New CAP Pilot - qualification question?

[rframe]

Hi all, I'm just now joining CAP as a pilot with commercial, instrument, CFI ratings.  I own an airplane and operate an independent flight training operation.  I looked at joining CAP about a year ago and decided to wait and make sure its something I wanted to do.

I've honestly had some reservations being associated with CAP.  I'd say 3/4 of the pilots I've talked to has a very poor opinion of the organization, being outdated, overly bureaucratic, and largely ineffective (being replaced with other options for SAR in some areas).  The standard "image" described is of old and relatively incompetent pilots.

Please dont read these as attacks from me, I'm just stating these things because that's the way it's been described to me repeatedly and so I'm coming in hoping to find this to be inaccurate.

Personally, I'm attracted to the vision and purpose of the organization, and am hoping  to learn some new things and contribute.

I do have a question.  When I first talked with someone I was told checkout would require 25 landings in a 182 and a G1000 course.  The pilot said the landing requirement is absurd, but that's what it is, and I'd have to pay for my own time for the qualification.  I agree it seems ridiculous, but if that's what it is... then that's what it is.

Then I happened to download and read the PDF CAP Regulation 60-1 "CAP Flight Management" which says that Solo student pilots must complete at least 25 landings in the 182, but I see nothing of the sorts required for VFR/IFR certificated pilots.  Now this would make a lot more sense to me, naturally a student would have certain landing requirements.  Just FYI, I do already hold the high performance endorsement.

I'll ask more about this the next time I'm able to speak with someone there, but since I'm already getting some conflicting information I'm hoping someone here might help.

A 182 isn't exactly a complicated aircraft, so if I dont "need" to spend ~3 hours and ~$400 repeatedly doing landings then I certainly want to find out for sure now.

Thanks.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'll leave the flying requirements to be answered by someone with direct experience/knowledge.

I've honestly had some reservations being associated with CAP.  I'd say 3/4 of the pilots I've talked to has a very poor opinion of the organization, being outdated, overly bureaucratic, and largely ineffective (being replaced with other options for SAR in some areas).  The standard "image" described is of old and relatively incompetent pilots.

As a non-flight type, but someone relatively new on the Senior Member side, I'd have to say that the above line is our problem because we can't seem to get our message out, and the other half is misinformed "heard at FBO from Joe who heard from Steve, who heard from Sam who's cousin tried to go to a meeting this past Monday Morning, but the doors weren't even open!"

I'll try to address this in some sort of form:

"Being outdated": I'm not sure what that means. We're flying G1000s where as most of these same pilots probably don't hold qualifications to even touch one. Maybe they mean our mission, which if they are talking about 121.5 Freq., then I guess so, but that's not at all our only mission.

"Overly bureaucratic": Well geez, sorry that we don't turn over the keys to a G1000 to Joe the night he shows up at the meeting. Sorry that I won't let my cadets get into a plane with a guy that I just met myself. It is what it is. CAP is a 71 year old organization that has a lot of history and experience behind it. Yes it's a relatively long process to be an approved pilot for CAP. Partly due to requirements and partly due to being a volunteer organization. Remember that the guy giving you a check ride is also a volunteer with a  life outside of CAP. None of us locally are paid to be doing this.

"Largely ineffective": In some areas. We're only as strong as the local unit is. If the local unit is 12 cadets and 3 Senior Members, I can pretty much bet 100:1 that they are a non-factor in ANY Emergency Services and are basically a Cadet Squadron. We have some 1,700 units nation wide. Some only do Emergency Services, some only do Cadet Programs, some do both, and others do all THREE of our Missions (Aerospace Education, internal and external).

"old and relatively incompetent pilots": While as a young guy I hate the example of "Older = more knowledgeable", in this one case that statement is simply absurd. I can see some young hot-shot C152 fighter ace showing up at a meeting, seeing a bunch of gray haired guys with wings and getting smacked down for being dumb. Of course in the end those old farts don't know jack and are incompetent.
A GA Pilot has to follow their Personal rules and the FAAs. CAP Pilots have the same, but they also have to pass CAP standards. Not everyone can be a GA pilot. Even fewer can become a CAP pilot.

