Night Vision.

[syotos]

Fist i want to say a few things i have read some of the other forums on this topic and i want to set some guidelines. I am active duty air force and use nvg's/ thermals on a somewhat consistent basis. So i have an idea of the pros and cons of the technology i am aware of the regulations CAPR- 60-1 and 60-3.  i was recently asked by my commander on my opinions on using these devices in a SAR mission.

Hears the question using the devices for a
- stationary ground members
- passengers in a ground vehicle
- or mission scanners/observers.

Now assuming we have the money do you think in any possible way it could be useful.

[sarmed1]

vehicle passengers I think not so usefull....
Ground staionary somewhat usefull....depending on the search type, and I think that thermal would be an even better option than standard NVG
MS and OBS I think equally as usefull depending on the search type, NVG prefered....

Problem: cost prohibitive for purchase and likely for repair.  If available as mil suprlus a better option.  The next problem comes in is availability.  A/C are easy, 2 sets per A/C.  ground units depending on the size of the wing and the number of units, I dont know if there would be enough to go around to make them a force/ability multiplier (ie they will never be in the right place at the right time)

mk

[RogueLeader]

In Wyoming, we have two aircraft that are equipped with FLIR systems. So no real issues there.

[NIN]

Pax in a ground vehicle might be flaky just due to the lack of NVG compatible lighting and such.

[RogueLeader]

What about for dismounted use?

I know from my army days that they take some getting used to, but I don't think it is something that couldn't be overcome.

[Al Sayre]

Prices for NVG have come down considerably, Sportsmans guide has them for around $100.

Here:http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/search/eSearch.aspx?SearchTerms=Night%20Vision&eMode=

[Eclipse]

Now assuming we have the money do you think in any possible way it could be useful.

Yes, they have the potential to be useful, but are cost prohibitive and have a low ROI.

Both noise pollution or the inverse - the inability to provide enough IR illumination are going to severely limit
the usefulness of the kinds of devices CAP could reach for, depending on which technology we're talking.

[RogueLeader]

Now assuming we have the money do you think in any possible way it could be useful.

Yes, they have the potential to be useful, but are cost prohibitive and have a low ROI.

Both noise pollution or the inverse - the inability to provide enough IR illumination are going to severely limit
the usefulness of the kinds of devices CAP could reach for, depending on which technology we're talking.

Fortunately, there are suitable IR chemlights, and other beacons.  In the depths of Wyoming, I'm not too worried about excess lights.

[sardak]

In Wyoming, we have two aircraft that are equipped with FLIR systems. So no real issues there.

Handheld or built-in like the unit in North Dakota?

The OP, from Wyoming, asked about NVG which is signficantly different than FLIR systems on aircraft. Are the questions regarding use of NVG because FLIR is now being used in Wyoming? What is the FLIR being used for, SAR, DR, fire patrol, etc.?

Mike

[Eclipse]

^ A good point, actually it encapsulates the situation.

NVGs have nearly zero use in CAP.

Why?  Because the whole point of NVGs is seeing from concealment - not something you generally do in SAR.

If it requires an IR illuminator to be seen, just use a flashlight and your eyes.

FLIR?  Now that's a different conversation.

[Storm Chaser]

NVGs have nearly zero use in CAP.

Why?  Because the whole point of NVGs is seeing from concealment - not something you generally do in SAR.

If it requires an IR illuminator to be seen, just use a flashlight and your eyes.

Really? How did you came to that conclusion? I won't argue the use of NVGs in CAP. But I've used NVGs in the military and, while some may use it to see from concealment, many just use it to see better at night.

A flashlight will either not illuminate the whole area effectively or compromises your night vision. Again, I'm not arguing in favor of NVG use. I see some limitations as it is (cost, training, the use of non-compatible lights such as flashlights, etc.). I just don't agree with the generalization of your statement.

[RogueLeader]

In Wyoming, we have two aircraft that are equipped with FLIR systems. So no real issues there.

Handheld or built-in like the unit in North Dakota?

The OP, from Wyoming, asked about NVG which is signficantly different than FLIR systems on aircraft. Are the questions regarding use of NVG because FLIR is now being used in Wyoming? What is the FLIR being used for, SAR, DR, fire patrol, etc.?

Mike

They are built in.  Primary use is SAR.  We get to thank the Wyoming Office of Homeland Security for the two systems.

NVGs have nearly zero use in CAP.

Why?  Because the whole point of NVGs is seeing from concealment - not something you generally do in SAR.

If it requires an IR illuminator to be seen, just use a flashlight and your eyes.

Not always, and that they can give you a better depth of visual range in the dark (ie farther than a flashlight) that easily enhances your chances of success.  When there is a need to break out white lights, fine that's what you do.

One of the primary goals of this is to be able to work with those aircraft with the FLIR systems.  Just because it is not done currently; why should it not be? 

There are the obvious concerns about safety procedures, any special limitations that may need to be considered.  Whats the harm in being forward thinking about how we could expand our capabilities?  Please note that this is just in the exploratory stage.

