Custom and Courtisies

[dholt]

I have a question about custom and courtesies. At my squadron I'm a 2nd Lt. and I just earned my dear rank (ach. 10). But I there's another 2nd Lt. who got his Mitchell like 1 month before I did. Well I told him I got my dead rank and he says that I still have to treat him like he's still above me in rank (I still like the guy and whatnot). So my question is now that I'm at ach. 10 and he's still at ach. 9. Do I have to treat him like he's still above me in rank?

[Garibaldi]

He has one month Time in Grade over you. He is still considered your superior until one of you is promoted.

[lordmonar]

Nothing funnier then two 2d Lt's arguing over Date of Rank.

But yes......he is senior to you in rank....the same as you in grade.

[Eclipse]

Rank may be relevant in a staff selection or NCSA application but not in regards to saluting.

Saluting and other countries are based on grade not rank.

[lordmonar]

This was about saluting??!?!?!?!

Oh....that is even worse!

People of the same grade do not salute each other!  Except in a formal situation...like formation.

[dholt]

LOARDMONAR

We were trying to figure this out. Because I've also heard that the one with higher ach. salutes the younger ach. Besides we are really good friends. So if you could just hold off your assumptions till after the whole story turns up I'd appreciate it. THANKS!

[SarDragon]

If you both the same grade, you do not, under normal circumstances, salute each other. Any other C/2d Lt demanding a salute from you, has become too full of himself, and needs to have a little chat with the Leadership Officer.

[Eclipse]

LOARDMONAR

We were trying to figure this out. Because I've also heard that the one with higher ach. salutes the younger ach. Besides we are really good friends. So if you could just hold off your assumptions till after the whole story turns up I'd appreciate it. THANKS!

Then tell the whole story in the initial post.

As to the bold above, you heard wrong.  How, exactly, would the average member of >any< service know the class ranking of someone else?

The salute is based on  what is on your shoulder.  If they are equal, no salute, though you should always be courteous and greet the other person.

[dholt]

Ok! I think I get you, thanks for the help.

[Garibaldi]

I'm not sure what galls me more. The glaring spelling and grammar issues, or the attitudes these cadets (not the OP in this case) display nowadays. To be sure, as a cadet officer, spelling and proper grammar should be utilized at all times. Part of the SDA is putting forth ideas in a coherent manner, and if your spelling or grammar is suffering because of either the lack of attention paid by the teacher or the student, then Houston, we have a problem. This is not the OP's problem. I've just noticed it lately and it galls me that I had to learn it, and college graduates are found lacking in these relatively simple skills. Example: I was on some news site (rhymes with rocks) and in the news stories were so many grammatical errors that I couldn't finish reading the articles. These people putting the stories on the Web are supposedly college graduates. Cadet officers who can't spell COURTESIES...just blows my mind.

[dholt]

Just to let you know. I do know how to spell courtesies, it just catches peoples eye when they see it spelled wrong so they click on the page. I do have some experience with advertising so, it all good. BUT I completely agree with you, on the quality of my grammar. I'm really bad at grammar and writing. But better at math and science.

[BHartman007]

Just to let you know. I do know how to spell courtesies, it just catches peoples eye when they see it spelled wrong so they click on the page. I do have some experience with advertising so, it all good. BUT I completely agree with you, on the quality of my grammar. I'm really bad at grammar and writing. But better at math and science.

:pretend this is a smilie for rolling around laughing:

[dholt]

I don't get it?

[JayT]

I don't get it?

As we call it at La Casa Grande....."nonsense."

[SarDragon]

Just to let you know. I do know how to spell courtesies, it just catches peoples eye when they see it spelled wrong so they click on the page. I do have some experience with advertising so, it all good. BUT I completely agree with you, on the quality of my grammar. I'm really bad at grammar and writing. But better at math and science.

That is absolute BS!

I am more likely to ignore a post with poor grammar and spelling, than I am to take special interest in it.

Here's part of my general message regarding writing skills, and how they apply here, and to CAP in general.

Readers will treat your posts more seriously if they see that you think they are important enough to use correct English.

Your posts are a look at you and your attitude. If you don't care how your posts look, a lot of folks aren't going to care enough to help you out, or pay attention to what you write. There are also all kinds of people reading what you write on CT who could help decide your future, particularly in CAP.

You are doing yourself a huge disservice by being cavalier about your writing skills. You will have some sort of need for them throughout life, and the earlier you get good at it, the better off you will be. This forum, in particular, is a good learning environment, where you can makes mistakes, get helpful feedback, and not have them make a big difference on something really important.

