Sticky Situation

[inactive123]

    Hello,
as the newly appointed ES NCO for my squadron, I have ran into a situation. Being the ES NCO, I wanted to see where the cadets where in GTM training. So, on eservices I noticed that my friend, a C/Amn, was a GTM3 trainee. I found this to odd, as my squadron hasn't offered the complete F&P training. My friend is really nice, and I know he couldn't tell a lie of such that could have been mistakenly approved. So I then check out 4 more cadets listed as GTM3 trainee, that are new to training. I am pretty sure that they haven't completed some the training. I then check out the approval dates for when the cadets "completed" the training. They were all put in for Nov 7, 2013, our last meeting. At that meeting, my DCC, an evaluator, seemed in a rush and tried to complete all F&P training in one night. We only got like 4 tasks completed via PowerPoint, and the cadet was not even asked questions as review. A few months ago we had did a presentation on individual equipment, but none of the cadets had their's to get signed off.
      So I figured the DCC and the ES officer had signed off the requirements that the cadets haven't done so they could get on to advanced training. I just can't believe it. I respect the officers, a Major and Captain. I just don't know what to do, as those officers are in my chain of command. I belong to a small squadron, with 20 cadets, only 13 are active, so I know when stuff is happening. Could someone please help on what to do in this situation?

Thanks

[Eclipse]

Respectfully point out that tasking requires the demonstration of skills not simply siting in a class.

Doing it improperly puts the cadets, the organization, and most importantly, those they would potentially help, at significant risk.

Pencil whipping members is a good way to lose your SET privileges when it becomes apparent what is going on.

[SARDOC]

I know that it's not that unusual to see a C/Amn with GTM1.  Our Wing hosts a Ground Search and Rescue College every year using the state curriculum which includes a written test.  However, if a CAP member fails the written exam they've still met all of the other demonstrable requirements for GTM3. 

If you suspect something was done inappropriately ask them how they accomplished their rating.

[Storm Chaser]

I agree with Eclipse 100%. CAPR 60-3 states the following:

Familiarization and preparatory training is the minimum set of tasks that the member must master prior to acting as a supervised trainee on practice or actual missions. These tasks represent those skills that will keep the member safe and allow the member to function under supervision without jeopardizing the mission. This requirement avoids placing personnel not ready to perform certain jobs or those who work for them at risk. (emphasis mine)

All personnel will conduct training using the standardized National task guides. Evaluators must ensure that trainees satisfactorily pass all requirements of a task contained in the task guide before certifying completion for the SQTR. (emphasis mine)

As Eclipse advised, make sure that you address this respectfully and with tact. You can point to the regulation, as you express your concerns. With an honest discussion, he may come to the realization that ensuring that the standards are met before signing off tasks is in the best interest of the member and the organization.

[rustyjeeper]

Respectfully point out that tasking requires the demonstration of skills not simply siting in a class.

Doing it improperly puts the cadets, the organization, and most importantly, those they would potentially help, at significant risk.

Pencil whipping members is a good way to lose your SET privileges when it becomes apparent what is going on.

What seems here to be of critical importance is that "trainee" is the only status these cadets have....
Perhaps what has been given to these cadets is just commander's approval to be a trainee as a GT3
Unless I misread/misunderstood the previous postings no on has been approved in the specialty as of yet.

[inactive123]

Respectfully point out that tasking requires the demonstration of skills not simply siting in a class.

Doing it improperly puts the cadets, the organization, and most importantly, those they would potentially help, at significant risk.

Pencil whipping members is a good way to lose your SET privileges when it becomes apparent what is going on.

What seems here to be of critical importance is that "trainee" is the only status these cadets have....
Perhaps what has been given to these cadets is just commander's approval to be a trainee as a GT3
Unless I misread/misunderstood the previous postings no on has been approved in the specialty as of yet.

Yes... but to get CC approval for trainee status you must complete F&P (the 11 requirements). Was there some sort of change because I received a PM on a similar misunderstanding? Also I asked my friend at school today if he had a GT pack. He responded that he had 3 MREs. I asked the question again, and he said he "sorta" had a pack. Also, at my old squadron, my evaluators asked questions after a power point from the Green monster book ,had me demonstrate the skill, or inspect my gear. At my new squadron, the Cadets got signed off on "Use a Compass" when during that lesson, all we had did was look at maps from some place in South Korea. We didn't even tough a compass.

   Is there some sort of national standard when it comes ES sign-offs, or could say since Capt Curry showed a powerpoint presentation from NESA that now counts?

[a2capt]

They could have a pack that is available to everyone. Though that would meet the spirit of the task requirement. It does not say that you have to actually own it.

There's more to every story, but what I read here doesn't even pass the sniff test to even give me reason to believe actual training and separate evaluation took place. Glad it's not my unit or group. I'd be un-thrilled to say the least.

