Charter Issue Date = Unit Founding?

Started by a2capt, December 17, 2012, 11:03:15 AM

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a2capt

Our "original" charter recently surfaced, and is dated mid 1968, would it be a safe assumption that is the founding date of the unit, or would they be dated when it was issued?

IOW, could there be an earlier one? Does NHQ know how old a particular unit is?

Along with that was a lot of photographs from the era too, and I'm going to add them to the photo gallery on the web eventually.

My answer partially may be that it's the date of the charter issue, because we've got a newer one that reflect a name/structure change. The unit met at a nearby airport originally, was named after that and was a cadet squadron by charter. It has since moved several miles from there, and 30 years ago and sometime in there renamed and changed to composite, though I'm not sure if all that happened at once or in steps, but that charter if I recall correctly has a 1990's date on it. Of course, that one is "somewhere safe" ..

I intend to scan them and make nice color prints for framing and then let the original go back "somewhere safe" that's documented in the file plan, but that we have something for the wall, and web. The charter number is the same through all that, which makes me wonder how they were numbered in the first place. In the mid 300's, in 1968? Did they issue them nationally in sequence and append the wing to it? Or did they jump around by some geographic designator with areas reserved for each?

flyboy53

It is dated when issued and doesn't necessary mean when the unit was founded.

If you are interested in the actual orign, you might be better served contacting older or former members and start building a file with historical information.

You also may want to contact the historian in your community to see if there are references in the local media or even a scrap book in someone's book shelf.

So often, the organization of the CAP has changed or evolved over the years. While there is an interest in the field to to trace a unit historically, there has been an absolute lack of proper historical record keeping and even a movement at command level to disregard some aspects of organizational history -- don't believe me? Look at how many wing patches have the original WWII numerical indentification numbers and how many do not.

RiverAux

I don't know when they started issuing the certificates, but they started using charter numbers for squadrons in the 1950s.

I have seen older units be given more modern dates on their certificates and I've also seen units get new certificates with the original charter date on it. 

Keep in mind that most towns with CAP units may have had multiple units in that town over the course of history.  Especially during WWII.  However, at least in my view (since there are no CAP rules on this), a current unit can't claim the history of those units unless it was issued their old charter number when it was re-started. 

a2capt

I did find a previous cadet commander from the early 1970s, who started in the unit 3-4 years earlier and his words seemed to indicate there was a general feeling of this is a "new" unit back then, but that's as far as I've been able to dig up. When I look at the photos in detail I'll try searching for more names and see what that brings. There are also newspaper articles in with it.

With databases today it's easy to determine stuff. The entry date stays. But the days of punch card based machines and giant IBM databases on mainframes were not for everyone.  Suffice to say, that which was isn't written down all in the same place .. becomes a huge challenge to put back together again.

tarheel gumby

National HQ did not start assigning Charter numbers until 1956. So it is conceiveable that some units may be older that their charters. Newspaper archives may be of some help in determining when a squadron was formed or if there was a unit in the area prior to the Issue of a Charter. A good example of this it my squadron which was formed in Feb 1945, when the Western North Carolina Squadron was split into at least 3 different squadrons. The only squadron left is the Asheville Composite Squadron, I was able to find this information from old newspaper clippings that a former member had saved. The original unit charter is dated 27 May 1957.
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

Eclipse

My wing has units with clear lineage back to the founding of CAP, but charter docs that only date to the '70's.

"That Others May Zoom"

tarheel gumby

I suspect that's  the case in most wings.
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

a2capt

Any idea on the rationale for charter numbers? Was it pie in the sky, sequential, what?

RiverAux

Within wings they appeared to put all the squadrons in alphabetical order and then start numbering them.  So, if a town started with an A it got a lower charter number than a "T" unit that may have actually formed many years earlier. 

After that initial round they seemed to start issuing new charter numbers in each wing as units were formed.

Incidentally, they have started tracking charter dates in the CAPWATCH database, but it is massively incomplete. 

ol'fido

This raises several questions for historians:

1. At what point did CAP start calling it a "charter" when a local unit was organized. Did this originate with the organization or was it something that came along in the 50's or 60's?

2. When is a unit actually formed?:

a. Is it formed the first night that a group of prospective members has an organizational meeting?

b. Is it formed on the date that the initial Form 27 is signed?

c. Is it formed when the "charter" is issued?

d. Is it formed when there is a formal activation ceremony and the charter is presented to the membership?

Unlike British regiments where the regiments number indicates its seniority on the Army List, CAP unit charter numbers indicate no seniority that I am aware of. 
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

SarDragon

#10
Quote from: a2capt on December 17, 2012, 10:34:38 PM
Any idea on the rationale for charter numbers? Was it pie in the sky, sequential, what?

