2013 National Cadet Competition?

[SKI304]

Has anyone heard, if, when, or where the 2013 NCC will be held?  There's still nothing on the ncsas.com website and with summer arriving soon (at least the planning stages for it), cadets and seniors are starting to plan other activities, vacations, etc. which could pose a huge problem to those competing or staffing.  Any info is appreciated!

[Eclipse]

Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio June 20-June 25

Tentatively 17 - 21 July,   Dayton OH.

[a2capt]

Not moving from Wright State again, that's unprecedented, as they usually move it every two years.

Though I must say, I got the impression that NCC happening at the same time as encampment was pretty convenient for them.. 

[Eclipse]

My info comes from OHWG's NCC page.  No reason to believe it's wrong, but I would not buy non-refundable tickets
based on just this.

[SKI304]

Not that I don't trust you, Eclipse, but could you let me know where you got the info?  NCC is usually a Wednesday-Sunday event, and those dates are Thursday-Tuesday. -edit- saw that you quoted that during my reply.  The info on our Wing website never got changed from last year. -edit-

As for NCC being the same time as encampment?  It was never intentional and has been a huge inconvenience for our wing.  Providing logistical support and vehicles to two large scale activities occurring at the same time and place is a nightmare.  Not to mention all the missed opportunities to those members that have to decide if they will support Encampment or NCC.  It was a big factor in why OHWG Encampment was pushed back to late July/early August this year.  The only nice thing last year was that we finally had some people to watch or even be aware that there was a Drill Team from Ohio.

[Eclipse]

Ignore.  It looks like those dates are all incorrect.

[a2capt]

Wednesday to Sunday, except for last year, where they crammed it all down to end on Saturday. I hope they learned from last year's experiment in cost cutting ..  Too much, too fast.  Some of the van rides to the airport on Sunday morning.. were a little exciting.

As from the NCC participants point of view, it certainly felt "convenient" that the facility, already booked for, and in use, just had a few more people there at the same time. Since contracting for the meals, rooms, etc, usually comes at a better price, the more you buy.

As for conflicting events and scheduling. I can certainly appreciate that. I had to balance between participating in another  Wing's encampment against the possibility of advancing to NCC and having to cut out on one or the other had there been a conflict. Fortunately in the end, Hawaii's encampment ended up being earlier in June. That made for a long Summer, starting in April with the region cadet competition, encampment at the beginning of June, and my annual Summer 3 week road trip shortly after NCC.

Since NCC's FB page hasn't changed, and the NCC site normally linked to from the NCSAS listings, as well as http://nationalcadetcompetition.com has not changed .. I'm inclined to believe it's still being worked out, though it usually has been announced shortly, at least in the 1st year of the changed location.

[Eclipse]

OK - Actual information from GLR.

"Tentatively" 17 - 21 July,   Dayton OH.

[Paul Creed III]

The Ohio Wing Cadet Competition website now reflects the most accurate dates that are currently available.

[a2capt]

Wow, that's late in the Summer this time.
I wonder what the drive behind that is/was.. 

[SKI304]

-Bump-

Has anyone heard anything about NCC yet?   The website is still sparse and any details have all been third-hand.  With less than two weeks until the big show I'm getting concerned since nothing has gone out (at least to our team) regarding travel, schedule, paperwork, special training requirements, etc.

[a2capt]

Even the wikipedia page has just a tad more information, though it's of course, subject to being right .. or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Air_Patrol_National_Cadet_Competition

From what I've gathered so far, the competition is at WSU and SHS like the last two years, though the staff and recommended hotel is several miles away, rather than one of the typical locations along Col. Glenn Highway, that are -much- closer, and priced very similarly.

I've been hoping for a schedule to be posted like years past, but what I see instead was the web site wiped clean and originally replaced with "the dates have been published", and more recently, a few sentences added.

The activity page had a plethora of stuff on it, and compared to last years huge outreach attempt, this time around even information to participants was slim to none.

It's obvious things are going to change. But you're not supposed to find this out hearsay from your cadets that return from CLA. The straight poop from the official channel would be nice. Assembling rumors, matching them up to what you do know is happening.. is frustrating.

For parents coming to see the competition, who knows where to go? All of that was posted previously.

The teams arrive on Wednesday, and the competition is Thursday and Friday, with awards announced Friday evening, and return flights are Saturday morning onward. No formal banquet. The awards will be done in conjunction with the traditional less formal picnic. No museum scavenger hunt.

Teams will be shuttled around, vans will not be issued, though I've heard some instances of individuals renting vans themselves.

I can only figure that the lack of mentioning the need for RST is that the activity is less than 4 nights, and therefore it's not required. Though no ORM sheet from the team was asked for yet, either, that I've seen.

I realize the whole budget situation is pretty depressing, but quite honestly, so has dealing with NHQ. On several issues I've followed the instructions, made inquiries, and heard -nothing- over the past several months. Absolutely frustrating.

