USAF Style Versus CAP Distinctive

[lordmonar]

Lord M:

I think option 2 has a shot.

The present standards represent the basic training entry standards, and are not adjusted for body fat.

Using the approved USAF body fay computation rules, which are NOT hard to administer, and calculating in fudge factor of approximately 10 percent, I think a LOT of us seasoned fellows would stack up closer to USAF standards than by using the screening weight only.

The question is...what about those great CAP officers that are WAY out of USAF standards?

[lordmonar]

That there are FAR too many uniforms I heartily agree with you. Clearly I prefer the USAF uniform. But I also do not think we should preclude those who do no meet standards from participating. This is the reason we should have the USAF block of uniforms for all who meet WHATEVER the standards are for that and the Corporate block equivalents for all those who do not meet the standards.  It should be a one for one match. Blues/TPU, BDU/BBDU, Flight suit/Blue Filght suit. There are enough similarities in these that it is clear that the organization is the same while satisfying USAF in the wearing of the USAF uniforms.

So status quo.  Live with the problem that we look like a bunch of fools (this is an exaggeration) to our primary customers.

WITHOUT USAF THERE IS NO CAP. You can't tell USAF to "stuff it" and think that CAP will survive. It will be killed faster than an isurgent in Iraq.

Highly disagree with with our here...but this is not the right thread for that.

The bad blood is not a USAF problem with CAP but is the result of the actions of certain individuals IN CAP over the years.

Agree with you here.

IF we professionalize the appearance as well as the actions and USAF see us enforcing regulations instead of finding ways around them, the relationship will repair itself. For this to happen, CAP has to be the one to take the first steps.

Agree...but you are attempting to solve a different problem than I am.

By leaving the USAF uniforms behind in favor of the corporate ones gives the impression that 1. we dont want to look like USAF anymore and 2. we cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF policy for that uniform.

Not if you approach the USAF in the right way.  If you go to them and say....we have the problem of no uniformity when we present ourselves to our customers.   We would like you to drop the weight and grooming standard for wear of the USAF uniform, because we can't afford kicking out all the non standard personnel.  If you can't do that we are going to drop the USAF style uniforms as an option for our senior members.  It is the only way to satisfy the requirements of presenting a professional uniform face to our customers and not bring discredit to the USAF uniform.

We already cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF or CAP policy on any uniform. CAWG and their first sergeant's whistle, PA wing all their orange T-shirts.  Florida and their combat chaplains.  My very own squadron has a lot of bad uniforms or complete lack of uniforms.  So as a point of alienating the USAF...it does not matter what uniform we wear.

What USAF really wants is compliance and performance. NOT problems.

Make NO mistake that USAF VERY much cares how we look in the USAF uniform. CAP F'd it up and CAP has to fix it.

Absolutly.....so to remove the problem of non-compliance in USAF uniform wear...we stop wearing it and concentrate on compliance to meeting USAF mission requirements.

[SarDragon]

Bottom line - I ain't shavin'!

[ZigZag911]

NO !!!! You just dont seem to ever get the point of why it is important to keep the USAF uniform. If you don't want to wear it fine. Don't. To move everyone to it only moves us farther from USAF when we should be moving closer.

I am of the school of thought that wants CAP to be the USAF Auxiliary all the time again.

I wonder if all our seniors wearing a corporate uniform properly (not necessarily TPU) might not be more welcomed by USAF than the present situation, in which some are wearing USAF uniform who do not meet grooming standards, and others are wearing the TPU (which, in my view, closely resembles USAF service uniform), again, while not meeting grooming standards.

[LtCol White]

That there are FAR too many uniforms I heartily agree with you. Clearly I prefer the USAF uniform. But I also do not think we should preclude those who do no meet standards from participating. This is the reason we should have the USAF block of uniforms for all who meet WHATEVER the standards are for that and the Corporate block equivalents for all those who do not meet the standards.  It should be a one for one match. Blues/TPU, BDU/BBDU, Flight suit/Blue Filght suit. There are enough similarities in these that it is clear that the organization is the same while satisfying USAF in the wearing of the USAF uniforms.

So status quo.  Live with the problem that we look like a bunch of fools (this is an exaggeration) to our primary customers.

WITHOUT USAF THERE IS NO CAP. You can't tell USAF to "stuff it" and think that CAP will survive. It will be killed faster than an isurgent in Iraq.

Highly disagree with with our here...but this is not the right thread for that.

The bad blood is not a USAF problem with CAP but is the result of the actions of certain individuals IN CAP over the years.

Agree with you here.

IF we professionalize the appearance as well as the actions and USAF see us enforcing regulations instead of finding ways around them, the relationship will repair itself. For this to happen, CAP has to be the one to take the first steps.

Agree...but you are attempting to solve a different problem than I am.

