New Guy, Sort-Of...

[mnbnm]

Hello All.

I've been a member of CAP on and off since I was a cadet in '92. Because of my family's constant travels, I was always lapsing. Well, then I, too became a traveler with work, and same for me as a senior member. The comment/question is this:

I lapsed in 2003 the last time (as 2nd LT), and having just returned to the states, I want to get involved again. Having no "real" time yet to join a speicifc sqadron, I joined the "Patron" sqadron. I just got my ID today, and it shows SM. Is this correct? Do we lose the grade we achieved? Do I have to start over again?

Thanks.
-Mark

[arajca]

You need to have your commander submit paperwork to reinstate your former grade.

[mnbnm]

You need to have your commander submit paperwork to reinstate your former grade.

So, upon getting back into a functioning sqadron, sending in the fingerprints and application, he/she would attach something into the packet? That makes sense. Thank you for the quick reply.

[Camas]

Do I have to start over again?

If you've been out over two years you'll need to take Level One over again though you'll find it's now an entirely different course than it used to be. Re: CAPR 50-17 Para 3-1b.

You're entitled to your old grade subject to the approval of your commander though your time-in-grade starts all over again.  Re: CAPR 35-5 Para 18.

[DNall]

You're entitled to your old grade subject to the approval of your commander though your time-in-grade starts all over again.  Re: CAPR 35-5 Para 18.

Actually that's not entirely right. This is the section you're working from:

18. Former Members. A former member may be reinstated to the same grade held prior to voluntary membership termination, provided he or she qualifies for that grade under current criteria (including applicable senior member training criteria). A recommendation for such reinstatement is neither automatic nor mandatory. If approved, the appointment will not be retroactive, and the date of grade will be the date validated by National Headquarters upon reinstatement.

What happens is when you are able to change your membership over from patron, and do level I (you can do that as a patron member I believe), is your commander will put you in for your prior grade... that's all correct.

Now, your date of rank will read whatever that future promotion date is, it will not be backdated to your original date because that would give the impression in the record that you'd been a 2Lt continuously for that whole time & that's not the case. However, that previous time in grade DOES count. You previous records should be in the system & if if not you may need to provides some documentation, but the time does for sure count.

I have an email from Suzie Parker explaining this (I just went thru this doing paperwork to Major based on previous time in grade) that I can post if anyone wants, but it is definitive.

[mnbnm]

Thank you very much for the detailed responses. If it is indeed do-able, I will complete Level 1 as a Patron posthaste, and when the time avails itself, I will transfer over to Active. Thanks again.

PS: I have just realized that I misspelled "squadron" in every post above. Oops. :-)

[DeputyDog]

Now, your date of rank will read whatever that future promotion date is, it will not be backdated to your original date because that would give the impression in the record that you'd been a 2Lt continuously for that whole time & that's not the case. However, that previous time in grade DOES count.

That is only the case if you have been out two years or less. Mark said he last lapsed his membership in 2003 as a second lieutenant. Since it has been more than two years, his time-in-grade now starts over as a second lieutenant once National reinstates him.

[davedove]

Actually, this is a timely topic for me.  We just had a guy come in this week seeking membership who was in CAP years ago.  I believe he said he had made it to Major.  I will have to get the details from him, but these posts give me an idea of how to proceed.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Actually, this is a timely topic for me.  We just had a guy come in this week seeking membership who was in CAP years ago.  I believe he said he had made it to Major.  I will have to get the details from him, but these posts give me an idea of how to proceed.

We are actually going through something like this as well, but with a Lt Col.  He had been out of CAP since the late 90s and unfortunately the paper records were scatter around many squadrons and disposed of.  We started by processing his membership forms and figure prints.  We didn't even have an old CAPID for him!!  Interestingly enough, his records came back on eServices and everything was there, except level 1 and CPP.  SLS, CLC, etc were all there.  So we put him through the new foundations course and sent it into NHQ.  At this point he is still a SM, but we are now moving forward with getting his rank reinstated.  This is an interesting topic in itself because some people believe he should have a probationary period to show his renewed dedication to CAP and others believe he should be reinstated because he earned it.  A topic of debate I am sure.  Well, since Lt Col is a Region Level promotion, the SQ/CC decided to let the Wing CC and Region CC make the final call.  CAPF 2 sent in and now the waiting period begins.  Unfortunately, this seems to be where the delay in decisions comes in and we will have to see what they say.  Just an example in on particular case.

