Death of the orange PAWG cap?

[Panache]

So, I was perusing the draft 39-1, and I notice this section...

9.4 Items which May be Authorized by Wing Commander - Wing Commanders may authorize the following items to be worn for specific purposes within their respective wing or within specific units of their wing. Commanders will not use this authority to circumvent National policy. In all cases, these items will have no national significance or recognition as a part of the CAP uniform. They will not be worn at summer encampments or national events (cadet exchange, special activities, etc.), unless specifically authorized by National Headquarters. They may be worn only while performing the duty for which the use of the items was authorized. Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the authorizing commander. Examples of purposes of these items are to identify members of special CAP groups such as drill teams, bands, color guards, and members participating in emergency services'
missions.
9.4.1.1 Shoulder Cords. {..snip..}
9.4.1.2 Scarves.  {..snip..}
9.4.1.3 White Gloves.  {..snip..}
9.4.1.4 White and black belts.  {..snip..}
9.4.1.5 Helmet liners/Hardhat. Color to be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white and will be worn with a decal of the Emergency Services Patch (Version 1 or 2).
9.4.1.6 Beret. Only blue berets may be authorized under this paragraph.

(emphasis mine)

I could find no mention of authorizing orange caps for general wear with the uniform, and this section seems pretty cut-and-dry that a Wing CC putting out a supplement to authorize it is verboten.  Now, the orange baseball cap is authorized in 9.2.4 under "National Special Activities", but the way I read it is that it is only authorized while at Hawk Mt. proper.

   :clap:

[NIN]

Now, the orange baseball cap is authorized in 9.2.4 under "National Special Activities", but the way I read it is that it is only authorized while at Hawk Mt. proper.

   :clap:

I don't mind the carrot-top in the field (hey, you know, "visibility", "safety," whatever) but the outright "I need to wear my various and sundry orange hats, either with squadron numbers, or some embroidered Hawk Mtn logo, or one that looks like I swatted out an entire forest fire with it, while everybody else has to wear BDU caps" at squadron meetings, activities, etc is annoying.

UNI form. Uni=ONE. If you're in BDUs, you should look more or less like everybody else. Not one blaze-orange turd in the punchbowl.

[LSThiker]

They still can:

5.1.2.8Headgear. Headgear. Wear of headgear is mandatory. Either the BDU Cap, the CAP Baseball Cap or the Black Watch cap (when in a cold weather environment), may be worn.

6.2.11 CAP Baseball Cap. Wing and region commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and/or emblem to be on the baseball cap. Appropriate civilian headgear may be worn during inclement weather. No rank insignia may be worn on this cap, and no emblems (clouds, darts, etc.) may be worn on the cap visor.

Since wing commanders can prescribe color, the PAWG CC can state that members wear orange.  The Hawk Mtn graduates however cannot wear them in their home states unless allowed.

[Panache]

They still can:
(snip)

(reads relevant sections, sighs heavily)

[Panache]

I guess it can be argued that 5.1.2.8 leaves the decision of the headgear up to the individual...

[JoeTomasone]

The real question: Will the Hawk folks finally have to get rid of all the other non-approved addition to their "mountain attire" like the ascot?  Will there be revolt?

[Panache]

The real question: Will the Hawk folks finally have to get rid of all the other non-approved addition to their "mountain attire" like the ascot?  Will there be revolt?

9.4.1.2 seems to allow the Wing CC to approve that.

[Storm Chaser]

More specifically, CAPM 39-1 Draft states:

9.2.4 Hawk Mountain Ranger Training. Graduates of this program may wear one Ranger tab awarded in accordance what that activity's procedures on the USAF-style BDU and Blue Field uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in Chapter 5. The orange baseball cap with squadron number or keystone device with grade insignia may also be worn with the USAF-style BDU and Blue Field uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in Chapter 5. Cloth grade insignia must be worn on the orange baseball cap when wearing the AF-style BDU uniform. Metal or cloth grade insignia may be worn on the orange baseball cap when wearing the CAP distinctive field uniform. (emphasis mine)

[Devil Doc]

I like my Orange Hat, with a Big Brazen Logo on the Front of the hat of my Unit. I hate the BDU Cap, If it was an 5 Point, different story.

[NIN]

The real question: Will the Hawk folks finally have to get rid of all the other non-approved addition to their "mountain attire" like the ascot?  Will there be revolt?

Is that a question? LOL.

[JoeTomasone]

The real question: Will the Hawk folks finally have to get rid of all the other non-approved addition to their "mountain attire" like the ascot?  Will there be revolt?

