Multiple awards for the same action prohibited by 39-3

[Eclipse]

CAPR 39-3. 28 DEC 2012, Page 4

6. Repetitive Awards:

a. Only one award will be made for a single act of heroism, a single meritorious achievement
or one continuous period of meritorious service.

This is why you don't get a Comm Comm when the unit gets SOM, and if you save someone's life, you get either a Livesaving or S/BMV (etc.).

One per coupon.

It's also why you have to be careful how you write 120's, and should pay attention to dates.

[MSG Mac]

CAPR 39-3. 28 DEC 2012, Page 4

6. Repetitive Awards:

a. Only one award will be made for a single act of heroism, a single meritorious achievement
or one continuous period of meritorious service.

This is why you don't get a Comm Comm when the unit gets SOM, and if you save someone's life, you get either a Livesaving or S/BMV (etc.).

One per coupon.

It's also why you have to be careful how you write 120's, and should pay attention to dates.

Actually the personnel responsible for the success of that squadron or project that earned the SOM or Unit Citation can be written up for the appropriate awards depending on their contribution to the attainment of that award or program. 

[Eclipse]

I disagree - that's a double award for the same thing.

The SOM would be one item on a cumulative decoration for outstanding service, but it should not say "because they got the SOM" as the only criteria.
For that they have already received an award.

[MIKE]

I think it is meant to apply to individual decorations... not necessarily unit citations or service awards etc. 

[lordmonar]

CAPR 39-3. 28 DEC 2012, Page 4

6. Repetitive Awards:

a. Only one award will be made for a single act of heroism, a single meritorious achievement
or one continuous period of meritorious service.

This is why you don't get a Comm Comm when the unit gets SOM, and if you save someone's life, you get either a Livesaving or S/BMV (etc.).

One per coupon.

It's also why you have to be careful how you write 120's, and should pay attention to dates.

The SOM/SOD are not decorations.  Also UNIT AWARDS (which the SOM/SOD would be if they were decorations) are not personal acts of heroism......ergo if you in the real military your unit kicked some major but in a battle.....you all get the PUA or MUA or some such....people IN that unit are still eligible for INDIVIDUAL awards related to the activities that related to the Unit Award.

I will also point out that Everyone who goes to encampment gets an encampment ribbon....but our top performers get (or should get) CAP Achievement or CC Coms.

And you CAN get a life saving award along with a find award........but I agree that the S/BMV already incorporate lifesaving as a main criteria so it would be redundant/redundant.....you could though get a Find and S/BMV.

Save a life.....it is either a Life Saving, BMOV or a SMOV.

[ol'fido]

Not related to this thread at all really, but could someone PM me a sample write up for a ComCom for a squadron commander coming to the end of their term. I have two in my group that are timed out in the next six months.

[Eclipse]

Not related to this thread at all really, but could someone PM me a sample write up for a ComCom for a squadron commander coming to the end of their term. I have two in my group that are timed out in the next six months.

How about...
293 next May, Out you two pixies go... Through the door or out the window!

In all seriousness, I just always wrote either "For exemplary service as Commander, 1234 Squadron", and for a couple "For service as Commander, 1234 Squadron.", with the
dates of the service indicated on the front.  I never had one of those turned down.

[NIN]

The write up for a decoration should *always* include the accomplishments cited.   There shouldn't be an "end of tour" award in CAP.  You should get a decoration for having *accomplished* something besides "getting to the end of your term as unit commander without getting fired or having the unit deactivated."

[JeffDG]

The write up for a decoration should *always* include the accomplishments cited.   There shouldn't be an "end of tour" award in CAP.  You should get a decoration for having *accomplished* something besides "getting to the end of your term as unit commander without getting fired or having the unit deactivated."

I guess that award is only for Wing Commanders.

[lordmonar]

The concept of an "end of tour" decoration is not that you do a tour you get a dec.....but just a rule of thumb of when to do a decoration for sustained service.

If the individual did not do anything that merits an achievement/commendation/meritorious service....then he doesn't get one.

[Devil Doc]

I disagree - that's a double award for the same thing.

The SOM would be one item on a cumulative decoration for outstanding service, but it should not say "because they got the SOM" as the only criteria.
For that they have already received an award.

SOM may be an "Unit Ward" bout how do you wear something on a uniform proving your unit that got award. Should there be a Ribbon made for SOM/SOD units?

[lordmonar]

I disagree - that's a double award for the same thing.