[blackrain]

I once saw a superior officer (real live U.S. Military) chew out a couple of LTs who were arguing over who outranked who. He eloquently compared them to 2 (insert your favorite euphemism for ladies of ill repute) discussing who was more virtuous. 

[FlyTiger77]

I do know how to spell courtesies, it just catches peoples eye when they see it spelled wrong so they click on the page.

A swing and a miss. Strike two.

A train wreck catches the eye, too. I have found the best course of action when I find myself in a hole is to stop digging.

[Garibaldi]

I don't know about anyone else,  but I set up the unread thread page as a favorite, and just cruise down the list. Misspellings do not catch my eye and make me want to read the thread; they make me want to hurl a thesaurus and a dictionary through the monitor and hope their constituent molecules somehow merge and land in the offender's lap.

[SarDragon]

I don't know about anyone else,  but I set up the unread thread page as a favorite, and just cruise down the list. Misspellings do not catch my eye and make me want to read the thread; they make me want to hurl a thesaurus and a dictionary through the monitor and hope their constituent molecules somehow merge and land in the offender's lap.

AMEN, Brutha!

[Cap'n]

I'm just clarifying for my own knowledge: Hypothetically, you have two cadets- one has their Goddard (1st C/CMSgt achievement), and received it a week before a second cadet. However, this second cadet then gets their Armstrong (2nd C/CMSgt achievement), while the first cadet still only has their Goddard. So the Goddard cadet would still out rank the Armstrong cadet, correct?

If that didn't make any sense, tell me and I can rephrase.

[Eclipse]

Out rank? Yes.   Difference in grade?  No.

Just as in the military and the civilian world, class ranking may make a difference on applications, but means nothing day-to-day, certainly
it does not confer or infer any superiority or subordination in grade.

[MIKE]

If the achievement confers no grade... I would say it would be irrelevant as to date of grade for purposes of seniority. But if you wanted to say that a C/CMSgt with an Armstrong is senior to a C/CMSgt with a Goddard...  I suppose you could.  One is closer to C/2d Lt than the other.

[BHartman007]

I'm just clarifying for my own knowledge: Hypothetically, you have two cadets- one has their Goddard (1st C/CMSgt achievement), and received it a week before a second cadet. However, this second cadet then gets their Armstrong (2nd C/CMSgt achievement), while the first cadet still only has their Goddard. So the Goddard cadet would still out rank the Armstrong cadet, correct?

If that didn't make any sense, tell me and I can rephrase.

Whichever one has been a C/CMSgt longest outranks the other.

[ol'fido]

I once heard that "office politics" in higher education/academics is so vicious because the stakes are so small. Don't know if it's true, but this thread makes me think of that.

[Storm Chaser]

I'm just clarifying for my own knowledge: Hypothetically, you have two cadets- one has their Goddard (1st C/CMSgt achievement), and received it a week before a second cadet. However, this second cadet then gets their Armstrong (2nd C/CMSgt achievement), while the first cadet still only has their Goddard. So the Goddard cadet would still out rank the Armstrong cadet, correct?

If that didn't make any sense, tell me and I can rephrase.

Whichever one has been a C/CMSgt longest outranks the other.

That is correct. Seniority has nothing to do with achievements and everything to do with rank. When two members are equal in rank, the member who has been that rank the longest outranks the other.

That said, rank is not the most important thing in a CAP unit or activity as members of lesser ranks often have positions of more responsibility and authority than others of higher rank. As an example, my unit has several Lt Cols, but the squadron commander is a Maj. The Maj may have to salute the Lt Cols when outdoors, but as commander, the Maj is still the officer in charge and with command authority over the unit. The commander also takes precedence in certain ceremonies and formations regardless of rank.

[Storm Chaser]

I have a question about custom and courtesies. At my squadron I'm a 2nd Lt. and I just earned my dear rank (ach. 10). But I there's another 2nd Lt. who got his Mitchell like 1 month before I did. Well I told him I got my dead rank and he says that I still have to treat him like he's still above me in rank (I still like the guy and whatnot). So my question is now that I'm at ach. 10 and he's still at ach. 9. Do I have to treat him like he's still above me in rank?

To answer the OP, while the other C/2d Lt outranks you by a month, that has very little relevance in the real world. As I said in my previous post, in CAP positions are more important than rank. One month difference is pretty negligible and, as such, you are both considered peers (unless one of you is in a position of higher authority). You both are cadet officers and should treat each other with the appropriate respect. The only time when that seniority would be relevant is if there's a need to determine the senior ranking officer (SRO) to be place in charge of a group. But even then, most of these appointments will not necessarily be made base on that alone. Usually, the best person for the particular job is selected regardless of one cadet having more seniority by just a month.