Good question. My guess is that there was some sort of sequence initially, maybe alphabetical (not likely?); chronological, based on creation date; perhaps geographical.

I just looked through a CAPWATCH table (Organization.txt), and chronological seems to be the most logical. Numbers have been reused, since there are new units with numbers that are very low in the numerical sequence. Mostly, though, new units get the next number from the sequential list.

CAWG Group 7 has the lowest number of any of the groups (006), but it used to be (part of?) another group since the reorg in the late '90s.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SarDragon

Quote from: ol'fido on December 18, 2012, 12:23:05 AM
2. When is a unit actually formed?:

a. Is it formed the first night that a group of prospective members has an organizational meeting?

b. Is it formed on the date that the initial Form 27 is signed?

c. Is it formed when the "charter" is issued?

Based on my read of CAPR 20-3, c. is when the unit becomes official.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

I would say prior to charters being consistent, then all bets are off, but these days no charter = no unit.

"That Others May Zoom"

a2capt

Yes, if Group 7 is 006, but Sq. 45 in Group 3 is 007, then that perhaps shows re-use of empty holes. Except looking at the CAWG list now, it's all over the place and all the units can fit under 100 barely. 10 years ago, in the beginning of the Myrick era, one of the things he would talk about was having to pare down the wing from ~120 to around 80 where it's at now.

But even then, 120 .. 200 units I can maybe possibly see. Some of them are in the hight 400's. Did we ever get that high, or did they skip collapsed numbers for a while?

RiverAux

uh, there is no 3-digit limit on the charter numbers.  Many wings have squadrons with numbers above 100. 

As best I've been able to tell unless the Wing CC asks for something different, a new unit receives the next numerically available charter number.  I have seen Wing CCs successfully request that an "old" charter number be re-activated for a unit in the same town previously associated with that charter number.

However, there is no CAP regulation or policy that I'm aware of that actually governs CAP charter number issuance or assignment of the "honors and lineage" (to use the standard military term) of old units to newly activated ones. 

a2capt

I never said there was a 3 digit limit, my 'below 100" was the amount of units in the Wing now being where it's at, to reflect on the total # against the highest number and doubting there has ever been that many to push the highest one up there, if they were issued sequentially.

RiverAux

Ah, but they didn't start each wing's charter numbers at 0.  They might have started the 1st charter back in the old days at 10, 20, 30, etc.  Heck, they could have started it at 90. 


BTW, here is the best available information on the history of charter numbers: CAP Historical Note 16 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103637429/CAP-Monograph-No-16-Charter-Numbers

SarDragon

That covers the wing numbering very well, but doesn't address numbering with an individual wing. That's what the question is about.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

flyboy53

#18
Quote from: SarDragon on December 18, 2012, 11:05:02 AM
That covers the wing numbering very well, but doesn't address numbering with an individual wing. That's what the question is about.

It was my experience that charter numbers begin with the PL 446 that incorporates CAP as a Congressionally-chartered private benevolent corporation. How soon after the law is signed and charter numbers are assigned isn't clear, but the initial charter numbers were wing-based, but with a vastly different numerical system. So for example, PA Wing was originally 3-1 based on the first wing in the Third Army Corps area or 31st Wing as I remember from being a cadet, but charter numbers started with 37XXX. At the core, I'm sure that you may find that there is an accounting or budgetary reason for the numbers. You also may find that there is an alphabetical reason for the first two numbers.

So, what was then Composite Squadron 501 (now the Don Beatty Memorial Squadron 501) was the first (original) squadron formed in that area during World War II (the unit was about 25 miles from Gill Robb Wilson's home town); and the squadron commander/organizer, H. Doug Brown, was a personal friend of Wilson's. However, it carried the 501 designation for being the first squadron in what was then Group 50, and the charter number as I remember was 37143 for being 143rd unit then in the PA Wing.

Although charter numbers can be reused, they are generally still confined to the wing of origin and are held in reserve. I remember once inquiring about what charter number might be used for a new start-up unit and the response was a charter number for a recently disbanded unit that was being held at wing level for a year.


RiverAux

Quote from: SarDragon on December 18, 2012, 11:05:02 AM
That covers the wing numbering very well, but doesn't address numbering with an individual wing. That's what the question is about.

Didn't say it was complete, just that it was the best available historical document on this topic. 

Private Investigator

Re: Charter Issue Date = Unit Founding?

No. I really doubt anyone thought about the historical aspect of it then. The numbers really do not make sense either.  Just like when the CAPID numbers started out. You may have been in longer but people got a lower number than you did. 

a2capt

The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

SarDragon

Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

AdAstra

Quote from: a2capt on December 17, 2012, 11:03:15 AM
Our "original" charter recently surfaced, and is dated mid 1968, would it be a safe assumption that is the founding date of the unit, or would they be dated when it was issued?