The SOM would be one item on a cumulative decoration for outstanding service, but it should not say "because they got the SOM" as the only criteria.
For that they have already received an award.

SOM may be an "Unit Ward" bout how do you wear something on a uniform proving your unit that got award. Should there be a Ribbon made for SOM/SOD units?

Already suggested that SOD/SOM come with an automatic National Commander's Unit Citation.  Either that or a new SOD/SOM ribbon (which I don't think we really need).

[Private Investigator]

In all seriousness, I just always wrote either "For exemplary service as Commander, 1234 Squadron", and for a couple "For service as Commander, 1234 Squadron.", with the
dates of the service indicated on the front.  I never had one of those turned down.

Same here. I just got one approved recently for a Squadron Commander who finished his four year tour.

[Private Investigator]

The write up for a decoration should *always* include the accomplishments cited.   There shouldn't be an "end of tour" award in CAP.  You should get a decoration for having *accomplished* something besides "getting to the end of your term as unit commander without getting fired or having the unit deactivated."

I technically disagree.

Should a Squadron Commander get a Com Com for each accomplishment that they do?

Like a one day event with AOPA earns a Com Com in some Wings. Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

Every Wing is different. Some Wings do not give anything, others Wings show lots of generosity to their Staff.

[Al Sayre]

A little ribbon is the only recognition and " pay" our volunteers get.  If the action meets the requirements for the award in the judgement of the approving authority, then they should get the award for two reasons:  First, they deserve the recognition for a job well done, and second it encourages others to perform in a similar fashion.  JMHO

[lordmonar]

A little ribbon is the only recognition and " pay" our volunteers get.  If the action meets the requirements for the award in the judgement of the approving authority, then they should get the award for two reasons:  First, they deserve the recognition for a job well done, and second it encourages others to perform in a similar fashion.  JMHO

+100

[Devil Doc]

Agree x3 Now where is my ribbon? That will make 3 

[Flying Pig]

As the Sq Commander, my Squadron earned a Squadron of Merit, and I was awarded a Commanders Commendation by the Wing Commander. 

[Devil Doc]

I'm the Supply Officer, supposedly. They are working me up for Backup ES Officer, DR Officer. So I really doubt I will get an Award because of my unit being SOM. IMO, my Squadron Commander and Deputy Commander should get the award if any.

[Eclipse]

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

Putting on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community should get yo a 2b, not a Comm Comm.

We don't do that.

[Eclipse]

Squadron CC's should certainly get a dec for a successful tour - that is a practice which is commensurate with the military and
anyone who serves as a Unit CC has certainly exceeded the services of their peer members.

Now, to qualify for something more then that, they should show accomplishments far beyond their peer CC's.

[Critical AOA]

While I choose not to wear the AF uniform and thus do not really care about ribbons and such, I do understand how some folks feel the need to acquire their rewards and pin them to their chest for all to see.  Still it seems like some folks on CAP Talk dwell on this far too much and appear overly concerned that others might be getting more bling than they are.   

[lordmonar]

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

Putting on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community should get yo a 2b, not a Comm Comm.

We don't do that.

Yep......should do anything to help our community be ready for an emergency. 

[Eclipse]

^ Again, for those who are apparently "new", CAP is not "all things to all men", we have a very narrow, specific lane as to what we are allowed
to do, and much of that is because of our split personality, the role of the our big-brother service, 60 years of member bad behavior and 60 years of lawyers
cleaning up the mess and trying to keep their calendars clear.

There are many things we should be doing, and far less that we are allowed to.

Perhaps if we started concentrating on our core missions, and exhibiting more systematic (vs anecdotal) proficiency organization-wide, that would change.

[lordmonar]

I agree...that we should not be all things to everyone.

But if you go back and look at what he said....and how you responded.

You not only said we should not be doing this sort of thing....but we should be kicked out for even trying.

I don't see how that is helpful. 

Assuming that this actually happened......what's the problem?  Really?  A CAP squadron commander coordinating with the local ARC (I would assume) to put on a CPR/first aid event?   

Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing?  There is no regulation that says we can't.  It increases our presence in our community.  It establishes us as part of the DR force for our community.

Even if we should be focusing on other things.......it should not be a 2b offense to try to do good work for our community.

Attitudes like yours is why CAP is shrinking in out communities, state and nation. 

[Eclipse]

Assuming that this actually happened......what's the problem?  Really?  A CAP squadron commander coordinating with the local ARC (I would assume) to put on a CPR/first aid event?   