[Eclipse]

Is there some sort of national standard when it comes ES sign-offs, or could say since Capt Curry showed a powerpoint presentation from NESA that now counts?

Of course there's a national standard, read 60-3.  The basic rule is you must personally demonstrate each task and pass all the points.

[C/Cool]

Greetings,
Where would I find if my cadets are GTM or what not?

Thanks

[Eclipse]

If you have the proper rights, there are reports that can be run in OPS Quals against any respective qualification.

[Storm Chaser]

Under Ops Quals > Reports, you can select 'Specific Qualification Listing' and add the parameters for your report or you can select 'Resource Report', which will give you every qualification, achievement and ES award in your unit.

[inactive123]

Update on my situation( I'll make this brief)...

So after taking the advice from some of you I talked to my DCC after a meeting privately. At first I addressed the situation to him, and he checked eServices. He then said that F&P isn't a thing to be really evaluated. Then after ten minutes of me explaining to him our national standard and how I didn't sse any o the cadets being evaluated and him changing the story, he finally came out saying that each cadet was evaluated individually by him and another ES evaluator.
  Flash forward to next week. I asked a cadet at school if he was evaluated on F&P yet. I get the short response of no. So I then question a few other cadets who were signed of if they were evaluated. All say no.

  Later, at the meeting I was going for a PRB for C/TSgt. My board consisted of my C/CC (C/1lt) and previous C/CC (a former C/Maj, now Flt officer)that is now at college and hasn't been to a meeting in like 4 months but was at last meeting. I was first addressed by the Flight Officer on what I did. She accused me of questioning an officer an me saying he doesn't have the training. I knew from the begining that he had evaluator qual. I said that there must have been a misunderstanding and reassured her that it won't happen again. On feeding back section, my C/CC wrote to only question an officer when necessary. So question an officer on if there was a mistake on the ES evaluations, which could potentially cause risk of life to the cadets and the surrounding people,is not necessary?

On the car ride home I explained to my mom on everything that has happened. What happened to integrity? I guess that a Major in CAP is aloud to bend the truth to a 14 y/o C/NCO. Anyways I was very disappointed with the squadron. I was later received this from the flight officer.

"I always had a policy that I didn't correct without providing further explanation later and I don't plan on changing that. I think it's important that first you have time to think about what it is you need to correct and how to correct it, but I also think it's important you understand why.

A lot of the time a cadet spends within the squadron and every squadron has it's own "normal." However, the behavior and habits you form in the squadron will be what you take with you outside the squadron. Senior members outside Burke aren't as welcoming when it comes to cadets asking questions. A lot of senior members demand respect and when a cadet "questions their authority" they tend to have an adverse reaction. They don't care about your intent. Questioning the way something is done or asking about if its in line with the regulations is often taken the wrong way (been there, done that). If you need to know how to do something ask away!  I don't want to see you getting yourself in trouble because you didn't know. Worry about your job, not others. Trust me, it's a lot less overwhelming and way more fun!

Just so you know, Burke doesn't write cadets off as good or bad. Cadets learn by making mistakes, it's normal. If you didn't make a mistake I'd be concerned."

How would she know what really happened when my conversation with my DCC was private?

The squadron is great( for the most part), but when this happens and you are liteerally stuck playing duck, duck goose and other game because a C/2lt makes it an activity, you get kind of sick o it. Not the CAP I joined.
Anyhow... anybody got reccomendations on squadrons in Northern VA? 


 

[TexasCadet]

I hope you said it in a respectful way.

[Eclipse]

You've made your point known, any integrity or ethical issues are now on him.

Let it go and move on.

[inactive123]

You've made your point known, any integrity or ethical issues are now on him.

Let it go and move on.

My bad. I accidently  posted the short version when I was just beginning.

[inactive123]

I hope you said it in a respectful way.

I was very respectful. I have had respect for older people instilled in me from childhood and my parents.

[Eclipse]

You've made your point known, any integrity or ethical issues are now on him.

Let it go and move on.

My bad. I accidently  posted the short version when I was just beginning.

I see.  Well, still pretty much the course any way.  If it becomes some sort of "don't' question authority" nonsense,
you might do well to get your parents involved.

There's nothing wrong with respectfully questioning authority, as long as you handle it properly and
through the correct procedures, including if there are any ramifications going forward.

[Eclipse]

The squadron is great( for the most part), but when this happens and you are liteerally stuck playing duck, duck goose and other game because a C/2lt makes it an activity, you get kind of sick o it. Not the CAP I joined.

Just saw this.   Ridiculous.  If that really occurred, conversations need to be had above your pay grade.

[inactive123]

The squadron is great( for the most part), but when this happens and you are liteerally stuck playing duck, duck goose and other game because a C/2lt makes it an activity, you get kind of sick o it. Not the CAP I joined.

