Glider Pilots

[desert rat]

Are there any glider pilots here?   I am thinking to become one, but want to know if there will be much of any opportunity for a person to use the glider training in CAP.    Once you recieve the glider pilot license, how long will it be before you could start giving orientation flights and how would you do it if there are no CAP glider planes in your area?

[Al Sayre]

See CAPR 60-1.  Generally, there are no real "Glider Missions" in CAP beyond Orientation flights for Cadets.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I didn't look up 60-1, but as I remember you need at least 100 flights in a glider before you can be an O-flight glider pilot.

But... do NOT let that dissuade you from learning to fly gliders. 

First of all, gliders are the most fun you can have with your clothes on.  The idea that one can gain altitude without applying power is so foreign to ASEL pilots as to place you in a position similar to that occupied by Merlin in the Court of King Arthur.

Second, the challenge of flying sailplanes is something that will make you a better pilot should you decide to start flying gas-and-oil-burners.

Third, even though you can't give O-flights, you can be an asset in AE, prepare cadets for O-rides with instruction, train cadets in ground crew duties and signals, and teach them air navigation, pre-flight procedures, airport traffic patterns, etc. 

Also, NOBODY understands weather and air movement better than the sailplane pilot.  We have a term for the sailplane pilot who does not understand the movement of heated air:  "Pedestrian."

Good luck.  When I want to go somewhere, I fly the single-engine.  When I want to go up in the sky and have fun, I fly a glider.

[desert rat]

Thanks, I have heard before that you can actually use the CAP gliders to log in hours for qualifications.  Is that true?   Can you do about 5 or more flights a day if they are short flights?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes.  Gliders are he one type of aircraft that Officers can use for primary flight instruction.

You CAN get 5 short flights a day, sure.  But why would you want to?

Your first few flights will be to 3000 or 4000 feet.  This is to give you time to learn the aero tow technique, (Imagine flying a powered airplane, but your engine is on a string 200 feet out ahead of you).  This will also give you time to learn "Airwork," or turns, stalls, descents, etc.

The rest of your flights will be to either 2000 feet to learn thermalling and soaring, followed (hopefully) by a landing at the airport; or 1000 feet just to practice the landing technique.

Your check ride will be two flights.  One to 3000 feet, box the wake on the way up and demonstrate airwork after release.  The second will be to 1000 feet, with the check pilot watching from the ground as you land.  By the time you get the glider back to the start point after your landing roll, your Temporary Airman Certificate will be just about typed out.

You are not going to learn anything new by shooting pattern tows to try to get to 100 flights.  Take 2000 foot tows, learn to soar, and have some fun flying.  You will like it a lot more.

[flyguy06]

See CAPR 60-1.  Generally, there are no real "Glider Missions" in CAP beyond Orientation flights for Cadets.

Glider orientation flights are a "real" mission. You say it like it isnt.

Again, just because its not related to ES doesnt make it any less important.

[Al Sayre]

That's not what I meant.  His original question asked about how much opportunity to use it in CAP.  There's only one "use" that I'm aware of, and that is Cadet Orientation Flights, which, depending on your location and the Wing's Cadet Programs, could be very limited or non-existant.  For example, in MS our glider was damaged in a hail storm and hasn't been repaired or replaced yet.  No Glider = No Glider O' Flights = No Missions.

[Chris Jacobs]

I believe that you can by pass the 100 flight rule if you have your commercial ticket.  I knew a guy that had almost every power ratting under the sun and he came out for two long days and got his glider commercial ratting.  he went for the commercial so he could do O-Rides.

I love flying gliders.  i have my solo endorsement, and i was so close to privet when our glider got destroyed in a wind storm one night.  we have a new one so i guess i will make another run for it.  I think gliding will be something i will do for the rest of my life.

And glider o ride days are defiantly a lot of work.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The advantage (As I watch the slow, steady approach of Social Security age) of gliders is that you do not need a medical certificate to fly them.

[flyguy06]

The advantage (As I watch the slow, steady approach of Social Security age) of gliders is that you do not need a medical certificate to fly them.

What does age have to do with it? My CFI just turned 71 years old and he flies two to three times a week

[Chris Jacobs]

The advantage (As I watch the slow, steady approach of Social Security age) of gliders is that you do not need a medical certificate to fly them.

What does age have to do with it? My CFI just turned 71 years old and he flies two to three times a week

I am pretty sure my CFIG is older than that.

[Al Sayre]

You can also fly LSA's without a medical...

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, I know.  It isn't just old age.  I have lived a bad, dissolute lifestyle, and if I had engaged in clean living I'd be healthier now.

But who wants to die healthy?

[desert rat]

I am so dissapointed.  Today I was supposed to start my glider lessons.  The weather is so bad with heavy winds and cold that they had to scrub the training.  I plan n doing about 8 hours a day twice a week.  It looks like alot of fun if I can ever get it started.