That is not what you said.

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

I don't see the words "coordinate" or "ARC" in there anywhere.

[Tim Medeiros]

So when someone "puts on" an SLS, are they the only ones teaching?  Or are they the ones that are primarily responsible for holding said event?  (ie, coordinating)

[Luis R. Ramos]

So far I have come to the conclusion that Eclipse is very narrow on understanding concepts, talks, events. Not meant to diss or insult him. I am the same in some of his views. I believe in the narrow interpretation of regulations.

However in this case I read Private when he mentioned "Put on" to mean he coordinated. Either contacted a person he knew was an instructor, provided the venue - lent his squadron meeting place for the event, etc. Not that PI instructed...

But that is the idiosincracy [sic!] of the English language. English words mean something slightly different to different people...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

But that is the idiosincracy [sic!] of the English language. English words mean something slightly different to different people...

They do, and that's a huge problem with our program - easily misinterpreted regulations.

Just as we've moved from jargon on the radio(s), we need to use clear terms and words, and say exactly what we want done / mean in the regs.

[lordmonar]

Then maybe we should be careful of how we react to what people say......before we threaten 2b action.

[Chappie]

In a few days from now, I will complete my tenure as the PCR HC.  Last month at the Chaplain Corps Region Staff College, during the concluding luncheon it was my privilege/pleasure to present 5 Com Coms to individuals who were project officers for the staff colleges conducted from 2009-2013 and 6 Meritorious Service Awards to members of my staff for their continuous service during my tenure.   No problem getting the F120s through/approved.   "Awards Made Easy" (CAPP 39-3) http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P039_003_F66823F4021E0.pdf is a great resource.

[Private Investigator]

Put on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community for one day at the SQ HQ and get a Com Com for that?

Putting on a CPR/AED First Aid class for the local community should get yo a 2b, not a Comm Comm.

We don't do that.

So I give a class in the pilot's lounge at the local airport and do CAP recruiting on the side I will get 2B?

Cite please?

[Private Investigator]

Then maybe we should be careful of how we react to what people say......before we threaten 2b action.

Roger that. Most of the problems I was called in on as a IG were misunderstandings and miscommunications.

[Eclipse]

So I give a class in the pilot's lounge at the local airport and do CAP recruiting on the side I will get 2B?

Cite please?

You can do whatever you like for whomever you like as a private citizen.
As a member of CAP, acting in that capacity, you are not allowed to provide first aid training to members or the general public. 

See 60-3.

[CAPAPRN]

Are you referring to 124-f which prohibits the providing of care (e.g. a doctor-patient relationship is established). Because I am not sure (although I do not have the entire document memorized) I agree.  Training is most definitely not a provision of care, and when you are trained by the ARC you are covered by them - just regurge the material. In fact I am pretty sure CAP encourage HSO's who are ARC or AHA instructors to do CPR classes for CAP members- would seem the liability (civilian or CAP students) would be exactly the same. None. The training specifically tells you you can only perform those things you are fully competent at. The card even states it only verifies you took the course- nothing more No one that I know of in the history of CPR has ever sued the instructor- they sue the performer (in fact as the patient has no relationship with the instructor most states provide no right to sue the instructor due to lack of standing. So while I am still not interested in using my limited resources doing a community class, I am not clear why the class would be prohibited anymore than an aerospace education teacher giving a demo class. They are both educational activities, potential recruitment activities etc.,  not the provision of medical care. Now I will log off, let everyone rip me to shreds and tell all of CAP talk why a Navy vet with 4 college degrees who is the VP of the medical staff at a state VA, an Assoc Prof. at Yale and a part time hospitalist cant play golf (extra credit if you can figure out what that means)

[Eclipse]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require
that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

I can't begin to imagine how anyone could read that, and other regs related to this issue and think that it would still be OK for a CAP member, acting as such,
to provide any direct instruction to the general public.  I guarantee the JA's would put a stop to that in the first sentence, and I have personally confirmed
with both the OPS Directorate who consulted the General Counsel that CAP is not allowed to provide any operational or ES training to non-members.

We've had people assert that it is "perfectly OK for members who are also FA instructors to provide their members the training while in uniform".  I assert that
it isn't, and those around me who fall into that category agree, but there will always be someone willing to risk the organization's liability and name just to "do what they will".

Now, to bring this huge drift semi-back to the line, I will say that on more then one occasion I have witnessed members being decorated for actions which
others would consider termination-level issues, so in Lordmonor's example, it would not surprise me one bit if someone wound up with a dec for doing it.