[lordmonar]

I'm just clarifying for my own knowledge: Hypothetically, you have two cadets- one has their Goddard (1st C/CMSgt achievement), and received it a week before a second cadet. However, this second cadet then gets their Armstrong (2nd C/CMSgt achievement), while the first cadet still only has their Goddard. So the Goddard cadet would still out rank the Armstrong cadet, correct?

If that didn't make any sense, tell me and I can rephrase.

Yes.

In the military the precedence of rank go like this.

Date of Rank
Date of Service
Date of Birth
Alphabetical Order

In CAP the "Sustained" achievements don't confer any "promotion" so the DOR stays the same.

Yes...it is kind of backwards....but having the sustained achievements is kind of strange IMHO, but there you go.

[a2capt]

..and that "outranking" thing on time in grade has to be the most wicked amount of voodoo in the entire formula. Since we don't have any kind of device or indicator that gives time in grade, it's really kind of ambiguous.

If people are asking, "hey, how long have you been Lt. Col?" just so they can figure out what side of someone to stand on, or who gets dibs ..

Can't really go by the service ribbon and it's clasps. Could have just gotten that rank awarded yesterday and still have 47 years in CAP. 

[lordmonar]

I once heard that "office politics" in higher education/academics is so vicious because the stakes are so small. Don't know if it's true, but this thread makes me think of that.

Well...in military terms.....who out ranks who....has some very important legal and command consequnces....so it is one of the things you have to know.....just in case. 

But beyond that.......it is just kind of an academic exercise.   It is has very little bearing on who is actually in charge....in fact the AFI's specifically states that for EPR purposes....a supervisor can be assigned a subordinate who out ranks him/her. (I know this to be true as I supervises another TSgt who outranked me by six months.)

[JeffDG]

If people are asking, "hey, how long have you been Lt. Col?" just so they can figure out what side of someone to stand on, or who gets dibs ..

Date of rank is a field tracked by eServices, and available in CAPWATCH.  If you have a protocol intensive event where you need to get that information, your IT folks can easily pull the data you need provided they have some experience dealing with Excel.

[ol'fido]

I once heard that "office politics" in higher education/academics is so vicious because the stakes are so small. Don't know if it's true, but this thread makes me think of that.

Well...in military terms.....who out ranks who....has some very important legal and command consequnces....so it is one of the things you have to know.....just in case. 

But beyond that.......it is just kind of an academic exercise.   It is has very little bearing on who is actually in charge....in fact the AFI's specifically states that for EPR purposes....a supervisor can be assigned a subordinate who out ranks him/her. (I know this to be true as I supervises another TSgt who outranked me by six months.)

It may in the military, but in CAP where cadets can promote every two months usually, it seems very ....petty.

[UH60guy]

I once heard that "office politics" in higher education/academics is so vicious because the stakes are so small. Don't know if it's true, but this thread makes me think of that.

Well...in military terms.....who out ranks who....has some very important legal and command consequnces....so it is one of the things you have to know.....just in case. 

But beyond that.......it is just kind of an academic exercise.   It is has very little bearing on who is actually in charge....in fact the AFI's specifically states that for EPR purposes....a supervisor can be assigned a subordinate who out ranks him/her. (I know this to be true as I supervises another TSgt who outranked me by six months.)

It may in the military, but in CAP where cadets can promote every two months usually, it seems very ....petty.

Agreed. I have never once asked, cared, or needed to know someone's date of rank in my ten years in the real (TM) military. To think about two officers concerned over who can pull rank over whom in a volunteer service organization seems like their enthusiasm can be better focused. However, in the interest of answering the OP question, neither calls the other sir or salutes the other.

[lordmonar]

It may in the military, but in CAP where cadets can promote every two months usually, it seems very ....petty.

Hence my first post about how it is ridiculous for Lt's to be worrying about Time in Grade. 

[Nuke52]

I'm just clarifying for my own knowledge: Hypothetically, you have two cadets- one has their Goddard (1st C/CMSgt achievement), and received it a week before a second cadet. However, this second cadet then gets their Armstrong (2nd C/CMSgt achievement), while the first cadet still only has their Goddard. So the Goddard cadet would still out rank the Armstrong cadet, correct?

If that didn't make any sense, tell me and I can rephrase.