The short version of my answer- get the membership paperwork in and see what comes back on eServices.  NHQ may suprise you!!

[RogueLeader]

We have a Prior Sercive Captain from the Coast Gaurd comming in. Can he only be made a Lt. Col. or is there any way he can get his birds back?

[LtCol Hooligan]

I believe he can only be a Lt Col because he was not a Wing CC or higher.

CAPR35-5 Section A Paragraph 4
c. Colonel. The grade of colonel is reserved for members of the National Board, region vice commanders, the Chief of the Chaplain Service, CAP Inspector General, National Safety Officer, National Historian, and the Chief of the CAP Health Program. The National Executive Committee (NEC) is the only agency authorized to otherwise promote senior members to the grade of colonel. Such promotions are announced in personnel actions published by National Headquarters. All colonel promotions are temporary. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the satisfactory completion of assignment and must be recommended by the commander of the individual concerned.

[DeputyDog]

We have a Prior Sercive Captain from the Coast Gaurd comming in. Can he only be made a Lt. Col. or is there any way he can get his birds back?

Not unless he became the wing or region commander. I know of a prior service USAF Major General that could only get Lieutenant Colonel when he joined.

[DeputyDog]

This is an interesting topic in itself because some people believe he should have a probationary period to show his renewed dedication to CAP and others believe he should be reinstated because he earned it.  A topic of debate I am sure.

That is one thing that irks me. The person has shown his dedication to the CAP in the past by attaining the grade of Lieutenant Colonel. It takes a considerable amount of work to get to that point.

The short version of my answer- get the membership paperwork in and see what comes back on eServices.  NHQ may suprise you!!

A few years back I submitted the paperwork on a Major whose membership had lapsed well over ten years before. National credited everything minus the Level One and the time-in-grade he accumulated as a Major (he had let his membership lapse about 4 months after he got promoted, so it wasn't a big deal to him).

[captrncap]

I know of a prior service USAF Major General that could only get Lieutenant Colonel when he joined.

I give the MG credit to go back 3 grades and not have an ego about it.

[DNall]

Now, your date of rank will read whatever that future promotion date is, it will not be backdated to your original date because that would give the impression in the record that you'd been a 2Lt continuously for that whole time & that's not the case. However, that previous time in grade DOES count.

That is only the case if you have been out two years or less. Mark said he last lapsed his membership in 2003 as a second lieutenant. Since it has been more than two years, his time-in-grade now starts over as a second lieutenant once National reinstates him.

No, mine lapsed in 02, she had the exact details of my case & specifically stated...gees where's that email:

Although you had a break in service and now have a new date of grade, any time you previously served as a captain can count toward your promotion.  As I see it all your unit commander needs to do is fill out a Form 2 for a duty performance to major (if you've completed all the requirements) and make a statement in the remarks section that you completed XXX months as a captain during your previous membership from XXXX to XXXX and have now rejoined after a break in service and meet the qualifications.  It would not be appropriate to adjust your current date of grade since that would imply that you did not have a break in service.

Let me know if I can assist you in any other way.

SUSAN P. PARKER
Deputy Director, Membership Services
National Headquarters Civil Air Patrol
Toll Free 877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax 334 953-4262

Actually, this is a timely topic for me.  We just had a guy come in this week seeking membership who was in CAP years ago.  I believe he said he had made it to Major.  I will have to get the details from him, but these posts give me an idea of how to proceed.

Find records proving his previous grade (NHQ will have something if it was within the last 5-7 years, if not he will have to find some old paperwork) & reappoint him to that grade. If you can't find anything, then 2Lt it is, at least until you can locate some records. Reinstatment takes a couple months. It has to go in front of a promotion board at region at least & probably Wg as well, and they have to get together virtually or soemthing to make that happen.

I believe he can only be a Lt Col because he was not a Wing CC or higher.

Which is very unfortunate. I too have seen a few general officers with an attitude about taking the demotion & that's understandable. 

[flyguy06]

I know of a prior service USAF Major General that could only get Lieutenant Colonel when he joined.

I give the MG credit to go back 3 grades and not have an ego about it.

He doesnt wear the military style uniform.He mostly wears blue shirt and grey slacks so he doesnt actually put on Lt Col rank. Puse when you have made it that high up it deosnt matter. His retirement check still says  Maj Gen

[DeputyDog]

Now, your date of rank will read whatever that future promotion date is, it will not be backdated to your original date because that would give the impression in the record that you'd been a 2Lt continuously for that whole time & that's not the case. However, that previous time in grade DOES count.