Just to be clear - if a unit CC wants to have a day of community outreach and connect an FA instructor to the general public, good on him.  If he stands at the
front of the room providing the instruction, then he's risking "accelerated separation".

[lordmonar]

60-3 makes it clear?   

Sorry.....you were asked for a cite.....clear would indicate a paragraph reference.

[SarDragon]

Here's the quote:

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

That's not the same as "goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. " [Emphasis mine]

That said, the last two First Aid/CPR classes I took were taught by a CAP member, under the auspices of an external agency. He signed the cards as a member of that agency, NOT as a CAP member.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I personally do not feel it prohibits me from teaching CAP units First Aid in uniform. My records are still kept by my AHA training center. And "provided by an outside agency" can be interpreted as "instructor preparation." My squadron knows I am an AHA instructor. They ask me for a class. I come that day in mufti or with a shirt that says "AHA Instructor." I have not stopped being a CAP member.

Until regulations are so clear to state "no CAP member who happens to be an instructor shall teach these classes" will this debate go away.

However, you know what will happen? Since now we would have to go to another resource for these classes, most members will be charged the full price of the class. That is to include the actual per-hour instructor pay. Right now I would teach a First Aid class for the price of the manual, card, and materials for about $30 per person to CAP members. Versus the actual price of $75 charged to those outside.

Why don't we hear from Ned on this issue?

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities.

I think this is open to interpretation. CAPR 60-3 clearly states that CAP "will not be the primary provider...", but that "qualified personnel can be used to support such activities." The way I read this in reference to First Aid training is that CAP as an organization cannot provide training and/or issue a card or certificate. A CAP member who is a qualified First Aid instructor with ARC, for example, can be used to provide such training. The First Aid card would be issued by ARC, not CAP. Whether a CAP unit organizes the training, provides its facilities, or the instructor wears his CAP uniform while teaching is not really addressed by this regulation. The only thing that's clear is that CAP is not providing this training as a primary provider, but supporting it. I don't see the conflict here.

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency. [emphasis mine]

"Normally" means most of the time, but not always. In this context, CAP could provide, facilitate or coordinate this training.

[Eclipse]

We did this dance in another thread.

Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".  It blurs the line between the organizations to the value of neither.

[lordmonar]

We did this dance in another thread.

Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".  It blurs the line between the organizations to the value of neither.

And that's a 2b offense?

[starshippe]

   seems as though it would be possible to get a find, a save, and a sortie towards an air sar ribbon, all in one sortie.

bill

[johnnyb47]

Just a non-authoritative blurb of info as it's only in KB, but I found it interesting that KB actually suggests members become instructors to save units money on first aid training:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/90/kw/first%20aid%20training/related/1

I found that a while back when I was researching first aid training options.

[Eclipse]

We did this dance in another thread.

Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".  It blurs the line between the organizations to the value of neither.

And that's a 2b offense?

Is there really any point in pursuing this part of the conversation? 

The above is not.  The situation you indicated the first time certainly would be.  It's one thing to ride the line and provide
instruction to fellow members and make sure they understand that your capacity id for the AHA (or whatever) and not CAP,
but not to the general public.

I would absolutely discipline anyone under my command for providing direct FA instruction to the general public in a CAP uniform.

[Eclipse]

Just a non-authoritative blurb of info as it's only in KB, but I found it interesting that KB actually suggests members become instructors to save units money on first aid training:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/90/kw/first%20aid%20training/related/1

I found that a while back when I was researching first aid training options.

That's what we did.  In fact in two cases we actually paid the training costs for two people to get certified.
One left for another wing 6 months later, which was awesome.

[Ned]

Why don't we hear from Ned on this issue?

Flyer

Luis,

Mostly because I don't have anything helpful or definative to add.

My reading of the reg indicates that under some circumstances CAP members may provide FA, CPR, etc instruction to members and others.  Indeed, I think that is the way the great majority of my FA and CPR training has been done -- by "dual-hatted" members who taught in their ARC/AHA/Fire Dept capacities while saving me money. 

But I also agree that our doctrine prefers outside providers give the training where reasonably possible.

And I also agree that the regs and Knowledgebase are fuzzy and less than definative.  Somebody probably needs to form a committee and harmonize everything.

Please, Lord, let that be a dynamic and interesting committee of dedicated and knowledgeable members.

That does not include me.