IOW, could there be an earlier one? Does NHQ know how old a particular unit is?

You probably have the original charter, since other CAWG units founded in 1967-8 have numbers just a bit lower. CAWG/DA has a file of Forms 27 going back a number of years, but I'm not sure if it goes back to 1968. Give him a call.
Charles Wiest

wacapgh

My unit charter is dated 1971, but we have "Cadet of the Year" awards going back to the 1950's.

I think some sort of "charter reset" may have happened in 1971. The wing was chartered 46001, we were assigned 46002

RiverAux

Probably the unit was deactivated and then a new charter issued when a new unit was formed in the town, perhaps at the same location or members of the old units brought in some materials left over from that period. 

I've seen towns in my state that have had up to 5-6 different units assigned to the same town since CAP was formed. 

Private Investigator

Quote from: SarDragon on December 19, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.

My theory is they decided to go to the CAPID and they started at 100001 on  any membership actions starting on January 1 that year. So for example the first membership new or renewal got 100001, the next envelope they opened got 100002, etc, etc. So 100001 may have gone to the renewal of a 3 year member, 100002 went to the renewal of a 19 year member, 100003 just happen to go to a new member, 100004 went to a 32 year member, etc, etc. As paperwork went to NHQ.

With your theory would not all the lowest CAPIDs be in New England? And the highest in CA?

Private Investigator

Quote from: RiverAux on December 19, 2012, 10:18:58 PM
I've seen towns in my state that have had up to 5-6 different units assigned to the same town since CAP was formed.

The Squadron I am with now thinks they have a long history going back to WWII. But actually a Squadron 9 was there then and apprently a few others has came and gone. Anything is possible in CAP, that is why it is called, "hysterical history".   ???

SarDragon

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 20, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 19, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.

My theory is they decided to go to the CAPID and they started at 100001 on  any membership actions starting on January 1 that year. So for example the first membership new or renewal got 100001, the next envelope they opened got 100002, etc, etc. So 100001 may have gone to the renewal of a 3 year member, 100002 went to the renewal of a 19 year member, 100003 just happen to go to a new member, 100004 went to a 32 year member, etc, etc. As paperwork went to NHQ.

With your theory would not all the lowest CAPIDs be in New England? And the highest in CA?

People have moved since they got their SSANs. I was living in CA at the transition, but my CAPID starts with 106.  My SSAN was issued in NJ.

I have rooted around in eServices Member search extensively, and I'm pretty certain that's how it was done. Many of the really low numbers are still in NER. The break occurs around 148xxx, and then the numbers run chronologically, starting at 149xxx. There is a gap in there.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ßτε

Quote from: SarDragon on December 20, 2012, 12:08:49 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 20, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 19, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.

My theory is they decided to go to the CAPID and they started at 100001 on  any membership actions starting on January 1 that year. So for example the first membership new or renewal got 100001, the next envelope they opened got 100002, etc, etc. So 100001 may have gone to the renewal of a 3 year member, 100002 went to the renewal of a 19 year member, 100003 just happen to go to a new member, 100004 went to a 32 year member, etc, etc. As paperwork went to NHQ.

With your theory would not all the lowest CAPIDs be in New England? And the highest in CA?

People have moved since they got their SSANs. I was living in CA at the transition, but my CAPID starts with 106.  My SSAN was issued in NJ.

I have rooted around in eServices Member search extensively, and I'm pretty certain that's how it was done. Many of the really low numbers are still in NER. The break occurs around 148xxx, and then the numbers run chronologically, starting at 149xxx. There is a gap in there.

I posted this earlier this year:

Quote from: ßτε on June 27, 2012, 12:56:55 AM
From what I can tell, anyone who was a member in early June 1994 was assigned a CAPID number. The lowest appears to be 100000, still in use today. It looks like they started with senior members with numbering up to 14**** and continuing with cadets to 17****, and then went sequentially starting in June 1994.

It wasn't until a few years later that NHQ started actually using the CAPID for membership cards, etc.

SarDragon

CAPIDs started showing up on membership cards in 2001.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Garibaldi

I lived through 3 sets of CAPIDS: the CAPSN I was issued in 1981 (796294), using my SSN for a CAPID (###-##-####), then the newest CAPID (115717). I was looking around on e-services one night and discovered that the first 3 numbers of the current CAPID might be related to where SSNs are issued. Since my SSN was issued in GA, my CAPID, although issued in AR, starts with 115, as do quite a few members in GA and SER.

Crap. I need to change my sig file since I am no longer in ARWG.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

SarDragon

OK, here's one older thread discussing CAPIDs. Go down to post #16, and start reading.