That is only the case if you have been out two years or less. Mark said he last lapsed his membership in 2003 as a second lieutenant. Since it has been more than two years, his time-in-grade now starts over as a second lieutenant once National reinstates him.

No, mine lapsed in 02, she had the exact details of my case & specifically stated...gees where's that email:

Although you had a break in service and now have a new date of grade, any time you previously served as a captain can count toward your promotion.  As I see it all your unit commander needs to do is fill out a Form 2 for a duty performance to major (if you've completed all the requirements) and make a statement in the remarks section that you completed XXX months as a captain during your previous membership from XXXX to XXXX and have now rejoined after a break in service and meet the qualifications.  It would not be appropriate to adjust your current date of grade since that would imply that you did not have a break in service.

Let me know if I can assist you in any other way.

SUSAN P. PARKER
Deputy Director, Membership Services
National Headquarters Civil Air Patrol
Toll Free 877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax 334 953-4262

What she told you was in contradiction of this:

18. Former Members. A former member may be reinstated to the same grade held prior to voluntary membership termination, provided he or she qualifies for that grade under current criteria (including applicable senior member training criteria). A recommendation for such reinstatement is neither automatic nor mandatory. If approved, the appointment will not be retroactive, and the date of grade will be the date validated by National Headquarters upon reinstatement.

Emphasis mine.

That indicates that the date of grade starts over if the member has been out more than two years. The knowledgebase actually had a question posed to it with a situation very similar to yours (i.e. a former member who got out as a Captain with a membership break of more than two years):

In the example given because the break in service was more than two years, the three years TIG requirement would begin when the member was reinstated to the grade of Capt and the previous TIG would not be credited.

So which do you go by? The problem that I see with what she told you is this: what happens if a former Captain who has been out for three years was not approved for a grade reinstatement? Does that now Senior Member Without Grade get to keep their Time-in-Grade as a Captain?

So basically, if you have been out over two years you will lose (or you are supposed to lose) your time-in-grade.

[DNall]

I realize you could read the paragraph either way, this is the person who decides what it means & whatever she says is authoritative. Even 39-1 says if you have a question if somethin gcan be worn ont eh uniform then call her & whatever she says is policy.

The appointment is absolutely not retroactive & your date of rank does reset to the reappointment date. The only differnce it makes about how long you've been out is under a certain point they'll let you pay the back dues & get credit for that time event though you weren't techincally a member.

What she's saying actually is that this paragraph does not apply at all to the question you're trying to answer. This paragraph ONLY says IF reappointed, you don't get credit for time off, duh.

What she's speaking from are the promotion requirements, which state X months of service in a particular grade, and at no point state that the service need be continuous.

As far as the quicky situation you stated, hell I don't know if there's a loop hole in there, but the only time a reinstatement will not be approved is for cause, & if that's the case then it has the same legal effect as if they were demoted from the prior rank for cause, so no they would lose the previous credit in that case is my best guess.

[Fifinella]

I believe he can only be a Lt Col because he was not a Wing CC or higher.

CAPR35-5 Section A Paragraph 4
c. Colonel. The grade of colonel is reserved for members of the National Board, region vice commanders, the Chief of the Chaplain Service, CAP Inspector General, National Safety Officer, National Historian, and the Chief of the CAP Health Program. The National Executive Committee (NEC) is the only agency authorized to otherwise promote senior members to the grade of colonel. Such promotions are announced in personnel actions published by National Headquarters. All colonel promotions are temporary. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the satisfactory completion of assignment and must be recommended by the commander of the individual concerned.

Additionally, 35-5, Section C 15: Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces.  Regular and Reserve officers of the Armed Forces of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.

[SarDragon]

I just processed a lapsed Spaatz Captain. The reinstatement was approved, and his date of rank is the date approved by NHQ, 16 Feb 2007.

[DNall]

Right, the date of rank will ALWAYS be the date on the form you submit. That doesn't mean your TIG starts over at that date & all before is lost. If they've been gone less than two years & will pay the difference, then the date of rank is adjusted & all that time is counted for them. If they've been gone longer than two years, than they get a new date of rank to show when this service period started, but they still get credit for any previous service period in grade.