Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant

[MSG Mac]

I seem to recall that last year National Headquarters came down real hard on the appointment of and wearing of Cadet Command Master Chief Sergeant grade during encampments. But the [encampment redacted for non-attribution -mod] obviously didn't get the message.

[NCRblues]

I seem to recall that last year National Headquarters came down real hard on the appointment of and wearing of Cadet Command Master Chief Sergeant grade during encampments. But the [encampment redacted for non-attribution -mod] obviously didn't get the message.

They did not mind the position of

They very clearly banned the star from wear.

If I recall correctly, that is the same encampment that generated the warning in the first place.

[PHall]

How did they "ban" it? Did they send a letter, message, what? Because I don't recall seeing or even hearing about this.

[lordmonar]

Ban is not the right term....as there is no insignia for C/CCMSgt there is nothing to ban.

I think what really got the guys in trouble last year was not so much the star....but the Smokey Bear hat he was wearing in the encampment photos.

[Eclipse]

How did they "ban" it? Did they send a letter, message, what? Because I don't recall seeing or even hearing about this.

A letter with photos of Smokey Bear and his Minions was sent to all Region CC's, and it's posted here somewhere.

I also seem to recall that a pic or two is included in either the new encampment guide or the RST guide with a big "don't".

[Silva Bullet]

Hmmm, I wore my star to the 2013 GAWG encampment and didn't get hassled. As a basic that is.

[MSG Mac]

There is no such cadet grade in CAP! Check your uniform manual. CAPR 52-16 specifically states that there are " NO DESCRETIONARY GRADES"  in CAP. Therefore wearing the star is wrong and a violation of CAP regs. There is only one   Chief in CAP, Her name is Lou Walpus and she works directly for the National Commander.

[Ned]

There is no such cadet grade in CAP!

True enough.

But any activity commander that believes it is necessary may certainly create the position of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant.

And it sounds like we agree that a star worn with the grade insignia is unauthorized. 

So, the position is fine.  Unauthorized grade insignia and headgear are not.

[Eclipse]

There is no such cadet grade in CAP! Check your uniform manual. CAPR 52-16 specifically states that there are " NO DESCRETIONARY GRADES"  in CAP. Therefore wearing the star is wrong and a violation of CAP regs. There is only one   Chief in CAP, Her name is Lou Walpus and she works directly for the National Commander.

Actually, there are thousands of Chiefs, mostly cadets, but a few seniors as well.  My wing even has an E-9 wearing the diamond who used to wear the star, but
yes there's only one "Command Chief Master Sergeant of the Civil Air Patrol".

[abdsp51]

Any one have a link to that pic?

[PHall]

How did they "ban" it? Did they send a letter, message, what? Because I don't recall seeing or even hearing about this.

A letter with photos of Smokey Bear and his Minions was sent to all Region CC's, and it's posted here somewhere.

I also seem to recall that a pic or two is included in either the new encampment guide or the RST guide with a big "don't".

I just went through RST two weeks ago and that pic wasn't there.  And we were using the latest version of RST too.

[PHall]

There is no such cadet grade in CAP! Check your uniform manual. CAPR 52-16 specifically states that there are " NO DESCRETIONARY GRADES"  in CAP. Therefore wearing the star is wrong and a violation of CAP regs. There is only one   Chief in CAP, Her name is Lou Walpus and she works directly for the National Commander.

You're thinking Army where CSM is a grade.  In the Air Force Command Chief and First Sergeant are positions.
Matter of fact, a First Sergeant in the Air Force can be an E-7, E-8 or an E-9. The grade authorised for the position is determined by the size of the unit.

[Eclipse]

How did they "ban" it? Did they send a letter, message, what? Because I don't recall seeing or even hearing about this.

A letter with photos of Smokey Bear and his Minions was sent to all Region CC's, and it's posted here somewhere.

I also seem to recall that a pic or two is included in either the new encampment guide or the RST guide with a big "don't".

I just went through RST two weeks ago and that pic wasn't there.  And we were using the latest version of RST too.

I'll find it - running out the door to a BBQ right now, gone the rest of the day.
It came out early Augustish last year (2012) right after a discussion here regarding "covers" that highlighted a Facebook page for the MAWG encampment
that had cadets in ridiculous Smokey Hats with some other issues as well.   The FB links in those threads are dead now.