As always, thank you for your service, sir.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ned-

Thank you for posting your views on this issue.

Flyer

[Mustang]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

Bob, your ability to misread regs is unequaled.  The first half of your sentence is simply untrue. Para. 1-24f says we cannot provide medical *services* on missions or training events. It says NOTHING about proving medical TRAINING.  Providing CPR/AED *training* is not the same as providing medical *services*.

Your original post is also wrong. As someone pointed out, unit honors and individual decorations are not the same thing. Earlier this month, my wing was awarded a National Commander's Unit Citation for its support of a project I managed--for which I received a DSA. I am authorized both.

[Eclipse]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

Bob, your ability to misread regs is unequaled.  The first half of your sentence is simply untrue. Para. 1-24f says we cannot provide medical *services* on missions or training events. It says NOTHING about proving medical TRAINING.  Providing CPR/AED *training* is not the same as providing medical *services*.

You're really going to try and make the argument that while we can't train our members in FA, we can train the general public?

[lordmonar]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

Bob, your ability to misread regs is unequaled.  The first half of your sentence is simply untrue. Para. 1-24f says we cannot provide medical *services* on missions or training events. It says NOTHING about proving medical TRAINING.  Providing CPR/AED *training* is not the same as providing medical *services*.

You're really going to try and make the argument that while we can't train our members in FA, we can train the general public?

Who says we can't train our members in First Aid?

[Eclipse]

Who says we can't train our members in First Aid?

60-3, NHQ, the JA's, and the Ops Directorate.  All of which are clear that this training must be provided by, certified, and tracked by a card-issuing agency (as well as regularly renewed). 

No, medical professionals who are members are >not< allowed to do First Aid training for members, nor is the local fire department, or "my mom who is a nurse".
Nor are instructors from certifying agencies allowed to provide the instruction outside those other programs rules (i.e. for free), as this violates the instructor agreements
of those programs.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not true.

Not for free but for a reduced fee.

The only thing my instructor agreement requires is a card and book per trainee. That comes to between $25 and $30. The other cost is for materials - gauze, bandages, and Epi trainer in case of First Aid, and maniquin and AED rental in the case of CPR.

That cost versus the cost of a third-party external provider agency who has to now pay an instructor hours.

Do you want me to scan this instructor agreement? The way you post this, iot seems to me you have never seen an AHA instructor agreement.

AHA does the same thing with nurses and physicians who provide this training in their home institution. For instance, Hospital X sends her lead instructor to be certified as an AHA instructor. She becomes instructor, teaches CPR according to AHA rules. Again paying only for the card and the book. If they have maniquins they use their own. This is not different than what we are discussing here. In the case of a hospital, AHA makes another concession. In some cases a hospital may make an AHA training library.

When I was teaching under Red Cross rules there was a similar agreement.

Flyer

[Devil Doc]

I teach Cadets and Adults FA all the time. Am I certified? I stayed at a Holiday Inn Once, I do have UnParralleled Experience. Just becaus ei Teach FA does not mean they are Certified in FA

[Eclipse]

I teach Cadets and Adults FA all the time. Am I certified? I stayed at a Holiday Inn Once, I do have UnParralleled Experience. Just becaus ei Teach FA does not mean they are Certified in FA

Not really what we are discussing, but muddies the conversation nicely.

[Eclipse]

Not true.

Not for free but for a reduced fee.

The only thing my instructor agreement requires is a card and book per trainee. That comes to between $25 and $30. The other cost is for materials - gauze, bandages, and Epi trainer in case of First Aid, and maniquin and AED rental in the case of CPR.

That cost versus the cost of a third-party external provider agency who has to now pay an instructor hours.

Do you want me to scan this instructor agreement? The way you post this, iot seems to me you have never seen an AHA instructor agreement.

AHA does the same thing with nurses and physicians who provide this training in their home institution. For instance, Hospital X sends her lead instructor to be certified as an AHA instructor. She becomes instructor, teaches CPR according to AHA rules. Again paying only for the card and the book. If they have maniquins they use their own. This is not different than what we are discussing here. In the case of a hospital, AHA makes another concession. In some cases a hospital may make an AHA training library.

When I was teaching under Red Cross rules there was a similar agreement.

Flyer

Again, tangential to the point, making the conversation less clear.