[PA Guy]

Perhaps your frustration is due to the fact that the entire CP section at NHQ consists of two people dealing with severe budget cuts for all national activities including NCC.  Add to this the cuts to CAP/USAF which funds the reservists that provide support to many national activities and all activities are having a hard time this year.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps your frustration is due to the fact that the entire CP section at NHQ consists of two people dealing with severe budget cuts for all national activities including NCC.  Add to this the cuts to CAP/USAF which funds the reservists that provide support to many national activities and all activities are having a hard time this year.

Hmm...too bad.

Maybe if we had a few people volunteer they could help.  Oh well.

[arajca]

Perhaps your frustration is due to the fact that the entire CP section at NHQ consists of two people dealing with severe budget cuts for all national activities including NCC.  Add to this the cuts to CAP/USAF which funds the reservists that provide support to many national activities and all activities are having a hard time this year.

Hmm...too bad.

Maybe if we had a few people volunteer they could help.  Oh well.

Maybe if National would accept volunteer help...

[PHall]

Perhaps your frustration is due to the fact that the entire CP section at NHQ consists of two people dealing with severe budget cuts for all national activities including NCC.  Add to this the cuts to CAP/USAF which funds the reservists that provide support to many national activities and all activities are having a hard time this year.

Hmm...too bad.

Maybe if we had a few people volunteer they could help.  Oh well.

Maybe if National would accept volunteer help...

They've had problems in the past with volunteers.

[Eclipse]

It would certainly make things easier if they all just went away...

[PHall]

It would certainly make things easier if they all just went away...

No, just the "volunteers" with agendas...

[PA Guy]

It would certainly make things easier if they all just went away...

Who, volunteers or NHQ?

[a2capt]

In the end, even having a Wing Commander inquire about TLC curriculum materials was met with a lack of reply. That was just one case. I gave up.

As for the travel arrangements, tickets, and such. Our team got their stuff two weeks ago. I'd really have to figure that by now you should have your arrangements down. I see that you're from Ohio, seeing that it's at WSU, maybe they're expecting you to drive and think they told you "Wednesday afternoon, show up."

[SKI304]

In the end, even having a Wing Commander inquire about TLC curriculum materials was met with a lack of reply. That was just one case. I gave up.

As for the travel arrangements, tickets, and such. Our team got their stuff two weeks ago. I'd really have to figure that by now you should have your arrangements down. I see that you're from Ohio, seeing that it's at WSU, maybe they're expecting you to drive and think they told you "Wednesday afternoon, show up."

You're right, we are driving so there's no arrangements (that we know of) that we need to make with NHQ.  I was more looking for what time and exactly where we're supposed to show up and leave.  Being that they were talking of cutting more costs, who knows if we'll be at the cheaper dorms on the other side of the ravine in lieu of the Honors Dorms.  All things aside, I'm a little relieved in knowing that other teams are not getting information and we aren't just being forgotten.   This year certainly feels "different."  Typically the month before NCC is regular back and forth communications between the staff and teams.  This year, I have gotten zero official communications and we're now nine days away.  The request for our roster was through our Squadron Commander who is the NCC PAO this year.  I won't put him in a conflict of interest by asking for further information that hasn't gone out to the other teams.    At the same time, I've got lots of parents asking me when events are so that they can schedule time off.  Hate to keep them waiting or make them have to miss out.  Here's hoping some stuff comes out soon...

[a2capt]

Our flights arrive at 15:45 on Wednesday, and they're sending transportation to the airport.

A schedule has been posted to the NCSA site.

The written test, mile run and panel quiz are at Stebbins High School, and everything else is at WSU. (Drill Team volleyball at Nutter Center)

It says 15:00 for Safety/In-Brief, at Stebbins, and 18:00 for Written.

They are recommending that Ramada Inn at $85/night if you say "cadet competition", if you use the CAP discount code for Wyndham, you actually get a better deal (last I looked/booked). There's also stuff that's in the low $60 range at the other end of Col. Glenn Highway, usable with the same discount code.

http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/member_benefits/travel_discounts/wyndham_hotels/
Corporate Code # 1000008946

[Eclipse]

...and?

No word before.

No word after.

I wonder why we can't get more interest?

[Paul Creed III]

https://www.facebook.com/NationalCadetCompetition

[Майор Хаткевич]

No word on the official CAP website?

[Eclipse]

No word on the official CAP website?

None that I can find.

[PHall]

Got an e-mail from our Wing Commander about how our (CAWG) Drill Team and Color Guard did.
But there is a Facebook page.

[a2capt]

A couple years one of the cadets from the winning team came on here and asked who won NCC that year .. and got no answer at all.

Yeah, sad. The cadets have such a great time.

[JeffDG]

Got an e-mail from our Wing Commander about how our (CAWG) Drill Team and Color Guard did.
But there is a Facebook page.

Same here, got one that TNWG/SER had won the Drill Team, but nothing official.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So what's the story on CO-winners this year?

[a2capt]

Judging mistakes, and mile run foulups.  citing lack of instruction, though the timer chips for the run were distributed in envelopes with individual names on them, it seems they were installed on "just any cadet" within the team. So the female 90 second credit, and the dropping the alternate from the actual tally, was not able to be done in one or two team cases, even though there's video evidence that they could collectively agree to go back and use, to establish the result.

Color Guard had similar other issues, not with the mile run though.