We also reference it in an August thread here regarding 52-24.

[ol'fido]

There is no such cadet grade in CAP! Check your uniform manual. CAPR 52-16 specifically states that there are " NO DESCRETIONARY GRADES"  in CAP. Therefore wearing the star is wrong and a violation of CAP regs. There is only one   Chief in CAP, Her name is Lou Walpus and she works directly for the National Commander.

You're thinking Army where CSM is a grade.  In the Air Force Command Chief and First Sergeant are positions.
Matter of fact, a First Sergeant in the Air Force can be an E-7, E-8 or an E-9. The grade authorised for the position is determined by the size of the unit.

In the Army an E-8 cab either be a Master Sergeant(3 up, 3 down, no diamond) or a First Sergeant with the diamond. To be a First Sergeant and wear the diamond, you must be assigned as a First Sergeant to a company. You can be a Master Sergeant and be the top sergeant in a unit but unless it is a formally organized company, you will be referred to as the NCOIC or some schools will have E-8s with the title of Superintendent or Commandant. Sergeants Major are either "staff" Sergeants Major with just the star or they will be Command Sergeant Majors with the star and the wreath. Both are still E-9s.

[MSgt Van]

Your "E9" isn't authorised to wear the diamond in CAP uniform either.

[Eclipse]

Your "E9" isn't authorized to wear the diamond in CAP uniform either.

You can't even imagine how much I don't care.

[PHall]

Your "E9" isn't authorised to wear the diamond in CAP uniform either.

They can if they're a senior member and they choose wear their military NCO grade if their current or last assignment before retirement was an E9 First Sergeant (which is pretty frickin' rare).

[Майор Хаткевич]

Your "E9" isn't authorized to wear the diamond in CAP uniform either.

You can't even imagine how much I don't care.

+1 saw the man twice. Seems like a swell guy. I let others care about it, and they dont seem to.

[MSgt Van]

Your "E9" isn't authorized to wear the diamond in CAP uniform either.

You can't even imagine how much I don't care.

Sorry, didn't mean to clutter up your forum with useless banter.

[Eclipse]

Your "E9" isn't authorized to wear the diamond in CAP uniform either.

You can't even imagine how much I don't care.

Sorry, didn't mean to clutter up your forum with useless banter.

I live for useless banter, just didn't have any interest in the "you need to fix that conversation", also,
as indicated above, I don't think you're correct.  I can tell you from empirical evidence that he's got the
right to the star and the diamond, however how that translates to CAP wear is anyone's guess.

[MSG Mac]

MSG Van is right, the FIrst Sergeant diamonds go when one leaves the position or is reassigned to a new unit or position, and he reverts to his earned grade (E 9,8,7, etc).

[Eclipse]

MSG Van is right, the FIrst Sergeant diamonds go when one leaves the position or is reassigned to a new unit or position, and he reverts to his earned grade (E 9,8,7, etc).

Of course, but what about when you retire? 

Wouldn't retired service members continue to wear the last sleeve insignia they wore on their uniform (if and when they wore it for some ceremonial reason)?

Just for useless banter's sake I could see the argument from either side.

[lordmonar]

A retired First Sergeant or Command Chief is entired to keep his diamonds or stars........but has zero bearing on CAP.

A retired 4 star General is only entitled to Lt Col in CAP....so a Retired CMSAF is only entitled to CMSgt in CAP.

[Eclipse]

A retired 4 star General is only entitled to Lt Col in CAP....so a Retired CMSAF is only entitled to CMSgt in CAP.

How is one like the other?   The 4-star is artificially limited by our regs because we have a positional requirement for general grade and have been limited to
2-stars.

I don't see any limitation or verbiage that limits the highest enlisted grade in CAP.   In fact, pretty much the opposite since CAP can't appoint NCOs internally,
so they have to accept the grade as it exists for whomever they appoint as Command Chief, could be an E5, and there's no way to promote them.

[lordmonar]

Command Chief and First Sergeants are not ranks.....nor grades....they are positions.

[PHall]

Command Chief and First Sergeants are not ranks.....nor grades....they are positions.

Didn't I say that about a week ago....