[Eclipse]

There are the obvious concerns about safety procedures, any special limitations that may need to be considered.  Whats the harm in being forward thinking about how we could expand our capabilities?  Please note that this is just in the exploratory stage.

There's nothing wrong with exploring anything and everything, but as said, NVGs are special-case / special use and expensive.

Absent operations which encompass all the the variables, they won't be much use, or may only be useful in certain areas for certain missions.

The last thing we need is another ARCHER, but at least NVGs wouldn't require special aircraft.

[NIN]

^ A good point, actually it encapsulates the situation.

NVGs have nearly zero use in CAP.

Why?  Because the whole point of NVGs is seeing from concealment - not something you generally do in SAR.

If it requires an IR illuminator to be seen, just use a flashlight and your eyes.

FLIR?  Now that's a different conversation.

Oh, come on Bob. You know that's not the case.

The whole point of NVGs is light amplification.  The ability to see (aided) what the naked eye cannot see in the dark unaided.  It has zip to do with concealment.

And NVGs don't require an "IR illuminator" to see except when the illumination level is low or non-existent (ie. the inside of a tent).

AN/PVS-5 NVGs had a little LED illuminator built in just about where the bridge of your nose would be for those circumstances.

I wore goggles quite a bit, I probably have 100 hrs of flight time under NVGs.  When putting a helicopter into a confined area at night (aided) or hooking an external load under goggles, you used the normal "night illumination" levels.  Occasionally we'd actually use the pink light, but that thing was more trouble than it was worth usually.

Matter of fact: US Military night operations for a long time (dunno if it is that way now due to the higher tech NVGs) were scheduled based on the "illumination level" (moon, etc) for a particular night.  We very, very seldom flew when the illum was below a certain percentage, because the -5 goggles were so crummy at really, really low illum levels.

The PVS-6 googles were a pretty "night and day" (pardon the pun) difference over the PVS-5 goggles.

[Eclipse]

^ At what distance?

[NIN]

^ At what distance?

All distances.

Sling loads are conducted (for the CE / FE) at 5-8 ft from the load.  Confined areas can be 2-3 times bigger than the aircraft going into it.  Lemme tell you about spotting a UH-60 once while we were doing pinnacle approaches and I called "Traffic, 2 o'clock, approximately 2 miles.." and the pilot said "Two miles? Try that again, chief!"  I looked under the cutaways and sure enough, that UH-60 was probably more like 5 miles away.. LOL.

Hell, if NVGs were solely about "concealment" then  the gigantic IR searchlight we had on the helicopter (the "pink light") was kind of a dead giveaway.  Never mind the hot exhaust, the lights in the cabin/cockpit, and oh, yeah, the fact that you can hear the darn thing coming from like 7000 miles away.

"What is making that racket, Comrade?"

"I don't know, but it is well concealed!"

[Eclipse]

^ At what distance?

All distances.

Sling loads are conducted (for the CE / FE) at 5-8 ft from the load.  Confined areas can be 2-3 times bigger than the aircraft going into it.  Lemme tell you about spotting a UH-60 once while we were doing pinnacle approaches and I called "Traffic, 2 o'clock, approximately 2 miles.." and the pilot said "Two miles? Try that again, chief!"  I looked under the cutaways and sure enough, that UH-60 was probably more like 5 miles away.. LOL.

Hell, if NVGs were solely about "concealment" then  the gigantic IR searchlight we had on the helicopter (the "pink light") was kind of a dead giveaway.  Never mind the hot exhaust, the lights in the cabin/cockpit, and oh, yeah, the fact that you can hear the darn thing coming from like 7000 miles away.

"What is making that racket, Comrade?"

"I don't know, but it is well concealed!"

OK - but you've go an IR Searchlight.  That's not going to fly anytime soon on a CAP plane.

We're looking for stuff more then 8 feet away, and things without big flashy marker lights, etc. from far distance.

Hey, smoke 'em if you got'em, and if Raytheon is reading this, we'd like about 100 pairs, please.

[cap235629]

Arkansas Wing has 2 handheld Thermal Imaging cameras that we use airborne, mobile and on the ground.  We even developed a scanner training outline for airborne use through the photo window.  This capability was used most recently on Monday the 20th in a night time search for a downed aircraft in Madison County Arkansas......

[RiverAux]

Are any of the high-speed SAR teams that go on-rope to get out of their Hummers using NVGs for ground SAR?

There are useful aerial applications for thermal imaging, but I'm a little skeptical about their use for ground SAR. 

[Jaison009]

I was wondering if they were deployed. Bill were your guys over in Leflore Co or did OK Wing handle the search exclusively?

Arkansas Wing has 2 handheld Thermal Imaging cameras that we use airborne, mobile and on the ground.  We even developed a scanner training outline for airborne use through the photo window.  This capability was used most recently on Monday the 20th in a night time search for a downed aircraft in Madison County Arkansas......