Judging has been not a strong point at all levels of the competition over the years and that's just one of the things you have to deal with, unfortunately.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Not that I have knowledge of how they do this, but...can't they just add up all the mile times from a team, minus 90 seconds (apparently that's something we do?) per female on team from the cumulative?

Again, I'm not quite sure how they do it that there is a problem, but a team total with a "female credit" per amount of females makes sense to me, and would be a lot easier to figure out than whatever their current issue is.

Edit: Apparently that's exactly how they do it...Not sure what the problem is.

d.The Mile Run time for all members of each team will be totaled (female times will beconverted to male times by subtracting 1½ minutes).The team with the lowest total time will be thewinner (see Attachment 9).

[a2capt]

 ..and the alternate time that should have not been counted. Did someone else run with the alternates chip? That puts ambiguity into the mix. Did the alternate then "run" for someone else?

But, yes, that's otherwise what they do.

Typically cadets pay attention to their run times, and the escorts time their people from the sidelines, too. We did ours, and the other teams, even though they were using RFID.  The result jived with what the results became. No issues there. But our cadets used the tags from the envelopes with their name on them. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

So lump in all the alternates

[a2capt]

That could actually change the outcome to yet another standing, and not every team has an alternate.

[Eclipse]

None of this is rocket science, why does it seem like it is so hard for us to simply be baseline proficient in even the simplest tasks?

[NIN]

Judging has been not a strong point at all levels of the competition over the years and that's just one of the things you have to deal with, unfortunately.

So either a) the events have become so complex that judging them fairly is difficult;
or b) they rules are written poorly; or c) the events aren't being managed correctly to inhibit errors (ie. not cross-checking to be sure the chips issued are on the person running/instructions that your alternate doesn't get to run just because he has a killer mile time but can't march worth a darn)

With the number of bodies that I understand NCC has as "staff" you'd think that at least c) could be eliminated.

[abdsp51]

IMHO being a CP guy the NCC should still take place but teams need to fundraise their way as much as possible.  What I think should happen is the unit sends a team to group to compete, group sends to wing, etc.  The kicker each echelon should be supporting the cost associated with it, but this in now way alleviates the repsonisbility of the team to fundraise to go.

The NCC should be a point for the best teams in the country with NCC determining the best.  PT, academics, inspection, and D&C should be the gradeable criteria.  If you are going to use a PT test as part of the scoring then ditch the volleyball aspect of it.  Combine the scores using a standardized criteria and press on.

Now with the above being said, drill teams do not need to hire professional "coaches", have custom tailored uniforms, or extra bling for NCC.  When I was in AFJROTC (yes I am well aware different program but the basics are the same for comp) we fielded a team of anywhere between 36-48 cadets depending on the year.  We practiced practiced and practiced and didn't do anything super extra for uniforms.  We added berets for some teams and my senior year we added USAF honor guard pants to the mix.  But for inpsection, and regulation drill which were the big determining factors and this considered of the basic uniform nothing tailored and our shoes were our issued leather low quarters, no patent leather allowed and we shined the hell out of them. 

Training for this needs to be done by hi-speed cadets who know the AFMAN inside and out and by the same caliber of SM who know the AFMAN inside and out. 

Culminate all this and you can have a well balanced dynamite NCC team.

[a2capt]

No, it's not that the alternate doesn't get to run. They do. Their time is not tallied into the team score unless it's determined that the alternate needs to step in at some point in the competition, and they would then have to remain in the competition until the end, and whoever they replaced would have their scores removed.

Except that .. really doesn't compound anything for the inspection, drill, volleyball, indoor, outdoor and panel quiz events, because those events are not scored in such a way that a particular performer's numbers can be tossed out. The only toss out only really effects the written exam.

Since the written exam is done first, (and the alternate takes the written exam, too, and is not tallied into the team score was well, unless..) and the mile run is done last...

The alternate's main purpose, of falling into play incase of an injury, physical being the best odds, and the activity likely to produce said injury being done last typically, pretty much rules out the use of the alternate.

However, the alternate also should be serving as extra eyes on the cadets for preparation, a time manager, an equipment manager, etc. Because the rules are that the senior members are not supposed to do stuff for the cadets except basically, supervise and drive the vehicle as needed, during the actual competition events, and with regards to preparing for them in the off times. So no sewing, ironing, etc. 

The alternates are also eligible to place in two individual award categories, so their scores are tallied individually, for the highest written exam and the fleet foot. There's highest written exam score for DT and CG, and there's Fleet foot for both female and male, in both DT and GC, so there's six spots that all could be won by alternates.

That is why the alternate running on someone elses tag causes a mess here, and someone on the alternates tag who's time didn't get included.  It can change the outcome. We're talking tenths of seconds in the case of RFID.

But as far as the team placement goes, those individual scores mean nothing in the rankings, and their performance otherwise is limited to a support role, which is absolutely every bit as valuable, and they do get the award, ribbon, cord, etc.

[abdsp51]

Sounds like the whole actitivty needs to be overhauled and simplified.

[Eclipse]

Sounds like the whole actitivty needs to be overhauled and simplified.

Not really an issue any more.