Another.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Garibaldi

Pah. Living through the apocalypse really messes with my head.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

RogueLeader

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 21, 2012, 01:50:51 PM
Pah. Living through the apocalypse really messes with my head.

We're in an apocalypse? ???  This was NOT in our Safety Briefing.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

MSG Mac

When we switched from SSN# to the Current CAPID the numbers probably came from CAP data base which listed people by using the Access file number
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

skymaster

     In the case of Georgia Wing, the charter number date was definitely not the unit founding date, as quite a few of our units existed before there was a national CAP organisation. From information in the State Archives, it is known that Georgia Wing began as the Air Division of the Georgia State Defense Corps. The Georgia Defense Corps was originally organised in 1940 as an armed, uniformed, state-level state militia under the name of the State Defense Corps by authority of Federal Act ML 1939, Sec. 1323, as amended by Act of Oct. 21, 1940 (Sec. 1, Bill No. 36, WD 1940), established as a home guard and state constabulary, initially under the Georgia Department of Public Safety, but under command of the Adjutant General of Georgia. It was later changed to Georgia State Defense Corps by proclamation of Governor Eugene Talmadge on April 16, 1941, and organized effective on that day into in three state military divisions: the State Guard Units; the Georgia Military Police, and the Air Patrol Service. These armed, state-level military units were established to help defend the state in the absence of the regular Federally-recognised National Guard, since the entire Georgia National Guard had been federalised on orders of President Roosevelt months earlier. To fulfill their role in the defense of Georgia, State Defense Corps' units were placed at vital points, including all waterworks, power plants, and big power dams, as well as all railroad bridges, airports and broadcasting stations in Georgia. The Governor appointed Colonel Ryburn G. Clay as commander of the GSDC, and Lt. Col. Winship Nunnally as commander of the Air Division of the GSDC. As the Air Division of the GSDC, this Air Patrol unit was responsible for performing air missions for the State of Georgia, in place of the absent Georgia National Guard air units. The GSDC Air Division/Air Patrol was called to duty effective 1 December 1941 by General J.F. Curry as a unit of the new national Civil Air Patrol organisation, 9 days before the GSDC ground units were called to duty under Brigadier General Omar Bradley, and LTC Nunnally continued as the GAWG Commander through the war years.   Here is a photo, (supplied by CAP historian LTC Mark Hess) taken in the summer of 1941 at Atlanta Squadron No. 1 HQ - Major L. G. Mason, the Atlanta 1 Squadron Commander, Georgia Wing CAP (GA State Guard Air Division) is shown here with members of his staff, planning aerial demonstration flights for an airshow in Florida.



     This particular unit still exists, as SER-GA-003, Atlanta Senior Squadron 1, as a squadron under Group I of Georgia Wing. Also, here is a photo (courtesy of the Georgia Secretary of State) of the WW2 unit flag of the 2nd Atlanta Squadron, Civil Air Patrol, that is part of the Georgia State Capitol Collection of historic state military unit flags from across Georgia's long history. This unit also still exists, as SER-GA-023, Atlanta Senior Squadron 2, as a squadron under Group 3 of Georgia Wing.



     If the dates listed on the charter were the proof of the founding date of the units in question, then one might think that those units did not exist until the early 1950s. This is clearly not the case, as there are many CAP units around the country that date back to WW2, and in some cases, prior to the establishment of the national Civil Air Patrol organisation.


ol'fido

Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

BuckeyeDEJ

I didn't know there was any real rhyme or reason to the issuance of charter numbers. Before the use of region and wing abbreviations in charter numbers (for instance, MER-WV-081 or GLR-OH-278), there were five-digit numbers, the first two being the wing number in alphabetical order (for instance, 47081 was in West Virginia, and 34278 in Ohio).

The "new" scheme is a mouthful, and in my opinion (and just my opinion), it doesn't really need to be more than, say, OH-278. We all know what region Ohio Wing is in.

Seems to me the charter number is assigned at wing level for a new unit, and can be whatever the Powers That Be in a wing decide. Correct?

Also, Garibaldi: My CAPID begins with 113, and I was in West Virginia Wing when we converted from the SSN to the six-digit scheme. I don't think CAPIDs were issued with geography in mind, especially when I see newer members with numbers starting with 4s and 5s. Just looks like we're going sequentially from a certain point. I'm finding my CAPID is usually the lowest number anywhere I go.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

RiverAux

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 25, 2012, 04:54:54 AM
Seems to me the charter number is assigned at wing level for a new unit, and can be whatever the Powers That Be in a wing decide. Correct?
I think it is actually assigned by national but I know that they will honor a Wing CC's request for a specific charter number to be issued to a new or reactivated unit. 


BillB

Charter numbers ARE assigned by National UNLESS the Squadron through the Wing King makes a request for s specific number. If the Wing King approves, National will issue that number.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104