Whichever one has been a C/CMSgt longest outranks the other.

Sure, let him/her "outrank" you for another month or two, then re-ask the question after you get your Mitchell first.  I'll bet who outranked whom as C/CMSgts won't matter so much then...

[Storm Chaser]

Trying to pull rank based on a month TIG shows a lack of leadership on the part of this cadet.

To be honest, I have a problem with the way the cadet promotion system is set up, where a cadet can promote to most ranks every couple of months. You end up with cadet officers that are too young and immature, and lack the necessary experience and leadership skills for the rank they have.

Back when I was a cadet, we didn't get to test very often and our squadron leadership didn't let us promote until we were ready for the extra responsibility. We had to perform well in every capacity and if we didn't, we had to wait to get promoted. The end result was cadet officers that were very well rounded and experienced. Now a day, I see units with lots of cadet officers and senior NCOs that have no military bearing, don't use appropriate customs and courtesies, can't march and don't wear their uniforms properly. And what do we do? We promote them and/or give them a ribbon every few months. Of course, I'm sure that's not the case everywhere, but it does happen often.

[Eclipse]

^ That's a double-edged sword.  Without regular testing opportunities, some unit artificially suppress their cadets.  USAFAUX2004's old unit didn't test in any way for over a year.
Not fair to the cadets.

I've seen those "promotion farm units" as well. A whole cadre that "magically" makes every promotion, to the day, as a group?  Then just as magically they all
get to double diamonds and not a single triple emerges, nor even tries, since that's the first time anyone outside the unit vets the cadet.

Not cricket.

[lordmonar]

I think maybe we need to reassess what we think cadets should be able to do at each rank.

This is where CAP's military model breaks down a little.

In the Real Military (tm)......we expect a CMSgt to be an expert in his field with years of experience and Professional Development training to operate at a strategic level.   We don't expect a 2d Lt to be able to work at this level.

But in CAP all our 2d Lt's are former CMSgts......and there is the break down. 

If I were building the program up from the ground.....I would think very hard about even having officer ranks.
I would maybe expect our SSgts to be at the level where we currently have Mitchell and CMSgts would be Eakers.....with our Spaatz being Lt's.

YMMV.

[Walkman]

I think maybe we need to reassess what we think cadets should be able to do at each rank.

This is where CAP's military model breaks down a little.

In the Real Military (tm)......we expect a CMSgt to be an expert in his field with years of experience and Professional Development training to operate at a strategic level.   We don't expect a 2d Lt to be able to work at this level.

But in CAP all our 2d Lt's are former CMSgts......and there is the break down. 

If I were building the program up from the ground.....I would think very hard about even having officer ranks.
I would maybe expect our SSgts to be at the level where we currently have Mitchell and CMSgts would be Eakers.....with our Spaatz being Lt's.

YMMV.

Or, I could see where the TIG for higher grade increase proportionately. Example: E1-E4 test = eligible to promo every 2 months, E5-E7, every 4, etc. Just a thought piggy-backing...

Or, CCs and other leaders actually lead and mentor the cadets correctly, use CAPF-50s for solid feedback and generally follow the program the way its supposed to be and...

[Storm Chaser]

^ That's a double-edged sword.  Without regular testing opportunities, some unit artificially suppress their cadets.  USAFAUX2004's old unit didn't test in any way for over a year.
Not fair to the cadets.

I wasn't suggesting that at all. In fact, there were times when the lack or infrequent testing opportunities did hurt the progression of many of our cadets, myself included.

My main complaint with the current system is that it allows for cadets to (sometimes) promote too fast, even when they're not ready for the new rank. I know it's up to the commanders and/or DCCs to ensure cadets not only meet the minimum standards, but are also ready for the increased responsibility that comes with the rank, but you know that doesn't always happen. I personally know of cadets that can pass every test, yet lack the necessary leadership required for each additional rank.

The problem is that if they continue to promote, it just gets worst. You expect, for example, that a C/CMSgt should be able to wear his/her uniform properly, observe the necessary customs and courtesies, be able to march and command a flight, and be a leader in the unit. When that's not happening, yet the cadet continues to get promoted, you know there's a problem. That may not happen in every squadron, but it certainly happens in more than a few.

[Eclipse]

Sadly, there aren't always the oportunities to perform at grade level - a unit with 1 senior, 3 empty shirts, and
5 cadets randomly showing up isn't going to offer many leader or follower opportunities.  Add in the "we don't go outside
the unit" mentality and you are where you are.

A little icing on the cake is that when these cadets do get corrected on "whatever", their poorly informed home leaders
"unfix" them soon after.

