Cadets requirements to wear AF-style flight suit

[joshmwilliams]

I have been browsing through CAPM-39-1 trying to find statements on requirements for CAP cadets to wear AF-style flight suits.  On numerous occasions (Page 96 Fig. 7, Table 5-1 Line 11) it is mentioned that cadets are permitted to wear flight suits.  But, I cannot seem to find the requirements to wear such uniform


Thanks for the help,
C/A1C Williams

[lordmonar]

Because they are not "required" to wear the flight suit....no one is.

[joshmwilliams]

Poorly worded on my part, apologies. I would like to wear the AF-style flight suit.  Is there any requirements such as flight crew that I need to meet (I know, and am well within grooming and weight).

[jeders]

Per 39-1, flight suits are for Aircrew Only, which I doubt you, as a C/A1C, are.

That being said, if you really want to wear the flight suit and you feel you have a good justification for it, take it to your leadership and see if they will allow it. Also keep in mind, even if you are eligible to wear the flight suit, your local leadership can say, "no one wears the flight suit."

[joshmwilliams]

Does my squadron command (CoC) have the discretion to make that decision or does it have to go higher (Wing)?

[lordmonar]

Does my squadron command (CoC) have the discretion to make that decision or does it have to go higher (Wing)?

Absolutely!
Your squadron commander sets uniform policy for your unit....with in the confines of 39-1 and any published suplements.

[jeders]

Does my squadron command (CoC) have the discretion to make that decision or does it have to go higher (Wing)?

Absolutely!
Your squadron commander sets uniform policy for your unit....with in the confines of 39-1 and any published suplements.

What he said.

[Eclipse]

+1 with the asterisk that a unit commander can prescribe any uniform for senior members, but may only prescribe the MBU for cadets, or uniform items which are issued to the cadets.

So unless he either issues the flight suits, he can't mandate them for cadets.  Same goes for BDUs.

[jeders]

+1 with the asterisk that a unit commander can prescribe any uniform for senior members, but may only prescribe the MBU for cadets, or uniform items which are issued to the cadets.

So unless he either issues the flight suits or the cadets voluntarily buy them, he can't mandate them for cadets.  Same goes for BDUs.

FTFY. The commander can also say that cadets cannot wear the flight suit so that you don't have one or two cadets sticking out like a sore thumb.

[lordmonar]

+1 with the asterisk that a unit commander can prescribe any uniform for senior members, but may only prescribe the MBU for cadets, or uniform items which are issued to the cadets.

So unless he either issues the flight suits, he can't mandate them for cadets.  Same goes for BDUs.

I know that is in the regulation.....but in practice is just not supported.

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure what you mean? 

In my parts setting the UOD is getting more and more common.

[lordmonar]

I'm not sure what you mean? 

In my parts setting the UOD is getting more and more common.

I mean the part where the commander can't mandate BDUs......unless issued.
I give you just about every encampment required packing list as evidance.

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure what you mean? 

In my parts setting the UOD is getting more and more common.

I mean the part where the commander can't mandate BDUs......unless issued.
I give you just about every encampment required packing list as evidence.

Agreed, but at the bottom of the conversation is the reality that we could not bar a cadet from participation who claimed to
not have BDU's.  The reality is that they can always scrounge something, but if he said "no gots", we'd have to allow him to
participate in his blues all week or some alternate like PT.  In my mind that would not relieve him from losing points in the
inspections, etc., but at least he'd be there.

[Woodsy]

Per 39-1, flight suits are for Aircrew Only, which I doubt you, as a C/A1C, are.

That being said, if you really want to wear the flight suit and you feel you have a good justification for it, take it to your leadership and see if they will allow it. Also keep in mind, even if you are eligible to wear the flight suit, your local leadership can say, "no one wears the flight suit."

The ONLY justification for a cadet wearing a flight suit would be if that cadet is undergoing approved CAP flight training or has an ES aeronautical rating.  And if ac/A1C has a rating, I have a major problem with that to begin with! You can't wear it because you like it or it looks cool, stick to blues or BDU's.

[Woodsy]

I'm not sure what you mean? 

In my parts setting the UOD is getting more and more common.

I mean the part where the commander can't mandate BDUs......unless issued.
I give you just about every encampment required packing list as evidence.

