Petition to NHQ

[Devil Doc]

I am starting an petition to change the regs for Military Badges and Awards, those that have earned them should be able to wear them.  This includes all CAP, and AF uniforms.




Also, I want an Petition on the whole H/W Issue. If your motivated but do to an Physical condition or and Disability that you cannot keep the weight off, there should be an waiver.



Im new at this so any help much appreciated.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

DD, all I can say is "good luck."

NHQ proved with the Corporate Service Uniform flap that they really aren't concerned with what we think or not, especially WRT uniforms.

PM inbound.

[RADIOMAN015]

Actually it is the Air Force Regulation which prohibits the wear of award/ribbons and badges on other than military uniforms utilized on a regular basis.   Other military services also have restrictions, with the Army being the more liberal.

BTW this limitation also affects the VFW & American Legion wear of AF related awards/ribbons/badges on their organizational specific uniforms.

I think the BEST approach is for the Secretary of Defense, via a policy/regulation to authorize all the services to allow active, former, & retired military members to wear appropriate awards/ribbons/badges on "appropriate" organizational uniforms approved by the Secretary of Defense.

I think this change in policy would than basically allow CAP to authorize the wear of military ribbons etc on the white/grey uniform combination and possibly even on the CAP blazer.       

Unless this happens, CAP is bound by its' agreement with the AF to comply with any restrictions on uniforms imposed by them.

RM
   

[Devil Doc]

Yes, but if the DAV, VFW, Patriot Guard etc can display theres, then why cant CAP?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yes, but if the DAV, VFW, Patriot Guard etc can display theres, then why cant CAP?

Who said they "can"?. They do, but they don't necessarily do it right.

[Ned]

I think a few reminders might be in order.

When we use the term "NHQ" in a sentence like "NHQ won't let us wear X or Y on our uniforms!", we need to make sure we know to whom we are referring.  First, there is no one working at CAP NHQ in Alabama that makes policy about uniforms.  The workers at NHQ are our paid corporate staff.  These folks work a lot of hours and do critical work for the membership and our stakeholders, but not a single one of them has any say in our uniform policies.  And truth be told, not many of them really pay much attention to what we are wearing in the field.  They are too busy supporting us.

CAP uniform regulations are drafted, approved, and implemented by our volunteer leadership.  Part-timers like you and me, and as far as I know, every single one of them started out working long hours at a squadron.  Again, just like you and me.

Our AF colleagues control the wear of our AF style uniforms, and they take this responsibility seriously.  If and when we make requests to change our AF style uniforms, we staff the requests through our partners at CAP-USAF.  The AF has their own internal staff approval process on these requests, but generally has been very supportive of us in the past.

I know that some members feel very strongly about the H/W and grooming restrictions on the AF style uniforms.  Our AF partners understandably feel very strongly about it, too.  And their position is that we need to meet (roughly) the same standards to which they hold themselves in that regard.  It is not an unreasonable position, and one that we must respect even if we disagree.

They want us to look as professional as possible as we do the work of CAP.  And they have done some very positive things for us -- they have allowed the "US" insignia on our service dress, for example.  And supporting us as we begin the process of requesting a waiver for ABUs from the SECDEF.

The AF does not believe it is allowable for us to wear military badges or ribbons on our corporate uniforms.  Some of you here clearly disagree with them, and have some good examples to support your position.  But the point remains that after consulting with their legal types, they believe it to be improper and that does not seem likely to change in the near future.  It may be that if we could get their legal types and ours to sit down together and go over the relevant statutes and DoD regulations / policies that progress could be made, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Until then, we can continue to discuss it here on CT.   

And in the meantime, we have missions to fly, cadets to train, and folks to educate about things aerospace.

Ned Lee
Member, NUC

[Devil Doc]

That is a good point Ned, the point I was getting at is the standards needs revamped and looked at closer. We are the Only Auxillary that his this whole "AUX ON/AUX OFF" delimma. I mean I understand training, the is the whole point of being apart of CAP, and the cadets are important to. I am wondering were are the freedoms for the senior members? Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do. The cadet program is great, the senior need some work. So if it is not NHQ or whoever, then we need to get together on CT and see what can be changed, it doesnt take that much to change policies, the military does it constantly. I feel sympathetic for seniors, it is like we get punished for being "Fuzzy/Plump" many of us cannot help that. So somewhere somehow there is an way to change it. If CT is an great place for it, then so be it.

[coudano]

My (likely unpopular) opinion is that military ribbons and badges should not be worn on any cap uniform at all (including military style).  One is not the other, what you do in one for the most part has little to no application in the other.  You wouldn't demand to wear your military stuff on your BSA uniform at your kid's scout pack, either (well there are some people who would...).  Compartmentalize a little...  Keep work at work, and CAP at CAP.  Even better, come to CAP and do some amazing things to earn some amazing decorations in THIS context, instead of just showing all the awesome you have done in some OTHER context which makes you look cool but hasn't done much for CAP here and now.