[SJFedor]

Gliders scare me. Nothin turnin or burnin in front, behind, or beside me 

Nah, they're lots of fun. I did a few o-flights as a cadet in them, enjoyed them, learned a few things I later applied. Gliders are on my list, although it's after my comm, CFI, CFII, multi, MEI, MEII, and (god willing) helicopter.

[Flying Pig]

I have my helicopter, glider and fixed wing ratings.  For pure relaxation you cant beat a sailplane.  Aerobatics are awesome in a sailplane.

You just have to remember that every landing in a glider is an emergency landing!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have my helicopter, glider and fixed wing ratings.  For pure relaxation you cant beat a sailplane.  Aerobatics are awesome in a sailplane.

You just have to remember that every landing in a glider is an emergency landing!

Conversely, to a glider pilot, any emergency landing in a powered airplane is just another glider landing.

[Flying Pig]

Hmmmmmm, thats deep.  Almost poetic 

[SAR-EMT1]

While the idiom is perfectly true me fears the possibility of landing off the Airport grounds... and the fallout that would result.  - HAs anyone done a landing away from a runway? - glider or power

I heard once that 'Ike' built the interstates  in certain areas as emergency strips for the old C119 and 141s In the Event of War - anyone care to confirm that?

[Flying Pig]

I havn't, but I know a few glider pilots who have made off site landings.  No big deal as long as you dont damage the bird.  As far as a glider, just haul out the trailer, take it apart, and your on your way. 
As far as power, if you made an off-site landing it would be because of some greater emergency.  As long as it wasn't pilot induced, ie. loss of fuel, the owner would probably just be happy you got it on the ground and that the airplane you rented from them didnt kill you!

I have heard that same thing about some of the interstates. Never seen anything official, although driving in some areas I'd say its definitely possible.

[davedove]

I have heard that same thing about some of the interstates. Never seen anything official, although driving in some areas I'd say its definitely possible.

I've always heard the same thing, but not anything official.  That's supposed to be why there are so many straight patches in the system, so you can land a plane.  And that does make some sense.  If an enemy somehow managed to take out all landing strips, there would still be all those thousands of miles of interstate to land on.

[JohnKachenmeister]

That's why the system is called the Interstate and Defense Highway system.

Eisenhower was impressed with the German Autobahns, and the fact that the Luftwaffe used them as airstrips when the 8th Air Force made their bases into rubble. 

[sardak]

Sorry folks, but the landing strip plan on the Interstates is urban legend (or the Federal Highway Administration has a massive misinformation program trying to hide the plan).  Here is the official site of the  "Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways."

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/homepage.cfm

And if you don't want the long version, here's the short version from the FHwA regarding designing for landing strips.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/mayjun00/onemileinfive.htm

Mike

[Al Sayre]

In my initial flight training, I was taught that roads are in general poor places to land aircraft for several reasons, traffic, electrical poles and wires that are very hard to see from the air, crowned surfaces, potholes, ditches alongside, mailboxes, fire hydrants and a plethora of other things planted along the edges just waiting to rip the wings off.  Also, your average 2 lane section of road is only 20-30 feet wide, slightly less than the wingspan of many light aircraft... 

[JohnKachenmeister]

During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

Of couse, in 1963, it was only 20 years since World War II, the USAF guy tellig us that didn't say "The Germans."  There was no such thing as "The Germans" then.  The people who lived in the country called Germany were "The F-ing Krauts."

[fyrfitrmedic]

During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

[SAR-EMT1]

During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

Info? Sources..?

[fyrfitrmedic]

During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

Info? Sources..?

The key phrase above is "if memory serves"... and mine doesn't always serve as well as I'd like 

When I get a chance I'll check some archives and see if I can find anything on this. From what little I remember, CAP served in a peripheral role at best.

[JohnKachenmeister]

During my cadet days the USAF had a plan called "Operation Recovery."  The plan was to use reservists to report immediately to a civilian airport in the event of a Russian nuclear attack.  The plan was based on the assumption that manned bombers could get launched on warning of an attack, but by the thime they completed their mission and returned, there would be no base to return to.  We were briefed that civilian airports could be used as backup bases, or even long sections of interstates, noting that the Germans did that in World War II.

I remember this resurfacing in the early to mid-80s under a different name; there was even at least one exercise that CAP participated in regarding this if memory serves.

Info? Sources..?

The key phrase above is "if memory serves"... and mine doesn't always serve as well as I'd like 

When I get a chance I'll check some archives and see if I can find anything on this. From what little I remember, CAP served in a peripheral role at best.

Your memory is pretty clear.  CAP had a small role in Operation Recovery, which didn't last all that long anyway.  CAP personnel were considered to back up reservists as flight line personnel, and other semi-skilled jobs where there were shortages of reservists.  Also, CAP planes (which then meant "Member-owned" planes) could be used to cross-level personnel.  Fly selected folks from areas where there were too many reservists to areas having not enough.

Transfer of weapons systems was classified then, so I can't tell you the plan for that, but I'm sure there was one, because the whole idea of the plan was to "Recover" for a second strike.

