Updating the Cadet Honor Guard/Color Guard Uniforms?

[AngelWings]

Here is another overlooked thing. While we've beaten the ABU horse to death, talked about updating the flightsuits to the current USAF style, and possibly even some things about the Service Dress, I don't recall and cannot find any topics worthwhile about updating the HG/CG uniforms.

A few questions:

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments? Like cords, ascots, etc., to mirror the USAF HG?

Do you believe there should be an update to the white/nickel belts to the current USAF belts? Could an updated distinctive belt be a better option?

Do you believe there should be the addition of cold weather ear muffs/hats like those used by the USAF HG/CG?

Would it be too impractical for a squadron to send their squadrons uniforms to the dry cleaners when preparing for a performance?

The reasons I ask is because I have noticed that the current HG/CG uniform looks outdated and drab compared to todays USAF HG/CG teams, but also we do not have the same amount of money as they do. I believe this could lead into interesting segways about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

[Extremepredjudice]

AHGHGHHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH


NO.

We don't need more uniform changes until 39-1 catches up.

[spaatzmom]

Here is another overlooked thing. While we've beaten the ABU horse to death, talked about updating the flightsuits to the current USAF style, and possibly even some things about the Service Dress, I don't recall and cannot find any topics worthwhile about updating the HG/CG uniforms.

A few questions:

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments? Like cords, ascots, etc., to mirror the USAF HG?

Do you believe there should be an update to the white/nickel belts to the current USAF belts? Could an updated distinctive belt be a better option?

Do you believe there should be the addition of cold weather ear muffs/hats like those used by the USAF HG/CG?

Would it be too impractical for a squadron to send their squadrons uniforms to the dry cleaners when preparing for a performance?

The reasons I ask is because I have noticed that the current HG/CG uniform looks outdated and drab compared to todays USAF HG/CG teams, but also we do not have the same amount of money as they do. I believe this could lead into interesting segways about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

The uniforms for HG were determined by the Air Force and duplicate with a bit of distinction what they wear.  It took a lot for them to approve it also so why would we want to potentially offend them?  Why would you want to jazz up a uniform that when worn correctly and with a sharp performance looks great?  Why would you want to add to the already expensive venture these cadets have invested in?  I don't believe there is a problem needing a solution.

[a2capt]

We don't need more uniform changes until 39-1 catches up.

I'm going to go on the premise that the comments were made with that in mind.

Why make it more expensive?

It works like it is.

It absolutely does.

[Texas Raiders]

Here is another overlooked thing. While we've beaten the ABU horse to death, talked about updating the flightsuits to the current USAF style, and possibly even some things about the Service Dress, I don't recall and cannot find any topics worthwhile about updating the HG/CG uniforms.

A few questions:

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments? Like cords, ascots, etc., to mirror the USAF HG?

Do you believe there should be an update to the white/nickel belts to the current USAF belts? Could an updated distinctive belt be a better option?

Do you believe there should be the addition of cold weather ear muffs/hats like those used by the USAF HG/CG?

Would it be too impractical for a squadron to send their squadrons uniforms to the dry cleaners when preparing for a performance?

The reasons I ask is because I have noticed that the current HG/CG uniform looks outdated and drab compared to todays USAF HG/CG teams, but also we do not have the same amount of money as they do. I believe this could lead into interesting segways about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

The uniforms for HG were determined by the Air Force and duplicate with a bit of distinction what they wear.  It took a lot for them to approve it also so why would we want to potentially offend them?  Why would you want to jazz up a uniform that when worn correctly and with a sharp performance looks great?  Why would you want to add to the already expensive venture these cadets have invested in?  I don't believe there is a problem needing a solution.

Hear, hear!

All the bling adds up to major bucks. Besides, you'd never use it enough to justify the purchase. In my mind, the only acceptable additions or changes would be the white shirt and blue tie. I never liked the ascot. Everything else looks good when worn PROPERLY.

Those winter hats that were mentioned look ridiculous. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when have on of those fuzzy things on!  Oh, and as far a the dry cleaning goes.....that responsibility falls on the cadet. It's his or her responsibility to maintain that uniform. I won't let a ceremonial detail go out in public in dirty unpressed uniforms! 

