Reducing ribbons: A proposal

[lordmonar]

Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.

What about all the support personnel? IC, Section chiefs, MRO, CUL, etc?

The AF equiv says 24months continuous combat readiness as aircrew on a combat aircraft. Hence, I've excluded scanner, GTM, UDF, TMP, MRO, IC, etc. It's for maintaining field supervisory quals over the long hual. That incentivizes IC staff maintaining quals rather than trying to lead based on their field knowledge from 1975. I'm open minded about CUL though.

If you look at the Air Force regs youwill see that it says "weapon system".  The Combat Readiness Medal was created to give to the NUKE boys and girls.  So it was awarded to anyone who worked the nuclear deterence force as a "combat crew member".  This included the missle launch officers/NCOs, the bomber crews, command post personnel and communications operators.

When ACC absorbed SAC they expanded it to include ANY weapon system and the support personnel who operate those systems.  A AN/TRC-100A Tactical Satellite Terminal is considered part of the the command and control weapon system.

That is how I got my Combat Readiness Medal.  So by using that criteria....anyone who holds any ES position for 24 months should receive your new mission ready medal.

Also...it is slap in the face when you allow it for the top dogs and not the little guys.
Sure it is important to encourage people to "move up the ladder" of skill and responsibilty, but you disrespect those GTM3s, MROs, MSAs and all the others who do not make your cut.  The Air Force does not care what or how you support the weapon system....only that you in fact supported it.....heck our supply and admin guys got it!

Every job at the mission base is important fromt he MSA to the IC.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size...

You need to count cadets as well as seniors, unless you plan to make this a senior only award.

I'm fine with cadets getting it, but the same standards should be applied regardless of the person performing the action, not easier for cadets & harder for LtCols. And it should not be something tossed around like candy, just cause it can be awarded at the Sq/Gp level.

Recruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.

Having different standards for cadets and seniors for the same award doesn't make sense to me. How do handle the cadet who receives this award for meeting the minimum cadet requirements when they turn senior? Do they lose the award?

Requiring the tech rating for the ribbon doesn't seem right. There are many members who will meet the number requirements for bringing in new members, but for various reasons, not meet the tech requirements.[/quote]
I'm least decisive about the recruiting ribbon issues. I do think cadets should have an incentive to bring a couple people in, they are easily amused. For adults though, that's part of the gig. As far as it coming off when you go Sr, yes it would, right along with all your lower achievements, activity ribbons, model rocketry badge, solo wings, etc. Just like you don't keep JROTC ribbons when you go to college ROTC, and don't take college ribbons to the military with you. You need one ribbon (highest achievement) to show you were once a cadet, and that's it. The valor, merit, & mission awards stay, cause you earned those same as everyone else.
[/quote]

[Hawk200]

Rebuke earned, deserved, and accepted.  I should have said, "In my opinion, this is a solution in search of a problem, but you are doing some hard work" and recognized the effort that is going into the idea.  I may not agree with it -- heck, I don't -- but I can appreciate what is being discussed and offered. 

There are indeed times I should keep my mouth shut. 

The "in my opinion" part is the most pertinent point. Many people don't realize how it can be a little disconcerting when there is the appearance of someone saying "This idea is worthless, you shouldn't have brought it up." A statement of "I don't think this is really important" is a far different statement that doesn't have that kind of impact.

I am glad that you actually saw my post in the nature it was intended. I apologize for being harsh, but when I am subtle, I can't seem to get my point across. Maybe I'm overly diplomatic or just don't communicate well in a subtle manner, I don't know.

[Hawk200]

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size - under 20 active adults = 1 award, under 50=2, under 75=3, under 100=4. This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

If the intention is to draw paralells between CAP and Air Force ribbons is to be included, shouldn't we have similar requirements? The Air Force recognition ribbon is awarded for much higher than Sq or Gp. An excerpt from AFI 36-2803:

"Award to named individual recipients of Air Force-level special trophies and awards.  Refer to AFI 36-2805, Special Trophies and Awards, regarding awards eligible for the ribbon."

This is much higher than the levels mentioned. If we want to tell people that the CAP recognition ribbon is the CAP equivalent to an Air Force Recognition ribbon, don't we need to up the level a bit?

[ColonelJack]

[I am glad that you actually saw my post in the nature it was intended. I apologize for being harsh, but when I am subtle, I can't seem to get my point across. Maybe I'm overly diplomatic or just don't communicate well in a subtle manner, I don't know.

