Flight Jacket with Blues??

Started by ande.boyer, February 23, 2007, 02:27:17 PM

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ande.boyer

I'm trying to find language in the CAPM 39-1 that addresses wearing the nomex flight jacket with the AF style blues uniform. I found a posting in the knowledge base (Answer ID: 1129) regarding this, but it appears to quote a chapter from the uniform manual that is no longer there (7-5).  Where does the current version of the 39-1 address this?

MIKE

Table 2-1. Line 9 and Table 2-2. Line 11
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

And that goes for the leather jacket as well...

The only thing you can wear over the blues is either the waist jacket, or the trench-style coat.

"That Others May Zoom"

ande.boyer

Quote from: MIKE on February 23, 2007, 02:32:45 PM
Table 2-1. Line 9 and Table 2-2. Line 11

That's good information, but it doesn't really answer my question. 

What I would like to see is something like this:

Quote from: CAP Knowledgebase Answer ID 11297-5. What May Be Worn While Flying. All CAP members flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member owned used in a CAP flight activity) will wear CAP uniforms. The service uniform, BDUs, jumpsuit, CAP or AF style flight suit, and CAP blazer, summer or knit shirt uniform combinations are all authorized. If the service uniform is worn, it will not be mixed with flight uniform items. Members wearing the Air Force flight suit may make only essential stops en route to and from the duty performance site. If a stop is essential, members must meet the proper standards of neatness, cleanliness, and military image.

I'm assuming the above paragraph is a quote from 39-1 but apparently from an older version as there is no longer a chapter 7.

@ Mike: The table you referenced implicity prohibits wearing the flight jacket with the blues by virtue that the flight jacket is absent from the authorized list of outergarmets. However, if I'm going to call out the squadron commander of another unit on this uniform infraction, I'd like to be able to show him where the manual says explicity he can't be wearing the MA-1 flight jacket with his blues (like it apparently used to).  Of course, even with this old documentation, one could make the argument that it only applies when flying and that the mixing of flight uniform items with the service uniform is ok if you're on the ground :-/

@ Eclipse: yes, I know that as do most people. But I need to find where it explicity says that in the book.

Thanks..

Major Carrales

I hope, when you do call out this person, that it is done in private and tactfully and not in a threatrical display before the unit.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

LtCol Hooligan

Before you call this person out, one thing to consider is that anything is authorized for safety.  Personally I feel if you have the regulation jacket available, you should wear it, but if you do not, wear what will keep you safe and warm.  This can mean a civilian jacket, BDU jacket, or flight jacket.  The key here is that the item should be immediately removed when entering a building and also should be worn zipped and buttoned up.  I am not advocating wearing the flight jacket when a regulation garmet is availalble, but what looks more professional to the general public and untrained eye?  A yellow ski jacket or a professional looking flight jacket?  Remember, in North Dakota and other areas, it gets down to -30 below 0.  Your skin freezes in less than 5 minutes of exposure.
Maj Ludlow
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

Hawk200

Quote from: majludlow on February 23, 2007, 05:00:26 PM..., in North Dakota and other areas, it gets down to -30 below 0.  Your skin freezes in less than 5 minutes of exposure.

Been there, done that. My question for you is: Why would you wear blues at those temps? In Alaska, it was BDU's for most of the winter, with polypro, parkas, and mukluks. Blues were just not something even considered in mid winter, unless you were attending a wing function where it was necessary.

Secondly, the blues and woodland BDU's are uniforms that need to be worn properly, not modified "in the interest of safety". You should have appropriate outergmarments with them. If you can't affford the appropriate outergarments for those, invest in alternate uniforms that permit the wear of appropriate civilian outergarments. You can wear pretty much anything with white/grays or blue BDU's (within reason).

MIKE

When CAP distinctive uniforms are available that you can wear civilian outerwear with, we really shouldn't be allowing members to wear the Air Force style uniform without the appropriate uniform outerwear.

You have a choice... Make the right one for your situation.