[SAR-EMT1]

As to the weapons system reference: Meaning to say CAP members might have a hand in launching a second strike of ICBMs? Or just relocating the  crews?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Not ICBM's.  Regular air-droppable nukes... What the manned bombers carried.

[SAR-EMT1]

Ok, my mistake.. but my question still stands: in relation to wepons systems, what role could CAP possibly play?

[JohnKachenmeister]

CAP had no role in the movement of weapons systems.  That's why we were not briefed on the classified aspects of Operation Recovery.  We knew that somehow, somebody was to bring them, and somehow, somebody was to guard them until they were put into a bomber, but we had no specific knowledge beyond that which we could figure out based on the mission statement itself.

CAP's role was to augment the USAF Reserve, providing base services when possible and when needed to make up for any personnel shortfalls.  Also, to use planes to cross-level USAF Reservists from places where there were too many folks to places with not enough.

When I said "I can't tell you..." I wasn't being secretive.  I can't tell you because I don't know.  Nobody told me.

[SJFedor]

In my initial flight training, I was taught that roads are in general poor places to land aircraft for several reasons, traffic, electrical poles and wires that are very hard to see from the air, crowned surfaces, potholes, ditches alongside, mailboxes, fire hydrants and a plethora of other things planted along the edges just waiting to rip the wings off.  Also, your average 2 lane section of road is only 20-30 feet wide, slightly less than the wingspan of many light aircraft... 

True, but once I'm down at the level where things may rip my wings off, they've just about served as much purpose as they can, and they're welcome to leave. It'll slow me down a bit 

Besides, you gotta admit, if you crash on a paved road, you'll be a lot more easily found then putting it down in the trees. Maybe not immediately found, but odds are, in a few hours, at least someone will notice that the road is now closed due to the addition of a cessna in the northbound lane.

Although, the DOT may be upset that you made a rather large pothole for them to fix in the next 3-5 years, funding permitting.

[SarDragon]

[portions redacted] Besides, you gotta admit, if you crash on a paved road, you'll be a lot more easily found then putting it down in the trees. Maybe not immediately found, but odds are, in a few hours, at least someone will notice that the road is now closed due to the addition of a cessna in the northbound lane.

Although, the DOT may be upset that you made a rather large pothole for them to fix in the next 3-5 years, funding permitting.

Here in Sunny San Diego, we have had several instances of light aircraft making emergency landings on a 6 lane wide city street near one of our GA airports, and even the one that crashed hard didn't make much of a dent. Each incident did cause quite a stir, though.

[Chris Jacobs]

While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

[JohnKachenmeister]

While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

We were talking about the planned use of sections of interstates (NOT 2-lane country roads) as emergency military airfields.  Not emergency landings, per se, but landing USAF aircraft on them in order to rearm them and send them back up to fight if their bases had been nuked.

Eisenhower got the idea from the Germans, who used the Autobahn as a runway for planes up to and including the ME-262.  It was also included in the thinking for Operation Recovery.  I do believe, however, that there were no specific provisions in the law requiring 1 mile straight for every 5 miles generally.  That would be an engineering nightmare in mountainous terrain.

[SJFedor]

While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

We were talking about the planned use of sections of interstates (NOT 2-lane country roads) as emergency military airfields.  Not emergency landings, per se, but landing USAF aircraft on them in order to rearm them and send them back up to fight if their bases had been nuked.

Eisenhower got the idea from the Germans, who used the Autobahn as a runway for planes up to and including the ME-262.  It was also included in the thinking for Operation Recovery.  I do believe, however, that there were no specific provisions in the law requiring 1 mile straight for every 5 miles generally.  That would be an engineering nightmare in mountainous terrain.

As is proved on a good portion of I-40 in Tennessee going through the mtns between nashville and knoxville. There's spots that the only straight, level piece of roadway that could possibly be suitable for any type of aircraft operations are the bridges going over rivers and such.

[JohnKachenmeister]

While i would prefer a nice field, i think i would take my chances on the road before the trees.  and if you can land in a Strong cross wind you might be able to get a good enough crab angle that you could fit in the 25-30 feet.

We were talking about the planned use of sections of interstates (NOT 2-lane country roads) as emergency military airfields.  Not emergency landings, per se, but landing USAF aircraft on them in order to rearm them and send them back up to fight if their bases had been nuked.

Eisenhower got the idea from the Germans, who used the Autobahn as a runway for planes up to and including the ME-262.  It was also included in the thinking for Operation Recovery.  I do believe, however, that there were no specific provisions in the law requiring 1 mile straight for every 5 miles generally.  That would be an engineering nightmare in mountainous terrain.

As is proved on a good portion of I-40 in Tennessee going through the mtns between nashville and knoxville. There's spots that the only straight, level piece of roadway that could possibly be suitable for any type of aircraft operations are the bridges going over rivers and such.

Been there.  Also the switchback section near Cold Mountain between Gatlinburg and Asheville, NC.  The only straight road stretches are in tunnels, which are notoriously hard to land in!