9.4.1.2 seems to allow the Wing CC to approve that.

That's for a scarf, not an ascot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascot_tie

[UH60guy]

More specifically, CAPM 39-1 Draft states:

9.2.4 Hawk Mountain Ranger Training. Graduates of this program may wear one Ranger tab awarded in accordance what that activity's procedures on the USAF-style BDU and Blue Field uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in Chapter 5. The orange baseball cap with squadron number or keystone device with grade insignia may also be worn with the USAF-style BDU and Blue Field uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in Chapter 5. Cloth grade insignia must be worn on the orange baseball cap when wearing the AF-style BDU uniform. Metal or cloth grade insignia may be worn on the orange baseball cap when wearing the CAP distinctive field uniform. (emphasis mine)

I'm a little confused on this paragraph. The other NCSA paragraphs refer to graduates of the program, or specifically mention something during training.
It mentions graduates for HMRS, but there are no stipulations for the orange hat other than to follow Chapter 5 (reference just says you put it on your head when in BDUs). I am sure the intent is to just authorize it only during training- but why don't they go the way of the other NCSA paragraphs and say that it could be worn "during the activity?" I ask now, and may sound silly, but just you wait: some hard-charging bling chaser HMRS graduate is going to show up with an orange cap in formation in say Michigan Wing.

Proposed solution: Take all the special uniforms out of the NCSA sections. Include a single sentence that says something like "Uniform requirements specific to the NCSA will be identified and published in advance of the activity by the appropriate program coordinator at National Headquarters." This way we don't need to publish an ICL every time a NCSA changes its uniform, NCSAs get approval from higher for the uniform deviations so we don't end up with something like Liederhosen required for the Aerial Alpenhorn NCSA, and new NCSAs can be entered into the system in the future without 3rd order consequences to the uniform regulations.

Call my old fashioned, but a uniform regulation should preach uniformity. Deviations shouldn't be listed here, but with supplements at the specific Wing or activity.

[Slim]

I ask now, and may sound silly, but just you wait: some hard-charging bling chaser HMRS graduate is going to show up with an orange cap in formation in say Michigan Wing.

Not silly at all, it's happened, member told to get the proper hat.

[PHall]

I ask now, and may sound silly, but just you wait: some hard-charging bling chaser HMRS graduate is going to show up with an orange cap in formation in say Michigan Wing.

Not silly at all, it's happened, member told to get the proper hat.

We've had it happen all the way out here in California Wing!

[Pulsar]

http://pawg.cap.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/PAWG-Supp-39-1-Dec11.pdf

...Interesting



I wonder what it's like wearing a BDU cap. I know PAWG pilots are thankful for the orange hats, all they have to look for is a bunch of orange dots to know where the ground team is located.

[Panache]

That's over two years old, Pulsar.

[Pulsar]

That's over two years old, Pulsar.

How long has PAWG had orange caps? ...just curious

[Patterson]

From the PAWG supplement to 39-1

Added. When wearing the woodland BDU's, the only authorized headgear for all flights, squadrons, and groups chartered under the Pennsylvania Wing is the orange baseball hat. EXCEPTION: The blue baseball hat, with the PA Wing Staff insignia embroidered on the front, is authorized for wear by members of the PA Wing who are assigned to PA001 charter. PA Wing HQ members may wear the orange baseball hat when performing ES duties as appropriate to their ES position (i.e. Ground Team Leader, Ground Branch Director, etc.). The above headgear will be worn appropriately in accordance with CAPM 39-1.

So every member of PA Wing MUST wear orange ball caps EXCEPT the individuals requiring everyone else to wear orange ball caps (they may wear blue).  That's not just ridiculous, that in itself characterizes the type of people running the Wing.

Added. IAW CAPM 39-1, Table 1-3, Line 2, any PA Wing distinctive headgear will be worn within the boundaries of the Pennsylvania Wing only, and my not be worn to activities outside of Pennsylvania unless otherwise approved by the Wing Commander where the activity is taking place.

Unfortunately, the PAWG orange ball cap is exchanged for a BDU cover when a Member of Pennsylvania Wing leaves the Wing to attend activities/ training/ missions in Northeast Region. That alone should be reason enough to retire PAWGs orange hats.

[Patterson]

That's over two years old, Pulsar.

How long has PAWG had orange caps? ...just curious

Since the 1960's. Purely a Hawk Mountain uniform item that was allowed to leave the mountain.

[Panache]

So every member of PA Wing MUST wear orange ball caps EXCEPT the individuals requiring everyone else to wear orange ball caps (they may wear blue).  That's not just ridiculous, that in itself characterizes the type of people running the Wing.