By leaving the USAF uniforms behind in favor of the corporate ones gives the impression that 1. we dont want to look like USAF anymore and 2. we cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF policy for that uniform.

Not if you approach the USAF in the right way.  If you go to them and say....we have the problem of no uniformity when we present ourselves to our customers.   We would like you to drop the weight and grooming standard for wear of the USAF uniform, because we can't afford kicking out all the non standard personnel.  If you can't do that we are going to drop the USAF style uniforms as an option for our senior members.  It is the only way to satisfy the requirements of presenting a professional uniform face to our customers and not bring discredit to the USAF uniform.

We already cannot control our membership to the point of obeying USAF or CAP policy on any uniform. CAWG and their first sergeant's whistle, PA wing all their orange T-shirts.  Florida and their combat chaplains.  My very own squadron has a lot of bad uniforms or complete lack of uniforms.  So as a point of alienating the USAF...it does not matter what uniform we wear.

What USAF really wants is compliance and performance. NOT problems.

Make NO mistake that USAF VERY much cares how we look in the USAF uniform. CAP F'd it up and CAP has to fix it.

Absolutly.....so to remove the problem of non-compliance in USAF uniform wear...we stop wearing it and concentrate on compliance to meeting USAF mission requirements.

You really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

[ddelaney103]

I think we need to concentrate more on making CAP look better and less on trying to look like the AF's little brother.

I am in the ANG.  I wear an AF uniform which, except for a unit patch, looks like every other AF type there.  That's because I train to the same standard of the AD, go on the same missions and face the same hardships and hazards.

I am also an AF civilian, and an Army civilian before that.  Even when I wore a uniform downrange I didn't try to be a military type.  I was an important part of the team but I didn't kid myself - I wasn't the Soldier/Airman.

CAP would be better off being what it is - civilians from all walks of like being of assistance to our community.  All of this obsessing about "being like the AF:" uniforms, weight, PME, UCMJ - only hampers our mission effectiveness while not making us anything more than posers.

If we come to the table saying, "no, we don't look like you: we have old fat guys with beards that are never going to be Airmen.  However, we can do X, Y, and Z missions professionally, effectively, and on the cheap," we'll be better off than clinging to the AF uniform and trying to get credit by how STRAC we are.

If the AF cared about AF over Corp suits, they'd have mentioned it in the Statement of Work.  They want to know what we bring to the table, not how AF we look while we do it.

[lordmonar]

You really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

I get it 100%  You want us to be USAF light.  You want to wear the USAF uniform because that makes you feel more special than someone who wears a blue CAP uniform.  You look down on those who wear CAP blue because they think they are holding us back from getting the recognition we deserve and the missions we should be doing.

And yet.  It's not the USAF who is not calling us.  It's the Oregon State Police, and the local sheriff who are not making the call.  They are the ones we need to be impressing.  And a room full of guys in 8 different uniforms does not help our image to the casual observer.

The USAF has no problems with us wearing corporate uniforms.  We have been in them for over 20 years now.  They do have a problem with us wear USAF uniforms they have been trying to force us out for the last 15 years or so.

Let's make them happy and lets improve our uniformity by going CAP Blue all the way.

Once we have a true unified uniform...we can continue to work on our compliance issues and then we continue to work on our mission qualifications.  Then maybe we will be in better light with the USAF.

[DNall]

I mean once you're the Nat CC what else can you grab but by consolidation. 

Remember though, that not all National Commanders have had delusions of grandeur, godhood, "what's in it for me," or "Hail, me" attitudes.  There have been quite a few, I've met some, and at least one that I know personally who really *did* put the good of the mission and the organization first, and worked with the AF for the good of both.  Unfortunately, it may be a rarer trait than it needs to be at that level. Yep, JMO..

Granted. Tact being the better part of professionalism in this case.

However, I do think the modern system imposes a dramatic dis-incentive to retention or progression by the best people. So many factors of the modern paradigm are in opposition to quality standards & allow something other than the cream to rise to the top, which then creates a roadblock that's been in force for a long time.


Far as the AF versus non-AF uniforms, let me say this...
Patrick, I get where you are coming from. I understand 15 uniform combinations looks stupid & we've obviously taken it to an extreme.

However, if you consolidate everything in CAP so we look alike & find yourself with no further association with the AF (even if we're just talking symbolism in uniforms) then what really was the point. Screw the arrangement, that's like having a hissy fit to paint all the deck chairs the same color as the Titanic sinks.

The team we are trying to consolidate as part of is the AF, not Joe Blow that volunteers next week & writes us a check with the requirement he be alive & not yet a convicted felon.