[Devil Doc]

Interesting Argument, a Valid one. So, instead of allowing Military Ribbons on the blue, but not the G/W, then i was saying it should be all or none.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

This is not a petition expecting them to see the names and think... Uhoh,  we better change this reg. more of an item to help them see how their veterans who have given of themselves feel so that they may reconsider their decision and make a change. I think we all agree, or we should agree that this regulation is only hurting the veterans, we feel like our awards don't belong to us if we cannot wear them when it's appropriate. They are the military property, we didn't earn them, the Air Force earned them. And that's not how it should be. If it Were, then our VA disability payments would go to them because we didn't get wounded or hurt, the Air Force did.


1St LT KILLION, Robert (CAP) 290067
2nd the petition

[Devil Doc]

I really didnt earn mine, I just didnt duck fast enough, lol.  Kidding

[a2capt]

... I am wondering were are the freedoms for the senior members? ... Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, ... and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do.

... It's too bad that the Foundations portion of Level I that covers this is 4 pages in a pamphlet style. That is where the petition should be aimed. 

1. Discuss the historic origins of CAP.
2. Identify and describe the three primary missions of CAP.
3. Outline CAP's basic organizational structure.
4. Explain why CAP considers squadrons to be the heart of the organization.
5. Describe the role of CAP-USAF.

All if that in four pages, with several large images. That should be 3-4 pages each.

The CAWG Group 7 people used to do a really nice job with Level I on a weekend style course, similar to how SLS/CLC are, and while it was a weekend worth, then mostly just a Saturday before fizzling and succumbing to the online experience.. maybe it was more than just Group 7, but at the time that was my exposure and I don't recall releases for a similar class from other areas on the Wing wide email list at the time. I could go back and look... I've still got email archives.

Because your statement of "three months" and what not is all pretty evident. Freedoms? Really? What freedoms are we missing?

If they got into the history and structure of the organization just a little more .. you might not need to go slinging petitions around as you would see what CAP isn't.

[Devil Doc]

Well when I mean freedoms, I mean choices compared to the cadet program. I am really good at history, and I knew the history of CAP months before I joined. I know CAP is limited because of resources or funding, but I see alot of our seniors refuse to come because there is nothing for them to do. Alot of our seniors wanted to fly, since our squadron does not have an plane, we loose half it not most of our seniors.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And their position is that we need to meet (roughly) the same standards to which they hold themselves in that regard.

True enough - except that I have seen AD, ANG and AFRES members who do not meet AF standards, much less CAP, not to mention SDF troops wearing the (sometimes) modded AF uniform.

[abdsp51]

There is no h/w for the AF.  We have the ptest and basically you fail 4 times consecutively and you are out and there is a huge impact on your career.  They have gone from h/w to body mass index.  Most of the large folks you see are probably on a be well and FIP program. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

the Army went away from HW standards as well... For the most part. They have HW, but they go on BMI more. I met HW standards by a long shot. I had to be taped for BMI, almost every time, because I was underweight. I also knew of a few in my unit that couldn't pass HW, to save their life! But, they Were not fat at all. They had like two percent body fat, but had so much muscle they Were very over weight. One was about 25lbs over. He was Massive, he did competitions a lot. But the Army also did, when I was in, the pass/fail Pt standard, if you failed two in a row you went to remedial Pt, and you had to pass the next test or they could give you the boot.

I think this is the same sort of thing they should do, in CAP, have a PT test, pass it and all good, fail it three times and wear corporates until you can.

[bflynn]

At this point, I'd settle for CAP service ribbons for the 5 major branches.  Blue and gold for the Navy, Bue and Red for the Corp, etc.  Something to recognize veteran status would be nice.

Or just let me wear my dolphins...then it's all good

[SarDragon]

[quoted in part]  Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do.

There is a lot for Seniors to do. There are 21 CAPP 200-series pamphlets that detail the requirements for participation in the subject specialties. This is the primary purpose of senior membership - running the organization. This is really where the rubber meets the road. If these jobs aren't getting done within a unit, the unit collapses.

[spacecommand]

I am wondering were are the freedoms for the senior members? Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do.

I disagree with that there are not much for Seniors to do. There are many things for Senior Members to do in and out of what is in the professional development program.  Without Senior Members you don't have CAP, even the Cadet Program operation requires Senior Members, the Cadets don't just go at it themselves.

[Devil Doc]

How bout them seniors that do not want an leadership position? Then there stuck, I find plently of stuff to do, I talking in perspective of a few conversations I have overheard.