Cadet PT Mandatory ??

[PilotMan]

Hi all.

Had a situation where a DCC ordered a cadet to run during PT.  Cadet refused and DCC threatened him with insubordination. 

SO.........  Is this correct?  Seems a bit overkill in my opinion. 

Thanks All and God Bless CAP!! :clap:

[Garibaldi]

Hi all.

Had a situation where a DCC ordered a cadet to run during PT.  Cadet refused and DCC threatened him with insubordination. 

SO.........  Is this correct?  Seems a bit overkill in my opinion. 

Thanks All and God Bless CAP!! :clap:

DCC...for that matter, any SM, cannot "order" cadets or even other seniors to do anything.

Why did the DCC deem it necessary to "order" the cadet to run anyway? Was it required as part of PT? Were the other cadets running and he was standing around?

Insubordination in a volunteer organization is a dicey charge.

Overkill? Maybe. Hazing? Need more info. Correct? No. Chain of command runs both ways.

[Eclipse]

It doesn't have to be overkill or hazing if it was done for punitive reasons - that's against a bright line reg.

However if the run was a unit activity and the cadet refused without justification, or in a disrespectful way,
he may well be deserving of disciplinary action.

[68w20]

Short answer, yes, it's mandatory.  If he wants to pass the CPFT and promote then he needs to attempt all portions of the test and pass at least one of the "runs" and two other events.  It's something else entirely if he has a doctor's note exempting him or simply opts out of the PT test. 

Based on what you saw, what constitutes an "order"?

[Ned]

DCC...for that matter, any SM, cannot "order" cadets or even other seniors to do anything.

Seriously?  Why do you say that?

Don't cadets swear to "obey my officers" as part of the Cadet Oath?

It doesn't make much sense to swear to obey officers if the officers cannot issue orders that require obedience.

What am I missing?

[Brad]

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

[coudano]

Is this part of the cadet physical fitness test?

Part of warm-up for it?
Part of squadron PT training (other than the test?)

Generally speaking, my policy is that everyone participates.  Nobody gets to go sulk out in the corner.
Participate or go home.
That goes for everything, not just PT.

[PilotMan]

He didn't need PT as he had already had satisfied it for his next promotion.

Short answer, yes, it's mandatory.  If he wants to pass the CPFT and promote then he needs to attempt all portions of the test and pass at least one of the "runs" and two other events.  It's something else entirely if he has a doctor's note exempting him or simply opts out of the PT test. 

Based on what you saw, what constitutes an "order"?

[Майор Хаткевич]

He didn't need PT as he had already had satisfied it for his next promotion.

Short answer, yes, it's mandatory.  If he wants to pass the CPFT and promote then he needs to attempt all portions of the test and pass at least one of the "runs" and two other events.  It's something else entirely if he has a doctor's note exempting him or simply opts out of the PT test. 

Based on what you saw, what constitutes an "order"?

If the unit is doing PT, EVERYONE does it. Don't matter if he passed it a YEAR ago, and didn't bother to promote, or will this month.

[jimmydeanno]

In all the units that I've run, I've had to overcome the "I already passed my PT, I'm sitting this one out" attitude.  PT is on the schedule, so unless you broke your knee, you better be running.  Everyone could use more practice and it sets a better example to the inflight cadets. 

I don't care if you already passed the test.  If you're there, you participate in the scheduled events.  Period.  That's an order.

[PilotMan]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

[FlyTiger77]

He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Unless someone could show me a CAP regulation specifically prohibiting it, I would support the commander on this. As a squadron commander, I would run with the unit and I certainly didn't need it (for promotion, that is!).

[abdsp51]

Wow.  I have had cadets quit doing pt because of one thing or another but I have yet to have a cadet refuse to do pt for any reason.  Shoot at my last unit we met on Mon nights and I would have pt  that Mon morning and still be out doing PT with them that night. 

[68w20]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

I would still tend to side with the CDC on this, especially if the Cadet is in a staff position.  Part of our goal as Cadet Programs officers is to keep Cadets engaged while we have them.  Having one Cadet off on their own because they just don't wanna isn't conducive to that objective.  PT was on the schedule, and it's not unreasonable to expect him to participate actively in unit activities. 

[PilotMan]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

I would still tend to side with the CDC on this, especially if the Cadet is in a staff position.  Part of our goal as Cadet Programs officers is to keep Cadets engaged while we have them.  Having one Cadet off on their own because they just don't wanna isn't conducive to that objective.  PT was on the schedule, and it's not unreasonable to expect him to participate actively in unit activities.

Would tend to agree...... But to push the point till the cadet now leaves CAP?     Not conducive for CAP or the Cadet I say.  Noted maybe and brought up during his next promotion?

[68w20]

The cadet had satisfied his PT requirement for his next promotion already.   Maybe he was having a bad day, was tired, already had sports that day at school?  He was told however that because he was a senior cadet he should run to show a good example. 

Need more info. What do you mean by "refused to run?" Refused to run and chose to walk instead, or refused to run and participate in the PT at all?