I would tell you that we should all be in the AF-style uniforms & there should be no such thing as corporate-style alternatives or any mention of a corporation beyond a legal technicality to accept tax-deductible donations. There's a few options I can go with on that:
1) Get AF to relax the standards somewhat, &
a) that becomes the min standard for membership, OR
b) alternative uniforms are only allowed for members that cannot meet AF standards

2) Accept the AF standards & make that a standard of membership, OR

3) Accept that we can't lose a ton of people (pun intended) overnight, so require wear of AF-style by those that can while slowly tightening membership standards with a wide open declared progression.

That's all pretty extreme stuff, but again, the ultimate aim is to be part of the uniformed AF team (symbolically & otherwise) and all that comes with it, not to worry about the feeling of individuals. 14 year old cadets think about immediate gratification like that, we're supposed to be above that, we're supposed to look at the good of the service OVER the good of ourselves & our friends or anyone else, and we're supposed to take the long-view, not worry about next week or next year. The fact of our recruiting & retention numbers is our total membership replaces itself every few years & it's a relatively small number that are active at any given point or that stay on for any extended period. I flat out no mercy don't care if we lose members to make positive change. There'll be 3 more there to take their spot by the end of the year. Sure that's harsh, but raising standards on anything at all is going to mean leaving a significant number of people behind. You can worry about their feelings when you have your focus on the higher purpose.


Oh and by the way, the AF has NEVER EVER suggested much less approved any corporate uniform. They stated ht/wt standards & expected CAP to comply. CAP found an unintended loop-hole & went their own way. You recall seeing that logic in use more recently with both uniforms & dodging technicalities to be able to do more w/o the AF's permission. That's not very team oriented thinking. They have NOT pushed us away on any uniform issue. Every one of those things has been CAP's doing and/or decision. The AF has a standards expectation to be part of their team, and that's it, nothing more or less. I'd encourage you to check your history before you continue blaming AF for these problems.

[SarDragon]

I would like to remind you all that there has been one corporate uniform as far back as 1968 - the blazer. It has changed little over the years. Who originally approved it? Whose idea was it in the first place?

Just passing along info.

YMMV.

[DNall]

which had a whole entirely dif purpose, certainly not competitive with AF uniforms or appropriate in the same situations. My issue is primarily that we've let the sandards down further & further to be inclusive to more people with checkbooks, and in the process drifted off in whatever direction suited our immediate desires at the moment. Thru that we've lost sight of who we are & what we're about, and we've created this whole seperate team that isn't too particularly concerned with the best interests of the AF or even the federal govt. We need a little less "ME" genereation & a little more understanding of what the word auxiliary means.

[ColonelJack]

Now this is what I call a discussion!!   

Here's my two cents.  I find things to agree with in everyone's perspective.  (No, I am not running for office.)  Taking all these things into account, I offer a completely disingenuous and not-at-all-original suggestion to solve the issue:

1.  We accept as fact that there are going to be members of Civil Air Patrol who do not, cannot, do not desire to, and will not meet Air Force uniform standards. 

2.  We accept as fact that there are going to be members of CAP who do, can, desire to, and will meet AF uniform standards.

3.  We accept as fact that each category of member brings skills and talents to the table that CAP and AF need.

4.  We outfit each category with a uniform that is as close to the other category's as it can be while still being distinctive from active-duty AF.

5.  Thus, we come to this:  Those who do meet the standards wear AF uniforms with CAP insignia.  Those who don't wear the so-called TPU.  For field work, those who do wear BDUs (and the ABU when it becomes authorized).  Those who don't wear BBDUs.  For flying, those who do wear AF-style flight suits; those who don't wear CAP flight suits. 

6.  Abracadabra.

Thoughs?

Jack

[LtCol White]

You really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

I get it 100%  You want us to be USAF light.  You want to wear the USAF uniform because that makes you feel more special than someone who wears a blue CAP uniform.  You look down on those who wear CAP blue because they think they are holding us back from getting the recognition we deserve and the missions we should be doing.

And yet.  It's not the USAF who is not calling us.  It's the Oregon State Police, and the local sheriff who are not making the call.  They are the ones we need to be impressing.  And a room full of guys in 8 different uniforms does not help our image to the casual observer.

The USAF has no problems with us wearing corporate uniforms.  We have been in them for over 20 years now.  They do have a problem with us wear USAF uniforms they have been trying to force us out for the last 15 years or so.

Let's make them happy and lets improve our uniformity by going CAP Blue all the way.

Once we have a true unified uniform...we can continue to work on our compliance issues and then we continue to work on our mission qualifications.  Then maybe we will be in better light with the USAF.

First of all, I don't need the USAF uniform to make me feel like anything. Don't be so pompous as to pretend to know me or make ANY assumptions about me and what I believe.