Agreed, but at the bottom of the conversation is the reality that we could not bar a cadet from participation who claimed to
not have BDU's.  The reality is that they can always scrounge something, but if he said "no gots", we'd have to allow him to
participate in his blues all week or some alternate like PT.  In my mind that would not relieve him from losing points in the
inspections, etc., but at least he'd be there.

Hmm...  I'm not too familiar with CP or the regs that govern it...  but is this in writing anywhere???  I see events all the time that require cadets to wear a certain uniform, and if you don't own it, don't come...

[Eclipse]

Hmm...  I'm not too familiar with CP or the regs that govern it...  but is this in writing anywhere???  I see events all the time that require cadets to wear a certain uniform, and if you don't own it, don't come...

Yes - 39-1 page 5:

1-5. Uniform Combinations.  Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication.  Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below.  Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis.  Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit.  However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed.  It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform. 
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms.  Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other  optional uniform items only if the  purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

Ergo - a commander is free to prescribe the UOD, but unless CAP has issued that uniform to the cadet(s), it can't be mandated.

This does not apply to seniors.

[Woodsy]

OK, I see an easy way out-  Activities are optional.  Cadet doesn't have to come.

[Eclipse]

OK, I see an easy way out-  Activities are optional.  Cadet doesn't have to come.

Yes, though it depends on which side of the argument you're on.  You can't use that argument to bar participation.

GT isn't as clear, since the uniform is considered part of required equipment, and the task guides call out the BDU, specifically.
UDF makes no prescription beyond "appropriate".

[Garibaldi]

OK, I see an easy way out-  Activities are optional.  Cadet doesn't have to come.

Yes, though it depends on which side of the argument you're on.  You can't use that argument to bar participation.

GT isn't as clear, since the uniform is considered part of required equipment, and the task guides call out the BDU, specifically.
UDF makes no prescription beyond "appropriate".

Aha...and therein lies the rub. IF you use a POV to do your UDF work, then "appropriate" can mean anything from loincloths to tuxedos. However, for GT work, the BDU is required by the task guide BECAUSE if you happen to get in a MVA in a CAP VAN, you're covered under insurance. Same with aircrew. As long as you're in the required uniform while performing tasks under a USAF mission number, you're covered IN THAT ASPECT.

Getting back on topic, barring participation for not having the proper uniform is a sticky subject. While I am a uniform nutzi, I don't think that I can bar someone from participating because they don't have a proper uniform. I can always find something for them to do that doesn't require them to be in public view as far as GT duties go.

Meetings are a little more flexible. When I was DCC I was adamant that Tango Flight wore black and whites. If they got a whole uniform while in Tango I made sure that they wore it properly BEFORE they got promoted out.

The UOD has always been set by my CC prior to the next meeting. He always gives us an option to wear BDUs or the Golf Shirt combo, or blues/grey and whites. I am probably the only senior who prefers to wear BDUs, aside from those working with the cadets. Flight suits are only worn by the AFROTC guys that come help out, mainly because those guys are in the flight program in college and are authorized to wear them.

IMO, flight suits should be authorized for cadets over 18 who are training to be MS or MO. And, I was always taught that if you don't have all the parts to your uniform, you don't wear the uniform.

Just my $.02

[Eclipse]

Aha...and therein lies the rub. IF you use a POV to do your UDF work, then "appropriate" can mean anything from loincloths to tuxedos. However, for GT work, the BDU is required by the task guide BECAUSE if you happen to get in a MVA in a CAP VAN, you're covered under insurance. Same with aircrew. As long as you're in the required uniform while performing tasks under a USAF mission number, you're covered IN THAT ASPECT.

The BDU is required by the task guide because someone felt a field uniform was most appropriate.  It has nothing to do with maybe riding in a van,
and the rules are no different for UDF - you can't do a UDF mission in a POV in civilian clothes, there's just no specification on which CAP uniform to wear,
with the subtext being the golf shirt or a dress uniform is "OK" since you're not allowed to go anywhere but urban areas on hard surface.

Getting back on topic, barring participation for not having the proper uniform is a sticky subject. While I am a uniform nutzi, I don't think that I can bar someone from participating because they don't have a proper uniform. I can always find something for them to do that doesn't require them to be in public view as far as GT duties go.

Of course you can.

The verbiage is very clear - GT = BDU.  If you sign in as a GT, and get hurt in blues, your coverage could well be at risk.  That is no different then
not having 24 hour gear.  In this context, the BDU is considered equipment, not a "uniform".