Multiple awards for the same action prohibited by 39-3

[Eclipse]

Squadron CC's should certainly get a dec for a successful tour - that is a practice which is commensurate with the military and
anyone who serves as a Unit CC has certainly exceeded the services of their peer members.

Now, to qualify for something more then that, they should show accomplishments far beyond their peer CC's.

[Critical AOA]

While I choose not to wear the AF uniform and thus do not really care about ribbons and such, I do understand how some folks feel the need to acquire their rewards and pin them to their chest for all to see.  Still it seems like some folks on CAP Talk dwell on this far too much and appear overly concerned that others might be getting more bling than they are.   

[lordmonar]

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

Putting on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community should get yo a 2b, not a Comm Comm.

We don't do that.

Yep......should do anything to help our community be ready for an emergency. 

[Eclipse]

^ Again, for those who are apparently "new", CAP is not "all things to all men", we have a very narrow, specific lane as to what we are allowed
to do, and much of that is because of our split personality, the role of the our big-brother service, 60 years of member bad behavior and 60 years of lawyers
cleaning up the mess and trying to keep their calendars clear.

There are many things we should be doing, and far less that we are allowed to.

Perhaps if we started concentrating on our core missions, and exhibiting more systematic (vs anecdotal) proficiency organization-wide, that would change.

[lordmonar]

I agree...that we should not be all things to everyone.

But if you go back and look at what he said....and how you responded.

You not only said we should not be doing this sort of thing....but we should be kicked out for even trying.

I don't see how that is helpful. 

Assuming that this actually happened......what's the problem?  Really?  A CAP squadron commander coordinating with the local ARC (I would assume) to put on a CPR/first aid event?   

Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing?  There is no regulation that says we can't.  It increases our presence in our community.  It establishes us as part of the DR force for our community.

Even if we should be focusing on other things.......it should not be a 2b offense to try to do good work for our community.

Attitudes like yours is why CAP is shrinking in out communities, state and nation. 

[Eclipse]

Assuming that this actually happened......what's the problem?  Really?  A CAP squadron commander coordinating with the local ARC (I would assume) to put on a CPR/first aid event?   

That is not what you said.

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

I don't see the words "coordinate" or "ARC" in there anywhere.

[Tim Medeiros]

So when someone "puts on" an SLS, are they the only ones teaching?  Or are they the ones that are primarily responsible for holding said event?  (ie, coordinating)

[Luis R. Ramos]

So far I have come to the conclusion that Eclipse is very narrow on understanding concepts, talks, events. Not meant to diss or insult him. I am the same in some of his views. I believe in the narrow interpretation of regulations.

However in this case I read Private when he mentioned "Put on" to mean he coordinated. Either contacted a person he knew was an instructor, provided the venue - lent his squadron meeting place for the event, etc. Not that PI instructed...

But that is the idiosincracy [sic!] of the English language. English words mean something slightly different to different people...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

But that is the idiosincracy [sic!] of the English language. English words mean something slightly different to different people...

They do, and that's a huge problem with our program - easily misinterpreted regulations.

Just as we've moved from jargon on the radio(s), we need to use clear terms and words, and say exactly what we want done / mean in the regs.

[lordmonar]

Then maybe we should be careful of how we react to what people say......before we threaten 2b action.

[Chappie]

In a few days from now, I will complete my tenure as the PCR HC.  Last month at the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, during the concluding luncheon it was my privilege/pleasure to present 5 Com Coms to individuals who were project officers for the staff colleges conducted from 2009-2013 and 6 Meritorious Service Awards to members of my staff for their continuous service during my tenure.   No problem getting the F120s through/approved.   "Awards Made Easy" (CAPP 39-3) http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P039_003_F66823F4021E0.pdf is a great resource.

[Private Investigator]

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

Putting on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community should get yo a 2b, not a Comm Comm.

We don't do that.

So I give a class in the pilot's lounge at the local airport and do CAP recruiting on the side I will get 2B?

Cite please?

[Private Investigator]

Then maybe we should be careful of how we react to what people say......before we threaten 2b action.

Roger that. Most of the problems I was called in on as a IG were misunderstandings and miscommunications.

[Eclipse]

So I give a class in the pilot's lounge at the local airport and do CAP recruiting on the side I will get 2B?

Cite please?