I am a combat decorated former Marine Infantry Officer.  I have been in CAP for 25yrs. I've worked in ES and cadet programs the entire time. I have multiple disaster relief awards, 17 actual finds and the Lifesaving award from one of those. I have worked hard for media coverage for CAP and developed MOU's with State and local governments selling our services and capabilities. Many local governments are willing to work with CAP BECAUSE of the USAF affiliation and have refused offers from "regular" volunteer groups because they often have a tendency to be rogue groups who do what they want.

APPARENTLY you CAN'T read.....I said eliminate the multiple uniforms and have ONE corporate  to match each USAF. I stated VERY clearly that I was all for including those who wear the corporate uniforms. We have had alternate uniforms for MANY years and this NEVER caused a problem. We did not have all the golfshirt, grays, etc... What I advocate CLEARLY in my posts is to eliminate the useless, multiple versions.

If you feel such a need to move away from the USAF uniforms and identity, I suggest that you go find another org to join. We would be better off without you. Its exactly YOUR mindset that has perpetuated the problems that exist today between CAP and USAF. We need PROFESSIONAL people who understand the big picture. Apparently, this isnt you.

[Monty]

You really just dont get it. That or you don't read thoroughly what I wrote.

I get it 100%  You want us to be USAF light.  You want to wear the USAF uniform because that makes you feel more special than someone who wears a blue CAP uniform.  You look down on those who wear CAP blue because they think they are holding us back from getting the recognition we deserve and the missions we should be doing.

And yet.  It's not the USAF who is not calling us.  It's the Oregon State Police, and the local sheriff who are not making the call.  They are the ones we need to be impressing.  And a room full of guys in 8 different uniforms does not help our image to the casual observer.

The USAF has no problems with us wearing corporate uniforms.  We have been in them for over 20 years now.  They do have a problem with us wear USAF uniforms they have been trying to force us out for the last 15 years or so.

Let's make them happy and lets improve our uniformity by going CAP Blue all the way.

Once we have a true unified uniform...we can continue to work on our compliance issues and then we continue to work on our mission qualifications.  Then maybe we will be in better light with the USAF.

First of all, I don't need the USAF uniform to make me feel like anything. Don't be so pompous as to pretend to know me or make ANY assumptions about me and what I believe.

I am a combat decorated former Marine Infantry Officer.  I have been in CAP for 25yrs. I've worked in ES and cadet programs the entire time. I have multiple disaster relief awards, 17 actual finds and the Lifesaving award from one of those. I have worked hard for media coverage for CAP and developed MOU's with State and local governments selling our services and capabilities. Many local governments are willing to work with CAP BECAUSE of the USAF affiliation and have refused offers from "regular" volunteer groups because they often have a tendency to be rogue groups who do what they want.

APPARENTLY you CAN'T read.....I said eliminate the multiple uniforms and have ONE corporate  to match each USAF. I stated VERY clearly that I was all for including those who wear the corporate uniforms. We have had alternate uniforms for MANY years and this NEVER caused a problem. We did not have all the golfshirt, grays, etc... What I advocate CLEARLY in my posts is to eliminate the useless, multiple versions.

If you feel such a need to move away from the USAF uniforms and identity, I suggest that you go find another org to join. We would be better off without you. Its exactly YOUR mindset that has perpetuated the problems that exist today between CAP and USAF. We need PROFESSIONAL people who understand the big picture. Apparently, this isnt you.

Ouch, brother......I mean, I understand passion...but GEEZ........

*****

I don't have a pony in this race, so I hope nobody sees an absence of 3 pages worth of passion on my account and questions my CAP service.

I liken this matter to something that I give MORE of a rat's patook about: my family.

I'm mighty proud to be a Montgomery.  I'm proud to resemble my Dad.  Anybody on the street that sees me knows that I'm a Montgomery and can tell who my parents are.  But neither the public, nor ME, want to be a clone look-alike of my father.

Proud to be a Montgomery....yet proud to be 100% my own face and not a mirror image (or one that could be close enough to be mistaken) as my father.

Concurrently, I'm my father's "Jr."  We share the same first, middle, and last name.  It's nice to carry his name but does one realize what a pain it is to be considered my father in the written form?  (The public generally just chops off the suffix because, "it's not that important" and voila!  I'm my father!)  I could write novels, but I won't: take my word, sometimes having a near-clone name is a pain (God rest my father's soul, nevertheless.)

My opinions on this USAF-style or Corporate-style uniform matter are nearly identical in spirit....for those that can pull it out of the examples herein!   

Now.........everybody; chill out, regardless of whether one is for or against!  The more each of us tries to measure our belt off of another, the more silly we start looking.   

We're grown men......not apes trying to identify some alpha male (which is what it is REALLY starting to look like from my end!) 

Hoo hoo hoo (chimp noises),
-Monty

[MIKE]

Lock.