Just saw this.   Ridiculous.  If that really occurred, conversations need to be had above your pay grade.

I saw this in another post and thought I can really relate to this. Every AE night, after we learn about Aviation in different wars, we play a game were the two teams and you run around pegging balls at each other and try to hit targets.

[a2capt]

Every AE night, after we learn about Aviation in different wars, we play a game were the two teams and you run around pegging balls at each other and try to hit targets.

Excellent utilization of flight time.  There's only so many hours available in the schedule, you've got to work to make that 56 days count. Why complicate matters with useless 'games'.

Sounds like "After AE" could really still be more AE, if not something else that might help the cadets actually progress.

"because we've always done (it like) this" doesn't make it right. Evolution is real. Resistance is futile. Rise up in the ranks, take on the responsibility, do it right, be consistent, and pretty soon those others will age out, you'll set the tone for your subordinates for when they take the leadership roles and you move onto mentorship, and onward.

[PA Guy]

The squadron is great( for the most part), but when this happens and you are liteerally stuck playing duck, duck goose and other game because a C/2lt makes it an activity, you get kind of sick o it. Not the CAP I joined.

Just saw this.   Ridiculous.  If that really occurred, conversations need to be had above your pay grade.

I saw this in another post and thought I can really relate to this. Every AE night, after we learn about Aviation in different wars, we play a game were the two teams and you run around pegging balls at each other and try to hit targets.

Bolding mine.

Don't you study any AE that is not military related and play the same game over and over?

[inactive123]

The squadron is great( for the most part), but when this happens and you are liteerally stuck playing duck, duck goose and other game because a C/2lt makes it an activity, you get kind of sick o it. Not the CAP I joined.

Just saw this.   Ridiculous.  If that really occurred, conversations need to be had above your pay grade.

I saw this in another post and thought I can really relate to this. Every AE night, after we learn about Aviation in different wars, we play a game were the two teams and you run around pegging balls at each other and try to hit targets.

Bolding mine.

Don't you study any AE that is not military related and play the same game over and over?

That pretty much sums up AE at my squadron for the past 4 months except for last week were we had a Cadet who is at Embry Riddle talk to us.

Could we try to stay on topic?

[Tim Day]

That is a sticky situation. You are in a position where you (according to what you've presented here) have done what you can for now. You now have to decide, with your parents, not only whether you are going to stay with the unit or whether you are going to move on. If you do decide to move on, make sure you visit a few other units and talk with the cadets there.

I've worked with quality senior members and cadets from your squadron (for example, at the Group 3 ES Bivouac) so the situation you describe sounds at odds to the standards your squadron CC would expect. I believe our Group ES officer is originally from your squadron and from what I've witnessed he upholds the appropriate standards. Your experience may not be reflective of the overall quality of your squadron.

[TexasCadet]

Cadetcookies,

I was confused by your original post since it did not have all the details. I am sorry.

[Eclipse]

One of the many reasons we need to be hammering "calendar" and more importantly "time management"
with squadron CC's. 

The number of contact hours every year is so small, and many are squandering on nonsense like this.

Then we wonder why people quit.

Could we try to stay on topic?

Actually, you could make the argument that a unit CC who believes that this kind of thing is an acceptable activity on
a meeting night is likely "less informed" about a lot of other parts of CAP as well.

Again, for those scoring at home.

CAP members do not need to "blow off steam".  Most are there as an outlet from their regular lives and are looking
for a meaningful way to use a couple of hours, not simply a "different place to burn a little more of my life".

This is another inappropriate cast-off from our military linage and connection, CAP members aren't hunkered in a foxhole
or (more aptly today) sequestered at a UAV console all day and "just looking for a place to let loose a bit before getting
back to it".  They want to actually do something, that's why they are there instead of riding their couch groove.

And that "something" doesn't mean just checking boxes or running out the clock.

Unit CC's take heed, if you aren't cramming your meetings with activities and training that make a member
feel as if their time was worth at least the gas to get to the meeting, soon you won't have to be concerned
with the issue at all.

[Tim Day]

I agree with you, Eclipse. At a minimum, units need weekly activity schedules that treat their members' time as if it were a valuable resource, honoring our core value of respect. From personal conversations in the last year I believe the leadership at this particular unit would also agree, and maybe we'll hear from them since their unit name was disclosed.

I am hoping what C/SSgt Cadetcookies experienced was a temporary glitch in the program or a misunderstanding and not symptomatic of a sister squadron which I thought was doing pretty well.

[jeders]

Unit CC's take heed, if you aren't cramming your meetings with activities and training that make a member
feel as if their time was worth at least the gas to get to the meeting, soon you won't have to be concerned
with the issue at all.

If only this were the case. It absolutely should be and evaluating a unit's calendar should be a part of any inspection, but right now there are too many commanders who waste too much of our member's time.