New CAP Chaplain uniform?

[Pumbaa]

Interesting that the link was cut from the main page, but I still get it on the RSS feed.  it is still on the site.

BTW I thought it looked sharp... Now I would be willingto dish out some $$ for that

[lordmonar]

It's not the most responsible work by a PAO, I'd grant that, but it's not that big a deal if they wanted them in the "gamespace" simulating the role of a chaplain they'll be meeting up with in-country, or perhaps more likely is advising & counseling on how to interact with other cultures & religions.

they could have done that just as well if not better in their CAP uniforms.  Dissimmular training is more effective in that type of scenrio.

[A.Member]

Interesting that the link was cut from the main page, but I still get it on the RSS feed.  it is still on the site.

BTW I thought it looked sharp... Now I would be willingto dish out some $$ for that

At a very minimum, the URL (article) should be placed back on the main page without the pictures.  It's not freakin' hard to do. 

[Chaplaindon]

Friends as a 25-year+ paramedic, I recall a saying used to describe patient assessment, "If it looks like a horse, and walks like a horse, it's probably a horse ... BUT ... don't forget about a zebra."

As we have ever-so-little hard evidence from which to draw a cogent conclusion, I suggest that we all just enjoy how good the ACU and "U.S. AIR FORCE AUX" namestrip look. Enjoy the moment -- and PERHAPS a NHQ PAO slip up.

That having been said, I am suspecting a Zebra in this case.

For my "money" this looks situation too planned and prepared. Perfectly prepared ACUs and so forth. To my mind this didn't JUST happen.

I suspect --with caution (looking for zebras as well as wild horses)-- that this was a low-profile "special customer" mission/operation/project and the uniforms were prospectively approved (pehaps as high as the BoG). Pictures just weren't to have been posted by the chaplain or NHQ/PAO.

As such it would not be unlike the special CD missions flown by "customer's specific request" by flight crews in civies.

Anything's possible.

Whatever it is, I'm enjoying the moment ... where do I order my ACU???

[Nick]

Just a little toss-in about the whole objection to battle rattle ... I was recently at a combat sustainment training exercise where we were joined by services, medical and chaplain personnel.  The services folks were in the kitchen wearing their aprons, cooking. The medical folks were in the field and the aid station toting all their medical gear. The chaplains were attached to the field units, chaplaining. Guess what they were wearing? Yup ... Kevlar helmets, LBVs, MILES gear, everything short of a weapon (granted the Kevlars were because of riding in 2 1/2-5 tons). And since they didn't have chaplain assistants with them, we were the ones providing their security to ensure they didn't get "killed" through the MILES.

So, take that situation and apply it here -- if you have a CAP chaplain serving in an augmentation capacity with a military service, and they're issued all the equipment same as everything else, why not use it?

[RiverAux]

Sorry RiverAux,

It just isn't the same.

The wording is distinctly different --and thus NOT redundant-- §9442 (b)1 states, "The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force."

§9446 states DISTINCTLY, "The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under conditions that the Secretary deems appropriate."

They may appear similar but they are different. One noteworthy deletion/omission is the phrase "... noncombat programs and missions ..." CAPR 265-1 (1)b adds CAP NHQ wording mentioning "... domestic, non-combat ministry ..."

How exactly is having the Chaplains help the NG any different at all than a CAP member stuffing envelopes for a recruiter or any of the other possible augmentation roles that we've discussed as possibilities for CAP members?  They are ALL non-combat support of the AF.  Chaplains could already do that under the existing language.

The only difference is that the AF has made specific allowances in their own internal regulations that make it clear how CAP chaplains can participate in the program whereas they haven't for other potential CAP augmentation missions.  The law is redundant, but the AF regs are much clearer for chaplains since they have received special treatment. 

[Chaplaindon]

RiverAux ...

Here I must "agree to disagree" with you on this matter. I shall do so, however, agreeably.

[lordmonar]

Just a little toss-in about the whole objection to battle rattle ... I was recently at a combat sustainment training exercise where we were joined by services, medical and chaplain personnel.  The services folks were in the kitchen wearing their aprons, cooking. The medical folks were in the field and the aid station toting all their medical gear. The chaplains were attached to the field units, chaplaining. Guess what they were wearing? Yup ... Kevlar helmets, LBVs, MILES gear, everything short of a weapon (granted the Kevlars were because of riding in 2 1/2-5 tons). And since they didn't have chaplain assistants with them, we were the ones providing their security to ensure they didn't get "killed" through the MILES.

So, take that situation and apply it here -- if you have a CAP chaplain serving in an augmentation capacity with a military service, and they're issued all the equipment same as everything else, why not use it?

I'm not even complaining about the battle rattle.  If we get asked to support the military battle rattle may be necessar for safety and standardisation reasons.  Army has rule some rules about riding in armored vehilces and soft top humvees that would make battle rattle a necessity.

But you can wear battle rattle in your CAP BDUs just as easy as ACUs with USAF-AUX on them.

+Plus it's cool to play army ever now and then!

[LtCol White]

Why do we keep arguing this point back and forth? Clearly, the work is good. We all agree.

Obviously NHQ is aware and sanctions it otherwise the pics and article wouldn't be on the website. If they had a prob with the ACU's and the combat equip, they would not have printed the pics and run it as a text article only.