Again, I'm a non-flying type, but I've been in the organization for just short of 10 years. Most of the SMs I know are average people like you and me with strengths and weaknesses. Have I met some Ricks in CAP? Hell yea. Have I met some people who talked out of their ass? Of course. But we have more than 30,000 adult members, and unfortunately we do not screen people on the initial application for intelligence.

[JeffDG]

OK, some basics.

In CAP you get checked out in different aircraft.  The three most common are C172, C182 and C182/G1000.  Yes, the G1000 is listed as a different aircraft...

For each aircraft, you will need to complete an "Initial" Form 5 evaluation in the aircraft.  If you can fly to the standard, I'm not aware of a regulatory reason why you would need to do any prior training with CAP folks in order to do a Form 5.  The G1000 requires that you complete a program based on the Cessna standardized curriculum.  If you've done that outside of CAP, then I believe you submit the documentation to the Stan/Eval officer, and you can do a Form 5 then.  Otherwise, you will need to take the course for the G1000.  Your "initial" Form 5 in each aircraft is, IIRC, self-funded.

Once you've done that, each year you need to do an annual Form 5 evaluation...however, doing one in the "highest level" aircraft requalifies you for the others.  So, if you have 172/182/182-G1000 (this is what I'm qualified in), you do your Form 5 in a 182-G1000 and you are requalified in the 172 and 182 as well (you have to do a written questionaire, but no flight).  Many wings fund annual Form 5s from their Air Force Training Budget, so check with your Stan/Eval officer, and you may not have to pay for the annual Form 5 each year.

[Al Sayre]

Slight correction, your initial CAPF 5 is self funded.  You can do it in your own aircraft if you like, and your wing and check pilot are amenable (each wing may have their own policy on this, but nothing in CAPR 60-1 or CAPR 60-3 prohibits it). 

Once you have completed an initial CAPF 5 and are qualified as a CAP Pilot, you are then eligible (not guaranteed) to perform any other CAPF 5's on an USAF funded mission.  This is because of the CAPR 60-3 requirement that only a "CAP Pilot" can fly on USAF funded missions, and you aren't one until after your first CAPF-5.  Again, each wing may have their own policy on funding for CAPF-5's.

The only requirements for a CAPF-5 check out in a non-G1000 C-182 are a FAA High Performance signoff and 100 hrs PIC.

Welcome aboard

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Welcome to CAP!

In our Squadron (Bay Area) we have young pilots (20's) and we have older than young pilots (96).  Our average pilot age is about 50.

CAP Pilot: To become a CAP pilot you need to complete an initial Form 5.  CAPR 60-1, 3.1 a. to e. is very specific about the requirements to pass a Form 5 and there are no requirements to complete 25 flights unless you are a Solo Pilot flying the 182 or flying a complex aircraft.  Neither of which sound like they pertain to you.

G1000 non-experience: For the G1000, CAPR 60-1 3-6 a. (4) details the requirements for G1000 qualifications:

If you do not have G1000 experience you need to attend a G1000 Ground School such as this one in in the Bay Area: https://sites.google.com/a/squadron188.org/g1000-training/, complete the G1000 transition syllabus for VFR (two training flights) or IFR (three training flights), and successfully complete a Form 5 in a G1000 equipped aircraft.

G1000 experience: Check CAPF 60-1 3-6 (4) (c).

Becoming a CAP pilot involves some extra work, but there is a guide to help you in the process located here: http://www.squadron188.org/home/New-Member-Guide/cap-pilot-guide

Good luck and shoot me a PM if you have any questions.

[Eclipse]

CAPR 60-1 has all the regulations regarding our flight operations.  Only this, and an approved supplement, is enforceable. Anything else is a wives tale.
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_001_132EEB0197465.pdf

If you have the proper credentials and flight hours, you can take your check ride(s) as soon as your membership and initial qualification (Level 1) is
cleared and approved. Beyond the hours there are no special rules about landings, etc.  If you have a flexible schedule and an aircraft
in your area, you could be a VFR pilot the day after your membership is valid, some of it will be on you to connect with a checkpilot.

To be a VFR Pilot (our most basic level), you have to have 40 hours PIC and complete a CAP Form 5 check ride.
These are self-funded for the initial, then USAF-funded annually for members who maintain currency.  As a VFR pilot
you can use CAP aircraft for proficiency flying at CAP rates, and complete some other, limited training and duty.