You can do whatever you like for whomever you like as a private citizen.
As a member of CAP, acting in that capacity, you are not allowed to provide first aid training to members or the general public. 

See 60-3.

[CAPAPRN]

Are you referring to 124-f which prohibits the providing of care (e.g. a doctor-patient relationship is established). Because I am not sure (although I do not have the entire document memorized) I agree.  Training is most definitely not a provision of care, and when you are trained by the ARC you are covered by them - just regurge the material. In fact I am pretty sure CAP encourage HSO's who are ARC or AHA instructors to do CPR classes for CAP members- would seem the liability (civilian or CAP students) would be exactly the same. None. The training specifically tells you you can only perform those things you are fully competent at. The card even states it only verifies you took the course- nothing more No one that I know of in the history of CPR has ever sued the instructor- they sue the performer (in fact as the patient has no relationship with the instructor most states provide no right to sue the instructor due to lack of standing. So while I am still not interested in using my limited resources doing a community class, I am not clear why the class would be prohibited anymore than an aerospace education teacher giving a demo class. They are both educational activities, potential recruitment activities etc.,  not the provision of medical care. Now I will log off, let everyone rip me to shreds and tell all of CAP talk why a Navy vet with 4 college degrees who is the VP of the medical staff at a state VA, an Assoc Prof. at Yale and a part time hospitalist cant play golf (extra credit if you can figure out what that means)

[Eclipse]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require
that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

I can't begin to imagine how anyone could read that, and other regs related to this issue and think that it would still be OK for a CAP member, acting as such,
to provide any direct instruction to the general public.  I guarantee the JA's would put a stop to that in the first sentence, and I have personally confirmed
with both the OPS Directorate who consulted the General Counsel that CAP is not allowed to provide any operational or ES training to non-members.

We've had people assert that it is "perfectly OK for members who are also FA instructors to provide their members the training while in uniform".  I assert that
it isn't, and those around me who fall into that category agree, but there will always be someone willing to risk the organization's liability and name just to "do what they will".

Now, to bring this huge drift semi-back to the line, I will say that on more then one occasion I have witnessed members being decorated for actions which
others would consider termination-level issues, so in Lordmonor's example, it would not surprise me one bit if someone wound up with a dec for doing it.

Just to be clear - if a unit CC wants to have a day of community outreach and connect an FA instructor to the general public, good on him.  If he stands at the
front of the room providing the instruction, then he's risking "accelerated separation".

[lordmonar]

60-3 makes it clear?   

Sorry.....you were asked for a cite.....clear would indicate a paragraph reference.

[SarDragon]

Here's the quote:

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

That's not the same as "goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. " [Emphasis mine]

That said, the last two First Aid/CPR classes I took were taught by a CAP member, under the auspices of an external agency. He signed the cards as a member of that agency, NOT as a CAP member.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I personally do not feel it prohibits me from teaching CAP units First Aid in uniform. My records are still kept by my AHA training center. And "provided by an outside agency" can be interpreted as "instructor preparation." My squadron knows I am an AHA instructor. They ask me for a class. I come that day in mufti or with a shirt that says "AHA Instructor." I have not stopped being a CAP member.

Until regulations are so clear to state "no CAP member who happens to be an instructor shall teach these classes" will this debate go away.

However, you know what will happen? Since now we would have to go to another resource for these classes, most members will be charged the full price of the class. That is to include the actual per-hour instructor pay. Right now I would teach a First Aid class for the price of the manual, card, and materials for about $30 per person to CAP members. Versus the actual price of $75 charged to those outside.

Why don't we hear from Ned on this issue?

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities.

I think this is open to interpretation. CAPR 60-3 clearly states that CAP "will not be the primary provider...", but that "qualified personnel can be used to support such activities." The way I read this in reference to First Aid training is that CAP as an organization cannot provide training and/or issue a card or certificate. A CAP member who is a qualified First Aid instructor with ARC, for example, can be used to provide such training. The First Aid card would be issued by ARC, not CAP. Whether a CAP unit organizes the training, provides its facilities, or the instructor wears his CAP uniform while teaching is not really addressed by this regulation. The only thing that's clear is that CAP is not providing this training as a primary provider, but supporting it. I don't see the conflict here.

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency. [emphasis mine]

"Normally" means most of the time, but not always. In this context, CAP could provide, facilitate or coordinate this training.