No worries, my friend.  Should we ever meet, the first round's on me.

Jack

[Hawk200]

[I am glad that you actually saw my post in the nature it was intended. I apologize for being harsh, but when I am subtle, I can't seem to get my point across. Maybe I'm overly diplomatic or just don't communicate well in a subtle manner, I don't know.

No worries, my friend.  Should we ever meet, the first round's on me.

Jack

As long as good food is involved, I can go for that.  A good beer is best accompanied by a good steak.

[DNall]

Also...it is slap in the face when you allow it for the top dogs and not the little guys.
Sure it is important to encourage people to "move up the ladder" of skill and responsibilty, but you disrespect those GTM3s, MROs, MSAs and all the others who do not make your cut.  The Air Force does not care what or how you support the weapon system....only that you in fact supported it.....heck our supply and admin guys got it!

I'm not cppying directly the AF standard. I'm taking their dec & what it's about then asking what similiar thing should there be in CAP & what should it cover.

The idea behind the standard I gave is that this not be a gimmie ribbon. I think you can agree GES doesn't count. Scanner, MRO, GTM3, MSA are all training positions. None of them is really capable of operating on their own. I could be convinced to include GTM 1 or MAYBE 2, but not 3, and frankly I think all of that is going to change with the NIMS stuff so I'm not worried about arguing the semantics. This isn't supposed to be complicatd to earn, but it is supposed to recoignize advanced or supervisory field skills maintained over the long term. It incentivizes reaching for the higher more useful rating, and the older hands maintaining their skills, even if they've converted to staff. Just my thoughts, it's debatable.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size... This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

If the intention is to draw paralells between CAP and Air Force ribbons is to be included, shouldn't we have similar requirements? The Air Force recognition ribbon is awarded for much higher than Sq or Gp. An excerpt from AFI 36-2803:

"Award to named individual recipients of Air Force-level special trophies and awards.  Refer to AFI 36-2805, Special Trophies and Awards, regarding awards eligible for the ribbon."

This is much higher than the levels mentioned. If we want to tell people that the CAP recognition ribbon is the CAP equivalent to an Air Force Recognition ribbon, don't we need to up the level a bit?

We have in the matrix a CAP "officer of the year" award which covers stuff like wing safety officer of the year, region PAO of the year, National senior member of the year.

Beyond that, yet it could be debated. The problem is the way our current merit awards are abused. When every level above Sq exists to support local operations, and what we really need is a way to pat people on the back & bump up their morale for the important things they do inside the Sq & Gp. Running a flashy Wg activity is nice, but it happens over a wknd & impacts a limited number of people in a limited way over that timespan. Take care of the field is that point.

If you want to reserve a CAP recognition ribbon to mean all those of the year awards, and the CAP officer of the year ribbon for just SM of the year at Wg, Reg, Nat. then that's fine, I can go along with that IF you can also come up with a system to make the current merit awards more fairly awarded across the spectrum & better available to aid local operations. Otherwise I don't think this is too much of a corrumption.

[lordmonar]

I'm not cppying directly the AF standard. I'm taking their dec & what it's about then asking what similiar thing should there be in CAP & what should it cover.

The idea behind the standard I gave is that this not be a gimmie ribbon. I think you can agree GES doesn't count. Scanner, MRO, GTM3, MSA are all training positions. None of them is really capable of operating on their own.

Wrong.  They are not trainee positions they are just worker bee positions.  No one is capable of operating on their own.  Even the IC is operating under the supervision of the wing commander.

MRO, GTM3 and MSA are all entry level positions and if you successful maintain your currancy for the required times you should get the same dinger as the "higher" positions.

You are begining to work against yourself here.  I though the idea was to more directly align CAP awards and ribbons with USAF.  Ergo if you start saying that this job is cool but  not this one...where the USAF does not.....then you are breaking the two apart and we should just go off on our own and make up our own ribbons.

[DNall]

I'm not trying to copy the AF, I'm trying to use them as a guide to a starting point from which you determine what to do on the CAP side. You have to ask if a dec is necessary, what it promotes, is it meaningful based on the award level, etc.

A cadet can get GTM3 qual'd in one day, GTM2 in a wknd, and never touch it again for three years & you think that warrants a ribbon? When I say capable of operating alone, I mean individually competent to do the job w/o constant supervision. This is not supposed to eb a ribbon you should see on many cadets. It should take four years to earn the first one (full qual & then three years holding it, CC's discretion on active in ES), then a clasp for each additional three years.