Form 5's are specific to the aircraft, and as a new pilot you would have to do one in a 172, 182, and the G1000 (if you want).
You could also do your F5 in just one aircraft type and leave it at that.

For G1000 pilots you have to have at least 100 hours PIC and have completed G1000 transition training.

To qualify as a mission pilot, you have to have 250 hours PIC and complete a Form 5 and Form 91 check ride.
You can begin your Mission Pilot training at 175 hours PIC.  Form 91 checkrides are every two years and
are also USAF-funded after your initial.

To be a CAP Instructor Pilot, you need to complete the  National Check Pilot Standardization Course (NCPSC) , as well
as complete a Checkpilot checkride with a qualified checkpilot.  You also must be approved by your local Wing Commander.

As to being "outdated" - no idea what that means.  We add aircraft to our fleet every year, and you will be hard-pressed
to find better maintained aircraft, or much in a GA aircraft that is more "current" then a new G1000.

Yes, there is some bureaucracy to deal with, but that comes with being a part of a government-funded, paramilitary auxiliary.

Your best bet is to visit units in your area and ask them direct questions about local operations.  Those answers will be the most relevant
to your experience as a member.  If you don't like what yo hear, find a unit involved in the way you want to be. 

[Eclipse]

A note on flying your own aircraft on the checkride - don't expect this, especially on the initial.  It can happen, but most
CAP checkpilots are going to want to see you operating a CAP plane.  They have specialized equipment, complex radio panels,
and additional procedures over and above what some pilots would have on a personal or club plane.

In most cases we're going to want to see you fly our planes, and if not it would be an exception because you don't live in
proximity to a CAP bird.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Thanks Eclipse.

Just a correction you only need 200 hours PIC to become a Mission Pilot.  And for G1000 you don't need 100 hours PIC, but you do you need 100 hours PIC to fly High Performance Airplanes.  It just so happens that a Cessna 182 Nav III is a High Performance airplane

[JeffDG]

Eclipse, you might want to check a few things.

G1000 has no hours requirements.  If it's a 182 G1000, then there is a 100h total time minimum to fly high-performance, not 100h PIC. 

I wasn't aware of any minimum PIC requirement for VFR pilot at all, well other than the minimum 10 hours of PIC that you need to get your PP.

[JeffDG]

Thanks Eclipse.

Just a correction you only need 200 hours PIC to become a Mission Pilot.  And for G1000 you don't need 100 hours PIC, but you do you need 100 hours PIC to fly High Performance Airplanes.  It just so happens that a Cessna 182 Nav III is a High Performance airplane

No, you need 100 hours total time, not PIC, for high performance.

You need 100 PIC for a retract (10 of which and 25 t/o and landings in a retract)

[Al Sayre]

My bad: it's 100 TT for Hi-perf.

[rframe]

Wow, thanks for all the quick replies!

I am encouraged to hear that there should not be specific time/landing requirements, as that's what I got from my reading of 60-1, and was confused why they would've said that.

So, I'll bring this up in a non-confrontational way next time I get a chance to talk with the local people in charge of training.  It's always awkward being a "new guy" and saying "hey I think you're wrong about this..."

I dont have any problem with doing my initial Form 5 in the CAP airplane, and no problem paying for that myself... just wanted to be sure that we weren't burning up a lot of time that wasn't actually required (ie... the 25 landings issue).

I was also told they've received very minimal budget currently for training overall, so I felt like I was being prepared to potentially pay for my mission training as well.  Again, I'm willing to contribute as needed, but when there's serious cash flowing I just want to be sure we're not doing things we dont really need to be doing

Again, thanks for the response.

[Eclipse]

What you guys don't realize is that I have NHQ proxied so I make click-through dollars anytime I say something that doesn't sound right
and everyone flocks to the regs site and KB.

OK -

VFR Pilot
Valid GA license with a current medical.  No specification on hours or "#of landings".
Initial checkride is self-funded per aircraft type, then USAF-funded after that.  Subsequent checkrides only have to be done in the
most complex aircraft you have been checked out in.  (i.e. if you did a 172 & 182, in year #2 you just do a 182, with some caveats).