Either way, it's simply a matter between the cadet and what the PT standards require as a time. In the latter instance though, it's far more certain that the cadet won't pass and so won't promote.

I would still tend to side with the CDC on this, especially if the Cadet is in a staff position.  Part of our goal as Cadet Programs officers is to keep Cadets engaged while we have them.  Having one Cadet off on their own because they just don't wanna isn't conducive to that objective.  PT was on the schedule, and it's not unreasonable to expect him to participate actively in unit activities.

Would tend to agree...... But to push the point till the cadet now leaves CAP?     Not conducive for CAP or the Cadet I say.  Noted maybe and brought up during his next promotion?

Did the Cadet say that he was going to leave CAP as a result of this? 

[jimmydeanno]

I love how threads like this go.

1) The seniors are so horrible, they accused my fellow cadet (in reality it's probably me) of insubordination because he didn't do the CPFT even though he already passed it.  Seniors can't do that!

- Actually they can, because they are in charge.

2) But the cadet was really tired.  And what if the moon was in retrograde!

more discussion

3) But the cadet is going to quit CAP because of it.

and the story just gets more and more exaggerated and more "facts" come to light, so that the OP can feel better about their OP when they get told how wrong they are about their position...

[a2capt]

Our stance is "PT is not a once a month, let alone once a week deal", you'll not improve or even possibly maintain your ability to pass those things as you get older and the requirements increase.

Lead by example, participate. If PT is on the schedule, you're doing it unless you're broken in some way that precludes the activity.

We've yet to have resistance when it's brought up that way, to the few that have tried the "I've already completed it for promotion".

[Майор Хаткевич]

If the cadet quits over this, then he's being a hotheaded teenager. Unless there is a legitimate reason not to, "I already have the credit" goes back to the check box mentality. Good on the CDC.

[PilotMan]

I love how threads like this go.

1) The seniors are so horrible, they accused my fellow cadet (in reality it's probably me) of insubordination because he didn't do the CPFT even though he already passed it.  Seniors can't do that!

- Actually they can, because they are in charge.

2) But the cadet was really tired.  And what if the moon was in retrograde!

more discussion

3) But the cadet is going to quit CAP because of it.

and the story just gets more and more exaggerated and more "facts" come to light, so that the OP can feel better about their OP when they get told how wrong they are about their position...

No worries.... Its not you :clap: 

The cadet program is to make good human beings.   If we treat them like step children and demand that they do things... we loose them.  What a silly thing to loose them over in my opinion.  Now.... the situation should be noted and brought up at a less volatile time.  Consideration of this issue during for advancement for instance. 

[PilotMan]

If the cadet quits over this, then he's being a hotheaded teenager. Unless there is a legitimate reason not to, "I already have the credit" goes back to the check box mentality. Good on the CDC.

Lost me a bit there.......

So a standoff going nose to nose is better than showing composure and working through issues?  We have the advantage as we have gone through puberty and don't have to deal with the hormones.  Acting like an adult in this situation would make a better DCC and eventually impress on that cadet that keeping his cool is always best.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The cadet was being lazy. He refused an order without good reason provided. What more is there to it?

[Garibaldi]

DCC...for that matter, any SM, cannot "order" cadets or even other seniors to do anything.

Seriously?  Why do you say that?

Don't cadets swear to "obey my officers" as part of the Cadet Oath?

It doesn't make much sense to swear to obey officers if the officers cannot issue orders that require obedience.

What am I missing?

Standing corrected.

This example was a little hazy to me. What I IMAGINED happened was that the DCC saw a cadet malingering and puffed up his feathers and tried to enforce his authority, of which he has some. What ACTUALLY happened was quite different. HOWEVER, having said that, I stand by my statement that the CoC goes both ways. DCC shouldn't have shortcut the situation and should have passed the order down his chain and let the cadet staff deal with it.

As far as why the cadet felt he didn't need to participate, that's immaterial. He knows what the schedule for the meeting is, what is expected of him, and he flat out refused to participate. Hormones, attitude, whatever. He was given an opportunity, couched as an order or strongly worded suggestion, refused to do as he was told, and was informed of the consequences of his action or inaction.

Ned is correct, and I was not. Cadets are in the program to develop themselves into "dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders", if that's even part of the CP mission statement anymore. Cadets who buck the system have no place in the program, if they don't learn that there are peers who are in "control" of them for a limited span of hours in a week. Lack of respect for a senior officer, much less an adult, is something I addressed in another unrelated topic. As an example, I was the very model of a bad cadet. I progressed very slowly, getting 4 stripes in 5 years. I was insubordinate, both to my superior cadets and to some seniors, disrespectful to the point where the cadet staff would try to...well, if what happened then happened now, it wouldn't be pretty. Yet, I both learned and did not learn. I learned that every action has a consequence, but didn't learn to apply that lesson to my life as a cadet; hence, extreme violations of CPP if it had existed back then. I never did shape up as a cadet, and realistically shouldn't have been allowed to continue in the program as long as I did. This cadet either will learn, or he will not, in which case he needs to figure out if he really should stay, or join another organization where his actions will be the rule rather than the exception.