[bflynn]

neither calls the other sir or salutes the other.

I would qualify this only slightly - neither one is required to salute the other or call the other one sir.  Salutes may be exchanged between officers of the same rank, just not required.  It is a cordial greeting showing respect for another person.  That is never inappropriate.  I've seen it quite often as a greeting, especially when you meet someone for the first time during the day.

[Storm Chaser]

^ Well said.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

... I know it's up to the commanders and/or DCCs to ensure cadets not only meet the minimum standards, but are also ready for the increased responsibility that comes with the rank, but you know that doesn't always happen. ...

We (CAP) tell commanders not to promote till they are ready but count cadet promotions toward Squadron of Merit, etc.

Bit of a mixed signal?

[BillB]

OK This has gone three pages, so where is the comments on Uniforms?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

OK This has gone three pages, so where is the comments on Uniforms?

Grade insignia goes on uniform. Happy now?

[lordmonar]

... I know it's up to the commanders and/or DCCs to ensure cadets not only meet the minimum standards, but are also ready for the increased responsibility that comes with the rank, but you know that doesn't always happen. ...

We (CAP) tell commanders not to promote till they are ready but count cadet promotions toward Squadron of Merit, etc.

Bit of a mixed signal?

No.  Not a mixed signal.  We tell the commanders and DCC's to promote only when ready.....but don't retrain or fire them when they demonstrate that they can't follow policy....that is the mixed signal.

[SARDOC]

Just a little Anecdote about saluting.

A Young Marine Second Lieutenant walking down the sidewalk happens to be Passed by a young Private First Class.  The PFC preoccupied with something fails to salute the Lieutenant.  The Lieutenant orders the PFC to turn around and stand in the position of Attention.  This gains the notice of the Battalion Sergeant Major.  the Lieutenant orders the PFC to Salute him 100 times.  The PFC complies with the order to do so.  The Sergeant Major approaches the Two and renders the appropriate greeting and salute to the Lieutenant.  The Sergeant Major reminds the Lieutenant "Sir, the appropriate custom and Courtesies require that you return each salute.  Good day, Sir."

[ARandomCadet]

Just a little Anecdote about saluting.

A Young Marine Second Lieutenant walking down the sidewalk happens to be Passed by a young Private First Class.  The PFC preoccupied with something fails to salute the Lieutenant.  The Lieutenant orders the PFC to turn around and stand in the position of Attention.  This gains the notice of the Battalion Sergeant Major.  the Lieutenant orders the PFC to Salute him 100 times.  The PFC complies with the order to do so.  The Sergeant Major approaches the Two and renders the appropriate greeting and salute to the Lieutenant.  The Sergeant Major reminds the Lieutenant "Sir, the appropriate custom and Courtesies require that you return each salute.  Good day, Sir."

And that my friends is an epic fail for that second lt.

[Brad]

Just a little Anecdote about saluting.

A Young Marine Second Lieutenant walking down the sidewalk happens to be Passed by a young Private First Class.  The PFC preoccupied with something fails to salute the Lieutenant.  The Lieutenant orders the PFC to turn around and stand in the position of Attention.  This gains the notice of the Battalion Sergeant Major.  the Lieutenant orders the PFC to Salute him 100 times.  The PFC complies with the order to do so.  The Sergeant Major approaches the Two and renders the appropriate greeting and salute to the Lieutenant.  The Sergeant Major reminds the Lieutenant "Sir, the appropriate custom and Courtesies require that you return each salute.  Good day, Sir."

And that my friends is an epic fail for that second lt.

The version I heard had Chesty Puller in place of the SgtMaj, heh.

[stillamarine]

Just a little Anecdote about saluting.

A Young Marine Second Lieutenant walking down the sidewalk happens to be Passed by a young Private First Class.  The PFC preoccupied with something fails to salute the Lieutenant.  The Lieutenant orders the PFC to turn around and stand in the position of Attention.  This gains the notice of the Battalion Sergeant Major.  the Lieutenant orders the PFC to Salute him 100 times.  The PFC complies with the order to do so.  The Sergeant Major approaches the Two and renders the appropriate greeting and salute to the Lieutenant.  The Sergeant Major reminds the Lieutenant "Sir, the appropriate custom and Courtesies require that you return each salute.  Good day, Sir."

And that my friends is an epic fail for that second lt.

The version I heard had Chesty Puller in place of the SgtMaj, heh.

That's the true version. It was in his biography. One of the reasons Chesty was so beloved by his troops.