Edit:  Basicly what Hawk200 said.
Mike Johnston

Arch Angel

that is assuming that that person can afford to invest in another uniform if they can not afford to buy the write outtergarment what makes you think that he or she could afford a new uniform rember we are vollenteers we pay to be here and unless you pay for the right uniform dont say anything because you can tell the finaical situations of officers or cadets

MIKE

Come And Pay or Cash And Plastic if you prefer.
Mike Johnston

Arch Angel

ya that is the second thing i tell cadets parents AFTER they join lol

LtCol Hooligan

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 23, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
My question for you is: Why would you wear blues at those temps? In Alaska, it was BDU's for most of the winter, with polypro, parkas, and mukluks. Blues were just not something even considered in mid winter, unless you were attending a wing function where it was necessary.

Secondly, the blues and woodland BDU's are uniforms that need to be worn properly, not modified "in the interest of safety". You should have appropriate outergmarments with them. If you can't afford the appropriate outergarments for those, invest in alternate uniforms that permit the wear of appropriate civilian outergarments. You can wear pretty much anything with white/grays or blue BDU's (within reason).

I am sure you have the same experience, but extreme cold weather can happen for 4 months of the year in some areas.  We do try to limit the wear of blues during those months, in North Dakota, but it is a uniform that does get worn at times.  It is just a fact of life here. 

Officers, of course, have a choice to purchase the corporate uniforms, but  cadets usually do not.  I was looking at the KB and it did state that cadets can wear the corporate uniform, but for the life of me I have never seen one do so unless they are over 18 and do not meet grooming standards.  It may look strange, but when it is cold all of the cadets better be wearing some sort of coat over their uniform- no exceptions.  I do not believe that you can be so strict that you can't allow them to wear warm weather gear- just because it is not authorized.  Uniform coats are hard to come by and apparently are only going to get harder to find with the recent changes at DRMO.  That means that we all need to be flexible with the requirement.  Keep in mind too that once the member enters a building, I am a firm believer that the unauthorized coats better come off.  Outside is a completely different story though.  Unless we are going to move away from the AF style uniform, I think we need to consider safety above appearance and heaven forbid, go against a regulation.
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

Eclipse

Quote from: majludlow on February 23, 2007, 05:00:26 PM
Before you call this person out, one thing to consider is that anything is authorized for safety. 

No, its not.  And this bogus argument is what causes us the most problems.

Since we can all wear a golf shirt with a parka or raincoat, there is no allowance for "safety".  The regs are clear.  period.

I assume we are speaking about seniors, as we cannot require cadets to wear anything which is not issued or purchased for them.

Seniors do not have the same leeway, nor should they.

"That Others May Zoom"

DNall

This is Texas, really cold is the mid-30s to 40s, and we don't go outside the 10 days a year it does that.  :P

Okay, obviously there is a time when safety requires temporary use of civilian outerwear. Not comfort but safety, don't cry wolf on that or you're going to get shut down when things really are a safety issue. If you're going to pull out the temporary safety flag on this then it should be a civilian item, not a flight jacket. A flight jacket & the name & command, flag, etc are not cheap in themselves; while lightweight jackets are available from surplus.

To answer the question though, what's in the chart are the ONLY authorized items. That's how all the charts work. That's the actual referecne the knowledge base should have used. The one you quoted from them was not the place in the previous manual that dealt with what could or could not be worn with blues.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 23, 2007, 06:34:31 PM
I assume we are speaking about seniors, as we cannot require cadets to wear anything which is not issued or purchased for them.
Oh hell yes we can! The uniform manual is set. It requires blues & BDUs. The AF is gracious enough to provide most blues items, but not shoes. We get some shoes from surplus, but not enough. We also get BDUs from surplus but not enough. Then there's all the items that go on them. We do the best we can to help people out, but ultimately they are responsible to purchase and wear the right things, & will be held accountable for that moreso than adults.

MIKE

Quote from: DNall on February 23, 2007, 06:41:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 23, 2007, 06:34:31 PM
I assume we are speaking about seniors, as we cannot require cadets to wear anything which is not issued or purchased for them.
Oh hell yes we can! The uniform manual is set. It requires blues & BDUs.