Transport Mission Pilot
A VFR pilot with at least 50 hours cross-country to begin the training.
Allows you to perform aircraft transportation and some other related mission activity, but no SAR.

Mission Pilot
A VFR pilot with 175 hours PIC (to begin training), 50 Cross country, and 200 hours total before completion of the qualification.

Airplane specifc:

High Performance - 100 total hours.

Complex aircraft - 100 hours total, 10 PIC, and 25 landing (our G1000s are consider complex aircraft) (This might be where the
25 landings rumor comes from - you have to have completed them before flying the G1000, not do it as a CAP member before
qyualifying.

G1000 - requires G1000 transition training.

Gippsland GA8 - Meet High performance requirements, and for pilots flying the ARCHER system, be a fully-qualified SAR/DR pilot
with IFR and 300 hours PIC.

Lots of detail here:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1891/kw/high%20performance

[Eclipse]

I was also told they've received very minimal budget currently for training overall, so I felt like I was being prepared to potentially pay for my mission training as well.  Again, I'm willing to contribute as needed, but when there's serious cash flowing I just want to be sure we're not doing things we don't really need to be doing

This is also not true or a mis-characterization at best.   While there are plenty of opportunities to fly self-funded proficiency flights
once you are checked-out, there will also be plenty of mission funding and opportunities, though this varies by wing.

The threat this year (and last), because of the issues with the federal budget and our piece of the continuing resolutions, etc., has been that
our funding will be SLASHED!  BURNED!  CRUSHED! (dogs and cats living together, mas hysteria!), the truth of the matter is that while NHQ has seen
cuts and other funding issues on the full-time staff side, our operational funding for training has been essentially static for the last several years,
with a number of wings returning funds, which are then used by other states who are active and engaged.  My wing is on track to have the most active
training year it's had in the last five.

Funding for real-world missions is a non-issue.  Actual SAR, First Air Force missions, and things like Hurricane Sandy are funded through other agencies or customers, and those are the "get it done" type of deep-pocket appropriations and funding.

[rframe]

Complex aircraft - 100 hours total, 10 PIC, and 25 landing (our G1000s are consider complex aircraft) (This might be where the 25 landings rumor comes from - you have to have completed them before flying the G1000, not do it as a CAP member before qyualifying.

G1000 - requires G1000 transition training.

OK, well maybe there is more to it then...

The only plane at our location is a G1000 182, so that is what I'd have to do my initial Form 5 in.

However, why is it considered a "complex airplane"?  Is this a CAP-specific thing?  The FAA defines "complex" as having retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable prop.  The 182 is fixed gear.  Confusing...

I do have experience in real "complex" aircraft (retractable Arrows, Cutlass, Mooney, etc.) but not the G1000 182.

[JeffDG]

No, 182/G1000 is High Performance, it's not a complex.

A R182 (there are a few out there) is complex.

[Critical AOA]

Welcome to CAP, Complex Air Patrol, where the aircraft aren't complex but the regulations can be. 

[rframe]

No, 182/G1000 is High Performance, it's not a complex.

A R182 (there are a few out there) is complex.

So you are confirming then that there is no 25-landing requirement in a G1000 C182, for an already certificated pilot, who already possesses an high-performance endorsement, correct?

It should be, complete the G1000 training, and take an F5 checkride in the airplane, and that's it... as far as basic qualification goes?

Then we can move on to mission-specific training.

[JeffDG]

What you guys don't realize is that I have NHQ proxied so I make click-through dollars anytime I say something that doesn't sound right
and everyone flocks to the regs site and KB.

I just got a kick out of you saying:  "CAPR 60-1 has all the regulations regarding our flight operations.  Only this, and an approved supplement, is enforceable. Anything else is a wives tale."

Then going on to perpetuate OWTs! 

[JeffDG]

No, 182/G1000 is High Performance, it's not a complex.

A R182 (there are a few out there) is complex.

So you are confirming then that there is no 25-landing requirement in a G1000 C182, for an already certificated pilot, who already possesses an high-performance endorsement, correct?

It should be, complete the G1000 training, and take an F5 checkride in the airplane, and that's it... as far as basic qualification goes?

Then we can move on to mission-specific training.

Correct.

100h TT, HP, G1000 course and Form 5...no minimum landings required.