[Eclipse]

When this become a "stand off"?  Who lost their composure?  Both assume facts not in evidence.

Clearly you have an opinion and there's apparently more to this story then the information provided.

Honestly, why do people make obscure posts and then trickle information as it becomes necessary to make their argument or point. Jimmydeano is right.

It's PT night - everybody runs. Review the cadet oath and put on your PT gear.

[MIKE]

When I was a CDC one of my goals was that we would stop having every cadet do the CPFT every month if they needed it or not... and instead have the cadets who have met their CPFT for their next achievement do some other cadet led fitness activity, usually sports.  This got us away from wasting time testing cadets who didn't need it, but emphasized the fitness goals of the program.

IIRC, CAPR 52-16 used to suggest devoting a whole meeting a month to fitness activities... Not sure I agree with that, but I was exempt for all of my cadet daze... I could be biased.

[Elioron]

When I was a CDC one of my goals was that we would stop having every cadet do the CPFT every month if they needed it or not... and instead have the cadets who have met their CPFT for their next achievement do some other cadet led fitness activity, usually sports.  This got us away from wasting time testing cadets who didn't need it, but emphasized the fitness goals of the program.

IIRC, CAPR 52-16 used to suggest devoting a whole meeting a month to fitness activities... Not sure I agree with that, but I was exempt for all of my cadet daze... I could be biased.

We typically devote one meeting to PT.  The first half is testing and the second half is either games or exercises as a squadron.  All cadets participate in the testing to encourage their peers and monitor their own progress.  Passing is not the actual goal - doing their best is the goal.  Ideally their best is enough to pass but even if it isn't they are pushing themselves to improve.

The main exception is on the mile run when everyone is running together.  We often have cadets that have passed or already finished run with the slower cadets to help encourage them.

[ytaylor01]

For your PT nights, do you have the SM's administer the testing (timing, writing down results, etc.) or do you have the Cadets?  I have read the regulations many times but there seems to be an interpretion difference amongst us SM's.  Thanks much,

[SarDragon]

For your PT nights, do you have the SM's administer the testing (timing, writing down results, etc.) or do you have the Cadets?  I have read the regulations many times but there seems to be an interpretion difference amongst us SM's.  Thanks much,

All emphasis is mine.

From 20-1:
Leadership Education Officer (Applicable to Cadet and Composite Squadrons Only)
Responsible for leadership laboratory and physical fitness training of CAP cadets to include:
Proper wear of the CAP uniform.
Customs and courtesies of the service.
Leadership techniques and activities.
Physical fitness.
Squadron drill team.
The leadership officer should be familiar with CAPM 39-1, CAPR 52-16, CAPP 216 and other CAP directives in the 52 and 160 series and particularly with the cadet leadership textbooks located on the national cadet programs website.

From 50-16:
5-8. Protocols for the Cadet Physical Fitness Test. The Cadet Program's physical fitness element is evaluated through a performance test based on the President's Challenge program. Cadets assigned to Physical Fitness Categories I, II and III (see paragraph 2-12) must pass the Cadet Physical Fitness Test (CPFT), as required by their category, in order to complete each achievement and milestone award.
a. Events. The CPFT consists of four events; the sit and reach, curl-ups, push-ups, and a mile run or a shuttle run. For test standards and instructions on how to perform each event, see CAPP 52-18.
b. Test Administration. CAP-USAF members, CAP senior members (who need not be assigned as test control officers) and physical education teachers are authorized to administer the CPFT. Cadets may assist in proctoring the CPFT under the supervision of the test administrator.

Edited to add:

From CAPP52-18:

Test Administrators. The CPFT must be administered by a senior member, who need not be the unit's
testing officer; a CAP-USAF member; or with the unit commander's approval, a physical education teacher.
Cadets may assist in proctoring the CPFT under the supervision of the test administrator.

[coudano]

At my squadron, the cadets (first sergeant) "assist" to the tune of about 99% of doing everything related to the CPFT.
A senior member (leadership officer) is present during the administration and actively paying attention to make sure nobody is sluffing, or pencil-whipping, and that risk levels stay within tolerance (safety).  Multiple events are usually going on simultaneously, and cadets (or the partner who counted reps for them) usually write their own scores.

Violating the letter of the law?

Still have to have a senior member enter the data, using the multi-entry pass/fail form in e-services.  I'd have a cadet do this too, but you have to do something along the lines of logging in as a senior member with permissions and then letting a cadet use the credentials to enter the data.  That just hasn't been practical so far, so we don't do that, the leadership officer enters the data for now.

Check out this thing for scoring lots of people at once (and auto-emailing them their results).
http://archive.cadetstuff.org/pt/
It doesn't put the data in e-services but it gives you a list of people who passed, that you can cut/paste into the multi-entry app.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There's a pt chart in cadet reports on eservices I always print day of.