Quote from: CAPM 39-11-5. ... Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.
Mike Johnston

DNall

And CAP does not supply nametags for instance, and as of now we don't provide shoes either, maybe not flt hats. I think you'll find however that the standard definition of "minimum basic uniform" to most people is one set SS blues & one set BDUs, and that is what's required of all cadets.

Eclipse

Quote from: MIKE on February 23, 2007, 07:06:00 PM
Quote from: DNall on February 23, 2007, 06:41:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 23, 2007, 06:34:31 PM
I assume we are speaking about seniors, as we cannot require cadets to wear anything which is not issued or purchased for them.
Oh hell yes we can! The uniform manual is set. It requires blues & BDUs.

Quote from: CAPM 39-11-5. ... Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

Danke - faster then me!   ;D

The MBU is the blues provided by the FCU.  Anything else is optional and we cannot require it.

In practice, this is rarely an issue, and few cadets have too much issue coming up with a set of BDU's as well.

BUT...

As has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere, if push came to shove, we could not require anyting but the MBU, even at an encampment, (unless we provide it).

Since ES is not a core component of the CP, there's no conflict between regs there.  ES is optional, so ES uniform compliance can be mandated.

Encampments are not necessarily optional, as one is required for Mitchell, so the argument has been made that we could not force a cadet to wear BDUs if they couldn't afford them, etc.

Use search and revive those threads if you must.

"That Others May Zoom"

Pylon

Quote from: DNall on February 23, 2007, 07:16:34 PM
And CAP does not supply nametags for instance, and as of now we don't provide shoes either, maybe not flt hats. I think you'll find however that the standard definition of "minimum basic uniform" to most people is one set SS blues & one set BDUs, and that is what's required of all cadets.

There's already a thread elsewhere on this.  If you read the text, the minimum basic uniform is the short sleeve blues.  Cadets are required to possess a complete minimum basic uniform.  This means they have to buy insignia and shoes, if they need them.

Cadets are specifically not required to purchase any other uniform.  That would include BDUs.

In any case, the argument is moot because most cadets will not get along in the program without a set of BDUs.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

DNall

Encampments are optional as is advancement & staying in the program. The rule you guys are refering to is HQ trying to knock out the wide range od stuff beyond BDUs. You go out & try to buy every combination of blues & BDUs  w/ outterwear yo'd be broke for a long time. Their intent is merely not to price cadets out of participation, which is nice, but impractical unless they want to provide massivly more BDUs & a fat budget from which we can purchase attachments. Blues are just not practical all the time (even excluding ES), and will be ruined if they aren't taken care of.

Anyway, my point is cadets, just like adults, should eventually go out & get teh outterwear or have it issued to them if they are in a location that they are going to need to wear it regularly.

ande.boyer



Quote from: MajLudlowBefore you call this person out, one thing to consider is that anything is authorized for safety.
Whether or not this is true, I don't think safety necessitates wearing a flight jacket with blues on a Sunny 45° day while indoors.

Quote from: DnallTo answer the question though, what's in the chart are the ONLY authorized items. That's how all the charts work.
If that's the best we got, I guess that will do.

I would prefer there be a line in the regs saying "wear of the nomex flight jackets with any other uniform than the green flight suit is prohibited."  But, if there's not then oh well.

Does anyone have any other input ON THIS TOPIC and not what uniforms we can and cannot make cadets wear??

MIKE

Quote from: ande.boyer on February 23, 2007, 10:12:12 PM
Does anyone have any other input ON THIS TOPIC and not what uniforms we can and cannot make cadets wear??

Quote from: CAPP 15111. a. You must wear the appropriate uniform while performing
your Civil Air Patrol duties.
b. You may wear only authorized uniform combinations; you
may not mix uniform items
or wear distinctive uniform items
with civilian clothes. (Distinctive uniform items are those items
that are unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia,
ribbons, cap devices, and buttons with Civil Air Patrol coat of
arms).

Emphasis added.
Mike Johnston

ande.boyer

woot! that's what I was looking for.  TY Sir!

MIKE

It's from a pamphlet though, so yeah...  ::)

Quote from: CAPR 5-41. i. "Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies.
Mike Johnston