You might talk me into opening it up, the idea is that it kind of fills the whle where teh SaR ribbon was, but covers everything & represents training/readiness now that missions have dropped off.

[Hammer]

So if that CAP SM/USAF Officer takes said course, will it still count as his SOS/ACSC/AWC?

Yes of course, and joint PME credit if you are in another service. And a good way to get ahead too. It does check off the requirement box. You could still be offered a chance to go to the in-res later, especially if its been a while. SOS is the most dif from the in-res, & the eval that happens there is very inmportant to your future. ACSC & AWC are a lot closer in terms of content, but there is a dynamic in person with the extra resources at hand that you don't get, and of course selection is very competitive. Regardless, this is an opportunity you should use in such a situation cause it will really help you out down the road.

What must a CAP member do to take the coursed?  And can CAP members do the in-res versions too?

I think just add a "CAP Unit Commanders' Achievement Ribbon/Medal" and be done with it.  Let the Sq/CC be the awarding dude.  Let all unit commandwers be the person who awards it.  Either that or change the Commanders Commendation to be awarded by unit commanders.

Can we call it a CAP recognition ribbon? Though misnamed, the current CAP merit decs are basically right, just the one on bottom is missing, and that's the one that owuld be real helpful to encourage local performance.

That individual issue was going on in a seperate discussion a while back & is just getting tied in here with a big picture view.

Sure, just make the unit commander the awarding dude.

[RiverAux]

Seems like we have gone from reducing ribbons to adding new ones..... anyone done a count on the change in total ribbons CAP members could get if these suggestions were implemented? 

[DNall]

Net effect:
This adds 4 decs; eliminates 18 decs; & opens up 3-7 AF decs (not counting awards with a combat requirement)

At this point we're -10, plus whatever AF awards you want to list. What's more important is what is being taken away versus what is being added, and how much harder the added stuff is... the easiest thing on the list is Sq officer of the year, or three years coninuous qualification in a ES leadership position, stuff like that.

[DNall]

What must a CAP member do to take the coursed?  And can CAP members do the in-res versions too?
It's part of our PD program, you can sign up via your TCO or PD officer, which usually means they'll direct you to the AFIADL website & you can figure ou thow to fill out the forms. There's threads over in the membership area that better address that line of questioning. As to the in-res, the legal technical answer is we're allowed to attend any in-res course with open seats that we meet the security rating for, that doesn't cost the AF anything extra, and w/ permission from the course instructor & base commander; the practical real world answer is "no" yiu can't attend cause the in-res courses are expensive for them & always competitive & full. What you probably can get into are buddy aid, first aid, CPR, combat lifesaver, etc type courses that are pretty routine.

Seems like we have gone from reducing ribbons to adding new ones..... anyone done a count on the change in total ribbons CAP members could get if these suggestions were implemented? 

Cut 14, add 4, plus 3-7 AF... the more important thing is what is being cut versus what is being added back. The stuff slated to cut is repetitive & in some cases so easy it cheapens the rest of what you where. Most of what's added is about condensing that stuff, and in most cases is harder to earn.

[ColonelJack]

As long as good food is involved, I can go for that.  A good beer is best accompanied by a good steak.

Or a couple of great, well-laden footlong hot dogs at a Major League Baseball game.

Good food?  You're on.

Jack

[Hammer]

A question for you USCG Aux guys.  What USCG ribbons do USCG Aux guys routinely earn?

[MIKE]

A question for you USCG Aux guys.  What USCG ribbons do USCG Aux guys routinely earn?

See here.

Then there are the team awards that some get for working with the USCG.

[Hammer]

A question for you USCG Aux guys.  What USCG ribbons do USCG Aux guys routinely earn?

See here.

Then there are the team awards that some get for working with the USCG.

Thanks sir!  I just knew of the one CGUC for 9/11, and the CGPUC for Katrina.  Do USCG Aux members earn medals like the CG Commendation and Achievement as well as the CG Commandants Letter of Commendation?

[MIKE]

Do USCG Aux members earn medals like the CG Commendation and Achievement as well as the CG Commandants Letter of Commendation?

No... except for the gold and silver lifesaving medals and a few service ribbons.

Back on topic.