it doesn't meet standards and specifications let that be enforced by the buyers (i.e. Hey these ICS Badges look like crap, I'm sending them back.) and those buyers' local commander. (i.e. Those wings are way to big in size, sorry you can't wear them on a CAP uniform.)

There were many variants in online vendors. Some were excellent. Some were not.  Tom at the Hock Shop had some hit-or-miss stuff with his insignia. Example: the very, very tough backing that his embroidered insignia was made with.  Ugh, what a pain that stuff was.

OTOH, IMHO the folks at Spur Nametags made some really solid CAP & name tapes.  My unit used to order our basic training kits from the Bookstore and we switched (prior to the rampant C&Ds) to getting nametapes and CAP tapes from Spur, partly due to cost and partly due to service (I think Spur's cost was about $1 cheaper per cadet than thru the Bookstore and their turn around time was significantly shorter).

BTW, getting white-on-ultramarine versions of military insignia produced (jump wings, air assault badges, air crew wings) is not similarly controlled by Vanguard or CAP. CAP does not have an intellectual property lock on the color ultramarine.

You can surely wear the "subdued on OD" versions of insignia per the 39-1, but honestly, I think that looks awful (I did it for years when "other services aviation badges" were authorized on the right side, over the CAP tape.). After the first couple years, I built up a stash of "white on OD" badges in my supply box that I picked up at various militaria shows. That, to me, was a *little* less jarring than full-on subdued along with full-color.


Like this
(still on the right side back then. That was 1992)
and
(1998)
and
(2000)
and
(2005)

Eventually, I had Spur make me some wings white-on-ultramarine. I think they look a MILLION times better than either subdued-on-OD or white-on-OD on the CAP uniform.

(2007 or so)
and this past November (attached)

[Luis R. Ramos]

What is that specialty? A new one?

Ground Team Assault, to guard crash sites?



Flyer

[Shuman 14]

Ned,

Why is NHQ C&D vendors of generic products like nametapes and name tags which do not have any CAP indications
except the generic words like "CIVIL"?

In these cases the product was better, cheaper, faster, and NOT something CAP owns.

But thanks to those lawyer letters, we're cut off from that, simply because the vendor doesn't want to be bothered.

That was the point I was trying to make, you've summed it up much better.

[Shuman 14]

..and the air crew badges that the Big V makes just pale compared to what Hollicks and other vendors offered in both quality and price.

But that's all we get now. 4 pieces for $20, that lasted a few years, vs. the edge peeling jokester product that Vanguard ships.

Another good point... barely meeting specifications or better than specifications... I'd take better then specs every time.

[Shuman 14]

LTC Ninness, I have to agree the matching white on blue look much better.

[NIN]

LTC Ninness, I have to agree the matching white on blue look much better.

I should point out:

If you look at my most-recent photo and the one from 2007-2008 or so, look closely at the Civil Air Patrol tapes and compare them.

Vanguard started doing nametapes as the fabric strips vs the webbing that nametags were originally made with for the last ~35+ years.  I was *very* skeptical when I got them in the mail this last time around.  Fabric-strip name tags were very popular when I was in Korea for locally-sourced name tags and they did weird things (fading, etc).

I have to say, so far, that I'm fairly happy/impressed with these. They sew on nicely, they seem to be very dimensionally stable, and in comparison to the "old" style, they're far, far more regular in their shape.

[LegacyAirman]

LTC Ninness, I have to agree the matching white on blue look much better.

I should point out:

If you look at my most-recent photo and the one from 2007-2008 or so, look closely at the Civil Air Patrol tapes and compare them.

Vanguard started doing nametapes as the fabric strips vs the webbing that nametags were originally made with for the last ~35+ years.  I was *very* skeptical when I got them in the mail this last time around.  Fabric-strip name tags were very popular when I was in Korea for locally-sourced name tags and they did weird things (fading, etc).

I have to say, so far, that I'm fairly happy/impressed with these. They sew on nicely, they seem to be very dimensionally stable, and in comparison to the "old" style, they're far, far more regular in their shape.

AAFES sells CAP tapes:
https://shop.aafes.com/shop/Product.aspx?dept_id=15025&PFID=X800X2&gid=&AskReturn=search
and name tapes:
https://shop.aafes.com/shop/Product.aspx?dept_id=15025&PFID=X800X2&gid=&AskReturn=search

I must admit ignorance to their quality as I've haven't ordered any yet, but they appear to be embroidered on the traditional "webbing" type strip.

[PHall]

LTC Ninness, I have to agree the matching white on blue look much better.

I should point out:

If you look at my most-recent photo and the one from 2007-2008 or so, look closely at the Civil Air Patrol tapes and compare them.

Vanguard started doing nametapes as the fabric strips vs the webbing that nametags were originally made with for the last ~35+ years.  I was *very* skeptical when I got them in the mail this last time around.  Fabric-strip name tags were very popular when I was in Korea for locally-sourced name tags and they did weird things (fading, etc).

I have to say, so far, that I'm fairly happy/impressed with these. They sew on nicely, they seem to be very dimensionally stable, and in comparison to the "old" style, they're far, far more regular in their shape.

AAFES sells CAP tapes:
https://shop.aafes.com/shop/Product.aspx?dept_id=15025&PFID=X800X2&gid=&AskReturn=search
and name tapes:
https://shop.aafes.com/shop/Product.aspx?dept_id=15025&PFID=X800X2&gid=&AskReturn=search

I must admit ignorance to their quality as I've haven't ordered any yet, but they appear to be embroidered on the traditional "webbing" type strip.

Same quality as the other tapes they make. You can see their product on just about any set of ABU's you see on base.