Not only have I read the agreements, I have have had discussions with these agencies, NHQ, various instructors, and other involved in attempts to find the most direct, least expensive route
to this training for my members, while still meeting the letter and spirit of the regs,  including paying to have instructors certified.  We have several in my wing who are able to provide
First Aid for about $10-15 per student depending on the certifying agency. 

The point I was trying to make has nothing to do with the dollar cost and everything to do with the state of the regulations.

And for the record, I find it completely ridiculous, couterproductive, but not at all surprising, that national solicits medical professionals as "valued members" and then prohibits them
from using the very skills that make them valuable.  Considering the stance that we are not a medical provider, 911 is supposed to be the >first< thing we do in a medical emergency,
and the majority of care is self and buddy care, there's no reason at all why we could not do internal basic first aid training for our members, just as the BSA and similar organizations
do today.  But until something changes, that's the state of the regs.

[Devil Doc]

And for the record, I find it completely ridiculous, couterproductive, but not at all surprising, that national solicits medical professionals as "valued members" and then prohibits them
from using the very skills that make them valuable.  Considering the stance that we are not a medical provider, 911 is supposed to be the >first< thing we do in a medical emergency,
and the majority of care is self and buddy care, there's no reason at all why we could not do internal basic first aid training for our members, just as the BSA and similar organizations
do today.  But until something changes, that's the state of the regs.

Makes since to me, Why is National So Afraid of us Using First aid or Learning First Aid. I mean jeez, you would think they would love to have a nurse, provider, emt on there team,  but yet barres them from using there skill.

[Eclipse]

Makes since to me, Why is National So Afraid of us Using First aid or Learning First Aid. I mean jeez, you would think they would love to have a nurse, provider, emt on there team,  but yet barres them from using there skill.

Well-intentioned lawyers + member bad behavior = "where we are today".

It's hard to make the case for relaxing or changing things when we have members in high-visibility situations who can't even follow basic, simple rules.
If I were a CAP lawyer, the first time I saw a cadet with a stethoscope at an encampment or similar activity, where we aren't even supposed to be
involved in medical care at all, would be the last time I was interested in that conversation for a long time.

[jimmydeanno]

All of which are clear that this training must be provided by, certified, and tracked by a card-issuing agency (as well as regularly renewed).

I'm not arguing for or against this, but you keep using the word "clear" but I have yet to see a citation or written statement put up that -clearly- states what you are arguing.  Only you saying that they say it clearly.  Nobody else seems to be able to find these clear citations or regulatory statements that you are referencing.

[JayT]

And for the record, I find it completely ridiculous, couterproductive, but not at all surprising, that national solicits medical professionals as "valued members" and then prohibits them
from using the very skills that make them valuable.  Considering the stance that we are not a medical provider, 911 is supposed to be the >first< thing we do in a medical emergency,
and the majority of care is self and buddy care, there's no reason at all why we could not do internal basic first aid training for our members, just as the BSA and similar organizations
do today.  But until something changes, that's the state of the regs.

Makes since to me, Why is National So Afraid of us Using First aid or Learning First Aid. I mean jeez, you would think they would love to have a nurse, provider, emt on there team,  but yet barres them from using there skill.

Because as a civilian EMS paramedic, I operate under a very specific set of rules and regulations that change even from agency to agency (depending on who's uniform I'm in, I can be standing in the same spot and operate under two very different sets of protocols between my full time job and my part time job.) Those regulations do not make me a independent provider. A nurse is not an independent provider. A PA is not an independent provider. For a civilian EMT or Paramedic to operate in CAP, CAP would have to have an extensive system of medical direction an oversight that, frankly, is not needed. CAP just isn't the agency that's swooping in to 'save' an injured pilot crawling out of his wrecked Cessna. That's a fantasy.

I don't believe the regulations state 'Let your buddy bleed to death' in the one in a million chance that's the case, but if you decide to be a hero and drop a line and do elective bilateral needle thoracostomies and a cric, that's all on you. And have fun explaining to a judge and a jury of your peers why you practiced medicine without proper oversight or an independent license. 

[SarDragon]

Just to repeat:

Here's the quote:

Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies. For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

That's not the same as "goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. " [Emphasis mine]

That said, the last two First Aid/CPR classes I took were taught by a CAP member, under the auspices of an external agency. He signed the cards as a member of that agency, NOT as a CAP member.

Requirement - no. Expectation - yes.

Fundamentally, I agree with Bob. We shouldn't be doing this training under the auspices of, or as representatives of, CAP. I disagree that we are specifically prohibited.

YMMV. Notary sojac. *Batteries not included.