I don't know anybody in the Wing who likes the orange caps.  Unfortunately, it's not a democracy, so I wear the godawful ugly thing.

Not surprised by the "rules for thee but not for me" thing.  It's of the same phenomena where, higher up in the command hierarchy you go, the more people you see wearing the AF-blues who really shouldn't.

[Pulsar]

  ..., that in itself characterizes the type of people running the Wing.

Maybe then, not now. Maybe some, but not all. 

Added. IAW CAPM 39-1, Table 1-3, Line 2, any PA Wing distinctive headgear will be worn within the boundaries of the Pennsylvania Wing only, and my not be worn to activities outside of Pennsylvania unless otherwise approved by the Wing Commander where the activity is taking place.

Unfortunately, the PAWG orange ball cap is exchanged for a BDU cover when a Member of Pennsylvania Wing leaves the Wing to attend activities/ training/ missions in Northeast Region. That alone should be reason enough to retire PAWGs orange hats.

:clap: :clap: I agree with you on that. Additionally, if orange caps are to  be worn, they should at least be all uniform...We who live in PAWG know especially how many different variations on orange, types of caps, and fonts of numbers there are.

...But then, let's not turn this into a topic on "why PAWG should change it's cover".   But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

[Eclipse]

But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

CAC has no business involving itself in uniform issues unless an echelon commander has asked for your input, and then
it would only be in regards to uniform issues specific to cadets.

[Pulsar]

But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

CAC has no business involving itself in uniform issues unless an echelon commander has asked for your input, and then
it would only be in regards to uniform issues specific to cadets.

Is there any hope at all of it being changed? If so, how?

[abdsp51]

But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

CAC has no business involving itself in uniform issues unless an echelon commander has asked for your input, and then
it would only be in regards to uniform issues specific to cadets.

Is there any hope at all of it being changed? If so, how?

Make the recommendation through your CoC.  Provide the reason why it should be changed, validate it and offer a replacement.  Include all the information in it as possible, and then let the cards lay where they lie.

[Eclipse]

But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

CAC has no business involving itself in uniform issues unless an echelon commander has asked for your input, and then
it would only be in regards to uniform issues specific to cadets.

Is there any hope at all of it being changed? If so, how?

Maybe, but not likely.  Considering it's the only wing with a specific CAP in 39-1, unless the Wing CC feels strongly enough to
not only push the change but also change the reg it's probably around for the long haul.

[Pulsar]

But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

CAC has no business involving itself in uniform issues unless an echelon commander has asked for your input, and then
it would only be in regards to uniform issues specific to cadets.

Is there any hope at all of it being changed? If so, how?

Make the recommendation through your CoC.  Provide the reason why it should be changed, validate it and offer a replacement.  Include all the information in it as possible, and then let the cards lay where they lie.

I'm sorry, what's "CoC"?    I come from a very small squadron...11 cadets, including 2 company grade cadet officers (including myself), and 2 SMs. We are trying to recruit.

[arajca]

CoC = Chain of Command

[abdsp51]

CoC = Chain of Command

Beat me to it.

[Pulsar]

CoC = Chain of Command

Oh. I'm not quite used to (that particular) abbreviation.
Thanks alot

[RMW14]

The issue of the Orange hat has been fought over since I was a cadet (I started in '95). Multiple people and multiple attempts at all levels of the wing tried to change to a normal bdu patrol style cap with multiple wing commanders. All attempt have failed. I believe the Wing views the Orange hat as a symbol of the wing. That is my opinion and not one that has been stated by any wing or group staff member. I do know that the current wing commander stated at an open question session at PAWG encampment 2013, that the orange cap will remain the only head gear authorized in PAWG. That I did hear with my own ears.

If the new 39-1 requires everyone to wear the same headgear (bdu cap, orange hats, purple mohawk knit beanie, etc) then I would assume that the California wing would have to ditch their modified ground team uniform as well.

Do I like the Orange? Not really for day to day use at meetings and whatnot. I think it is good for working in the woods but I also think that if doing work in a wooded area, the orange safety helmet may be a good idea too.

[Eclipse]

I believe the Wing views the Orange hat as a symbol of the wing.

So does everyone else.

Tracers work both ways.

If the new 39-1 requires everyone to wear the same headgear (bdu cap, orange hats, purple mohawk knit beanie, etc) then I would assume that the California wing would have to ditch their modified ground team uniform as well.