Who knows what work went into setting it up and what uniform requirements were made and agreed upon. Only those involved which means it makes no sense for us to argue it back and forth.

Geez

[RiverAux]

Obviously NHQ is aware and sanctions it otherwise the pics and article wouldn't be on the website. If they had a prob with the ACU's and the combat equip, they would not have printed the pics and run it as a text article only

Well, they actually have made a somewhat sloppy attempt to take the story down so evidently they aren't on board with something -- most likely the photos. 

I don't think there is any problem with the equipment.  There aren't any CAP regulations prohibiting that sort of stuff from being worn. 

[Chappie]

How exactly is having the Chaplains help the NG any different at all than a CAP member stuffing envelopes for a recruiter or any of the other possible augmentation roles that we've discussed as possibilities for CAP members?  They are ALL non-combat support of the AF.  Chaplains could already do that under the existing language.

The only difference is that the AF has made specific allowances in their own internal regulations that make it clear how CAP chaplains can participate in the program whereas they haven't for other potential CAP augmentation missions.  The law is redundant, but the AF regs are much clearer for chaplains since they have received special treatment. 

River Aux...the difference is simple....CAP Chaplains fulfill the same responsibilities as the base/wing chaplain.  On many occasions when active/reserve chaplains have been deployed, CAP Chaplains have been called upon to fulfill the "homeside" duties.  Conducting worship services for the military personnel/families, counseling, flightline/hospital visitation, officiating weddings/funerals, and other ministerial/chaplain duties is vastly different and requires specialized than a CAP member stuffing envelopes.  

The uniform issue aside....there are several CAP Chaplains who train with and minister to National Guard units as well as USAF ANG/active and reserve units.    In the CAWG, there is an outstanding model of CAP/USAF Chaplain Service working together at Travis AFB.  The PCR HC serves a National Guard unit...he trains with a regular basis.   As pointed out in a previous post, the specialty insignia that the CAP Chaplain is exactly the same as that of the USAF Chaplain.  I don't believe another specialty in CAP has that same distinction.  The reason for that has also been posted:  CAP Chaplains must meet the same academic and ecclesiastical endorsement requirements as those who serve either as an active or reserve USAF Chaplain.

Tags - MIKE

[fyrfitrmedic]

 Perhaps the attempt to take it down was as a result of nitpicking, conspiracy theories, or whatever else is brewing out in CAPland?  

[RiverAux]

River Aux...the difference is simple....CAP Chaplains fulfill the same responsibilities as the base/wing chaplain.  On many occasions when active/reserve chaplains have been deployed, CAP Chaplains have been called upon to fulfill the "homeside" duties.  Conducting worship services for the military personnel/families, counseling, flightline/hospital visitation, officiating weddings/funerals, and other ministerial/chaplain duties is vastly different and requires specialized than a CAP member stuffing envelopes. 

So, under this theory if the AF were to request a CAP PAO to assist in the base PA office, it would literally take an act of Congress since this is not providing non-combat support to the AF as authorized by federal law? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

If the chaplains are not in any authorized CAP uniform, and one of them were to be hurt, does CAP pay, or does the Army?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Take a look at this......

http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2007/03/cap_news_online.html

Civil Air Patrol Officers attached to Airmy Units to aid in Deployment Preperation.....

Look at the Uniform Pics...

Yes those are ACU's and Yes it says US AIR FORCE AUX.

This look kicks ass!!

Thanks to CAPBlog and Midway Six.

[MIKE]

Topics merged.

[lordmonar]

River Aux...the difference is simple....CAP Chaplains fulfill the same responsibilities as the base/wing chaplain.  On many occasions when active/reserve chaplains have been deployed, CAP Chaplains have been called upon to fulfill the "homeside" duties.  Conducting worship services for the military personnel/families, counseling, flightline/hospital visitation, officiating weddings/funerals, and other ministerial/chaplain duties is vastly different and requires specialized than a CAP member stuffing envelopes. 

So, under this theory if the AF were to request a CAP PAO to assist in the base PA office, it would literally take an act of Congress since this is not providing non-combat support to the AF as authorized by federal law? 

The difference being....CAP could be tasked to do PAO (or any other non-combat duty) work for the USAF...but individual Chaplains could be tasked to work for the USAF.

In theory Chaplains could be called onto active duty if needed where no one else in CAP could.

[RiverAux]

Oh, c'mon that is a distinction without any difference at all. 

[lordmonar]

Oh, c'mon that is a distinction without any difference at all. 

No it's a big difference....CAP can be tasked with any non combat duties that the SECAF chooses...but he cannot task individuals.....except chaplains.

It is sort of like the federalizing of the NG.  The president can call up entire units but not individuals with out the Gov's approval.

[RiverAux]

Well, it is very interesting to me that we have had pages and pages and pages of discussion of CAP augmentation to the AF and this particular legal theory was never presented. 

When it comes right down to it, the AF would have the final say in exactly which individuals augmented at AF units in any case.  Lets use public affairs for example.  If the AF puts in an official request to CAP for PAO support and the Wing sends over 3 PAOs.  The AF folks would meet with them, examine their work, and would send home whoever they didn't like or whoever they didn't think could do the job that needed to be done. 

The same process would undoubtedly occur in any other CAP augmention program that we've discussed (legal, medical, other professional, or other misc. jobs).  So, the AF would have final say over which CAP members worked at their units in any case.