Everything on the list below is nice, but wont work for CAP.

USAF HG combination cover
USAF HG belt
Cheaters
HG tab/rocker patch
Trouser and sleeve striping
Sunglasses....... Yes, I said sunglasses.

[jimmydeanno]

I think that it should be stripped down.  Ditch the ascot and patch, cheaters, white pistol belt, etc.  I think our honor guard uniform should be Service Dress with the cord and service cap.  It's easily assembled, and doesn't start looking tacky.

[SarDragon]

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments accoutrements?

I believe this could lead into interesting segways segues about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

FTFY.

As for your Qs:

No. What's really broken here? Who's going to pay for the change?

No. See above.

Is there anything definitive that says we can't? If there is, this would be a good change.

That would depend on available funds, but it's a good idea. We used to send our drill team and color guard uniforms (olde style khaki) out to the cleaners for appropriate starching and pressing.

[flyboy53]

I think that it should be stripped down.  Ditch the ascot and patch, cheaters, white pistol belt, etc.  I think our honor guard uniform should be Service Dress with the cord and service cap.  It's easily assembled, and doesn't start looking tacky.

I couldn't agree more.

What's more important, truly sharp execution of drill and movements or more bling.

More bling makes a sloppy team only look worse. A truly sharp basic uniform reflects discipline, especially when combined with the sharp drill and ceremony.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think that it should be stripped down.  Ditch the ascot and patch, cheaters, white pistol belt, etc.  I think our honor guard uniform should be Service Dress with the cord and service cap.  It's easily assembled, and doesn't start looking tacky.

I couldn't agree more.

What's more important, truly sharp execution of drill and movements or more bling.

More bling makes a sloppy team only look worse. A truly sharp basic uniform reflects discipline, especially when combined with the sharp drill and ceremony.

I never liked the ascot and my fiancee back then called it a bib...

The cover and belt should be more than enough. I'm iffy on the cord, mainly due to the color/texture of it.

[Pylon]

Can honor guards perform honor guard duties in the standard blues uniform?

[Extremepredjudice]

Kinda. They can do it in short sleeve blues, but they still need the ascot, belt, cord, and hat.

[Texas Raiders]

Reference CAPR 39-1 Chapter 3 for the standardized HG uniform.  Unfortunately, there is a discrepancy between 39-1 and the Unit Honor Guard Manual.  CAPR 39-1 Ch 3, Par 1 states, "National Cadet Competition drill teams, color guards, or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform."  The Unit HG manual shows all members wearing the stadardized HG uniform regardless of ceremonial detail, ie. color guard, wreath laying, drill team, funeral detail, etc.  As you can see, these two references are in contradiction of eachother.  Clarification is needed. 

The use of the standard service dress blue uniform is perfectly acceptable for rendering ceremonial honors and should be used in absence of the standardized HG uniform or any wing approved ceremonial uniform.  This is common practice in most, if not all military branches.

[Flying Pig]

Kinda. They can do it in short sleeve blues, but they still need the ascot, belt, cord, and hat.

^  Why do they need those items?   The more basic the uniform, the more sharp it looks.

[Extremepredjudice]

Reference CAPR 39-1 Chapter 3 for the standardized HG uniform.  Unfortunately, there is a discrepancy between 39-1 and the Unit Honor Guard Manual.  CAPR 39-1 Ch 3, Par 1 states, "National Cadet Competition drill teams, color guards, or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform."  The Unit HG manual shows all members wearing the stadardized HG uniform regardless of ceremonial detail, ie. color guard, wreath laying, drill team, funeral detail, etc.  As you can see, these two references are in contradiction of eachother.  Clarification is needed. 

The use of the standard service dress blue uniform is perfectly acceptable for rendering ceremonial honors and should be used in absence of the standardized HG uniform or any wing approved ceremonial uniform.  This is common practice in most, if not all military branches.

Colors element != color guard. There is no contradiction

The HG uniform should be used. Period. Do not use service dress.