The draft doesn't mandate this at all, PAWG has a specific specification, and CAWG can just update their supplement if they deem it necessary.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Do I like the Orange? Not really for day to day use at meetings and whatnot. I think it is good for working in the woods but I also think that if doing work in a wooded area, the orange safety helmet may be a good idea too.

I think a pullover reflective orange safety vest would turn the trick just as well...and then you can take it off, fold it up and keep it for next time needed.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Plus I will bet a safety vest is more effective for visibility. Not only because of the reflective material but because it is larger than a measly hat with no reflective strips.

Flyer

[RMW14]

I was under the impression that the orange safety vests were mandatory for GSAR operations? The vest is more visible than just the orange hat in the woods.

Of course there is always the people who point out the fact that people hunt in PA. I am pretty positive that people hunt in the 49 other states of the union too but I may be mis-informed.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It must be something in PA woods unique to the state... Either the woods there are not as dense as the woods in the other 49 states so the orange cap is enough...



Or the woods there cower when a CAP member with an orange cap goes by and wilt down...



Notwithstanding the regulation that states it is obligatory to wear an ANSI Type II safety vest...

Flyer

[Panache]

I believe the Wing views the Orange hat as a symbol of the wing.

Maybe the Wing leadership.  I suspect that the majority of the rank-and-file who's not on Hawk Mountain disagree with this.

If the new 39-1 requires everyone to wear the same headgear (bdu cap, orange hats, purple mohawk knit beanie, etc) then I would assume that the California wing would have to ditch their modified ground team uniform as well.

CAWG can simply issue a supplement in accordance to 6.2.11 much like PAWG, to designate a high-visibility cap as the "CAP baseball cap".

It must be something in PA woods unique to the state... Either the woods there are not as dense as the woods in the other 49 states so the orange cap is enough...
Or the woods there cower when a CAP member with an orange cap goes by and wilt down...

Yes, it is drives the local environmentalists crazy.   

[FW]

So every member of PA Wing MUST wear orange ball caps EXCEPT the individuals requiring everyone else to wear orange ball caps (they may wear blue).  That's not just ridiculous, that in itself characterizes the type of people running the Wing.

I don't know anybody in the Wing who likes the orange caps.  Unfortunately, it's not a democracy, so I wear the godawful ugly thing.

Not surprised by the "rules for thee but not for me" thing.  It's of the same phenomena where, higher up in the command hierarchy you go, the more people you see wearing the AF-blues who really shouldn't.

Gee, I never realized organge baseball hats were such a problem.  WIWAWCC, any CAPR 39-1 hat was authorized for wear; each squadron/group commander could select the hat. The day after I steped down it changed, because of the popularity of orange in PAWG. I, however, don't wear the BDU or BBDU. It isn't an issue for me,  however in a "uniform" situation, we should all look "uniform"; hats included...

[Pulsar]

I was under the impression that the orange safety vests were mandatory for GSAR operations? The vest is more visible than just the orange hat in the woods.

Of course there is always the people who point out the fact that people hunt in PA. I am pretty positive that people hunt in the 49 other states of the union too but I may be mis-informed.

Yeah, go on and say it...We all look like hunters. 

Also, as far as I'm aware, the orange safety vests are mandatory for GSAR operations. PAWG ground teams still wear vests...they just have a hat too. Also, as stated earlier, the orange caps are more a symbol of the ranger school. They can be somewhat useful for ES, but that's not their primary...or secondary... (or anything) purpose.

[lordmonar]

WOW......of all the weird stuff PAWG does.....the orange hat is what you have heart burn over?

My reading of the proposed manual would still allow commanders to set the color ball cap...nothing has changed in that regard.

[Майор Хаткевич]

WOW......of all the weird stuff PAWG does.....the orange hat is what you have heart burn over?

My reading of the proposed manual would still allow commanders to set the color ball cap...nothing has changed in that regard.

Yea, granted but I didn't realize the orange hat is the only option within PAWG.

[Mitchell 1969]

But rather, help me come up with an argument that will go further than wing level in CAC. 

CAC has no business involving itself in uniform issues unless an echelon commander has asked for your input, and then
it would only be in regards to uniform issues specific to cadets.

No. It should quite rightly be in regards to issues specific to whatever said echelon commander has directed. Nothing says that a CAC can't be directed to look at non-cadet matters.

[Eclipse]

The first failure of a CAC is when they involve themselves in trying to change the senior program.

The second is when they start self-directing because their respective commanders aren't asking them to
consider any issues.

The third is when a CAC involves themselves in matters regarding uniforms items, recruiting or retention.

The forth is when commanders treat them as if the "A" stood for "Activity".

[Luis R. Ramos]

Nothing says that a CAC can't be directed to look at non-cadet matters.

I though that CAC meant Cadet Advisory Council.

Not Can Assign Council...

The name says it. By saying Cadet Advisory it is for issues related to cadets only!

Flyer

[LSThiker]

The first failure of a CAC is when they involve themselves in trying to change the senior program.

That depends.  If it is a change to the CP professional development, then getting the input from cadets may be beneficial.  Cadets may not be getting the proper cadet development that they need or want from the seniors that are supposed to be training them.  Getting input on how to adjust the cadet-senior relations throughout the wing from cadets is important.

Now matters regarding finance, logistics, flying, sure. 

The second is when they start self-directing because their respective commanders aren't asking them to
consider any issues.

This is not necessarily a failure of the CAC.  It is a failure of the commanders and the CP officers.

The third is when a CAC involves themselves in matters regarding uniforms items, recruiting or retention.

Actually, regarding recruiting and/or retention, the CAC may be a perfect venue.  Who better to understand problems with recruiting and retention of cadets than cadets themselves.  If the problem of retention is simply because the cadets are no longer interested in what the state is providing them, I would definitely say that is a cadet related issue that can be addressed by the CAC to the wing commander.

The forth is when commanders treat them as if the "A" stood for "Activity".

Again, not a failure of the CAC, but rather a failure of the command and CP officers for assigning them these tasks.  However, that being said, the planning of a cadet activity should always include cadets, especially when considering what activities the wing should host in the future.

[JeffDG]

Nothing says that a CAC can't be directed to look at non-cadet matters.

I though that CAC meant Cadet Advisory Council.

Not Can Assign Council...

The name says it. By saying Cadet Advisory it is for issues related to cadets only!

Flyer

Can just as easily be considered an Advisory Council comprised of Cadets, in which case, the Commander would be free to seek their advice on any issue.

[sarmed1]

Plus I will bet a safety vest is more effective for visibility. Not only because of the reflective material but because it is larger than a measly hat with no reflective strips.

Flyer

On the/from the ground you are correct, but I was shown pictures taken by someone in PAWG from an aircraft; pic 1 was GT with PAWG ornage hats on and orange vests, 2nd was BDU hat and orange vest, much more visable with the orange hat vs not.

Even without pack/LBE covering, most aerial visability is only a small amount over the shoulders (unless you have the back drapped on topof a pack)

not saying this is an argument for (I hate the thing personally) just it really is more visable from the air

mk

[Luis R. Ramos]

Can just as easily be considered as an Advisory Council composed of cadets?

I think that is as contradictory as stating parking in driveways and drive in parkways.



But what can I say? I am not a native English speaker!



Flyer

[brent.teal]

I hate these things too.  Whats even funnier is that we are required to remove the button on top of the orange baseball cap for safety purposes. 

[a2capt]

Whats even funnier is that we are required to remove the button on top of the orange baseball cap for safety purposes.

Is that actually in writing someplace?

[RMW14]

I am not sure where the previous poster is from in PA but I don't think that it is required to remove the little knob thingy on the top. It maybe required or recommended at his/her unit.

I, personally, remove the little knob thing on all my hats because that little thing hurts if it gets hit by something. I actually started removing them before I joined CAP as a cadet.

[brent.teal]

Well, perhaps I misunderstood but they made it sound like it was a wing thing.  Could be one of those things that some people rib you for if they see it.

[Eclipse]

PAWG's supp also requires Left Handed Smoke Benders as team equipment...

[Panache]

Whats even funnier is that we are required to remove the button on top of the orange baseball cap for safety purposes.

Is that actually in writing someplace?

No, it's most certainly not in writing, nor is it "required."  It's just one of those unwritten things everybody does that gets passed along verbally, but it's definitely not mandatory.

I was told that the reason we remove the little knob-thingee is because if you're wearing your orange cap in a plane, and you're also wearing a headset, the top strap of the headset presses against the knob which, in turn, digs into the top of your skull. 

[Mitchell 1969]

The first failure of a CAC is when they involve themselves in trying to change the senior program.

The second is when they start self-directing because their respective commanders aren't asking them to
consider any issues.

The third is when a CAC involves themselves in matters regarding uniforms items, recruiting or retention.

The forth is when commanders treat them as if the "A" stood for "Activity".

Failure? Really? I did every one of those things on Cadet Advisory Councils. They have me a white ribbon with a gold star on it. Do they usually give those for failures?

(Maybe the commanders didn't ask us to do much. But the advisors appointed by the commanders seemed to be on top of things and seemed to like the results).