Kinda. They can do it in short sleeve blues, but they still need the ascot, belt, cord, and hat.

^  Why do they need those items?   The more basic the uniform, the more sharp it looks.

Because they are required in the regs.

[PHall]

I just served as a judge at a Group Color Guard Comp last Saturday. We had two teams competing.

One team wore just the bare minimum required uniform, but it was clean and they all wore it properly.

The other team was wearing some extra items (ascots, white rifle slings), but there was some dirt on the slings and they were wearing two types of shoes (leather and corfam) and shirt garters were not being worn.

Wanna guess which team won the Uniform Inspection part of the comp?

Clean and simple is the way to go when you're talking uniforms...

[Extremepredjudice]

Clean and simple is great. But with honor guards, there are two uniforms. One with service coat, one with short sleeve blues

[Texas Raiders]

Yes, colors elemet and color guard refers to the same ceremonial detail.  However, refer to Unit Honor Guard Manual, CAPP 52-8 Page 15, Chapter 5- Colors Element/Color Guard..........look to the right and observe the photo of the colors element/color guard.  They are wearing the standardized HG uniform as prescribed in CAPR39-1.  The contradiction between the two manuals appears in CAPR39-1, Chapter 3, Paragraph 1, which states, "National Cadet Competition drill teams, COLOR GUARDS, or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform." 

That sentence is pretty clear.  The photo in the HG manual contradicts that sentence.  Once again, clarification is needed. 

The use of the service dress blue uniform in lieu of the HG uniform is not found anywhere in CAPR39-1.  Therefore, nothing says that you can't wear it when participating in ceremonial detail. 

If you're going to say something is required in the regs, then follow the regs. 

For further reading pleasure there is CAPM 50-16 C-1, National Color Guard Competition, which has this to say.....
17-4. Uniforms.
a. Color Guard Uniform. All uniform items must
be worn in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol
Uniform Manual.
(1) The authorized uniform for male cadets is the
short-sleeve blue shirt (with epaulets) and blue trousers.
For female cadets, the authorized uniform is the shortsleeve
blue blouse and blue slacks. Ribbons and white
shoulder cord will be worn. The above uniforms are to be
worn for the drill portions of the competition, the written
exam, and the awards banquet. All members of a team
must be in the same style shirts, trousers/slacks and
each will wear the same style headgear.
(2) Cadets may wear any other uniform items that
pertain to color guards (such as ascots, white gloves,
dress boots, helmets, pistol belts, etc.), as long as all
team members are uniform and as long as all items
being worn are approved by the team’s respective region
commander. (see CAPM 39-1, Chapter 9-1 through 9-3
for authorized uniform items).

[Майор Хаткевич]

The CAP Honor Guard Program has zero to do with the National Cadet Competition. When the Honor Guard does any of the above, they wear the CAPHG Uniform. If cadets are part of NCC, they are not allowed to wear the HG uniform, they are supposed to wear the standard blues with CAP specific Color Guard items.

There's no contradiction because these are unrelated events with different uniforms.

[Flying Pig]

Are you talking about HG school, or cadets who are participating in HG activities outside in the real world?  I dont think I have seen a cadet color guard, honor guard or whatever we are calling it these days in anything but blues.   I think its interesting that cadets always want to dress up flashy like a road flare just to carry the flag.  Tone down the uniforms so the focus is on the flag, not the cadets who look like a confetti factory exploded on them.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I just served as a judge at a Group Color Guard Comp last Saturday. We had two teams competing.

One team wore just the bare minimum required uniform, but it was clean and they all wore it properly.

The other team was wearing some extra items (ascots, white rifle slings), but there was some dirt on the slings and they were wearing two types of shoes (leather and corfam) and shirt garters were not being worn.

Wanna guess which team won the Uniform Inspection part of the comp?

Clean and simple is the way to go when you're talking uniforms...

I was always under the impression that Color guards required the plain white ascots, white gloves, white cords, white belts. Is that not so? Can anyone link me to the latest NCC documents for CG as well?

Thanks.