Uniform for this weekends Parade

[capbobsand]

This Saturday our squadron along with several others are going to march in the very large San Diego Gay Pride Parade. We have been invited to march along with our Air Force brethren with the Civil Air Patrol leading a large contingent in our AF Blues. The DOD has authorized all military members to wear their official uniform for the parade. The Civil Air Patrol to my knowledge has not come out with anything official like the DOD. The California Wing has also been mute on this when asked. Is it safe to say we can all wear our uniforms with our squadron CO's approval? This is going to be a great event to showcase the Civil Air Patrol and our diverse membership. It will also be a great recruitment opportunity for all of us. We right now have over 50 CAP members (Cadets/Seniors) and 300 Military Members signed up.  :clap:

http://news.yahoo.com/members-march-gay-pride-parade-215510972.html

[Eclipse]

If this is an approved activity, you wear whatever your unit CC tells you to wear.

[cadetesman]

This seems like it could get rather controversial...

[abdsp51]

This seems like it could get rather controversial...

It very well could.

[Garibaldi]

Much as I hate to say it, this sounds like a parade aimed in a political direction...which CAP regs specifically state that uniforms can't be worn to. I personally support LGBT rights and if something like this came to our Bible Belt area, I'd be the first to show support. But I don't think CAP and a gay rights parade will mix. Too many close-minded people equate gays with child molesters, and that's something the Boy Scouts have made pretty clear with their bylaws against gay scout leaders. "Oh, no, them gayfolk are gonna turn our kids into hommasekshuls."

I'm not saying don't do it, but the dividing line between showing support for the LGBT community and the parade being a political act needs to be durn clear. If your CC approves of it, then do it. I applaud your courage in taking a stand on this.  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Most people wouldn't, especially in my neck of the woods.

[Brad]

I don't think there are enough eggshells in the world to walk over this issue. I saw the article about the DOD letting military members wear their uniforms in the parade, and it mentioned it is a one-time exception. I can understand the military members' desire to do this for their personal reasons, however with CAP and moreover the concepts of the cadet programs and what parents feel comfortable with their children being exposed to, it becomes a whole new ballgame.

Plus, the exception the DOD is speaking of is the same one that CAP gets its uniform restrictions from in CAPM 39-1. AFI 36-2903 section 1.4.2 says the Air Force uniform will not be worn, "While participating in public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches or rallies or in any public demonstration when participation may imply Air Force sanction of the cause." CAP of course has similar restrictions, in CAPM 39-1 table 1-1 marked under do not wear: "when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted."

See then the issue of "approval" comes into play. Has Ma' Blue and the DOD given "approval" to this, or by exception do they mean they simply are looking the other way in light of DADT being lifted?

Note that 39-1 says the Squadron CC can designate WHICH uniform is worn, not the wear or non-wear. Only 39-1 can tell us that.

[Eclipse]

See then the issue of "approval" comes into play. Has Ma' Blue and the DOD given "approval" to this, or by exception do they mean they simply are looking the other way in light of DADT being lifted?

For all the reasons stated, I would say that the Wing CC should be directly consulted regarding the approval of this activity.

[Майор Хаткевич]

On the CAP side of the house, I'm thinking this is an issue that needs to be addressed WELL above Squadron/Group, maybe even Wing level.

Now, when it comes to parades like this, at least in Chicago we have local and state politicians with floats, veterans groups, and I THINK I saw some Navy service members, but I can't say if they were doing it against regs, out of service, or something other.

[SarDragon]

I do not see this ending well. Your CC needs to get the Wing CC involved.

[abdsp51]

I do not see this ending well. Your CC needs to get the Wing CC involved.

+1 and I guess our CSAF & CMSAF must have missed sending that memo out.

[capbobsand]

California Wing has been notified via email two weeks ago, but no response and everyone's plans are already in the works. NHQ also knows about this via email one week ago, but again mute. We had an official meeting a few hours ago with the event staff to include San Diego Mayor and they are looking forward to us being in the parade representing the CAP. After this weekend there will probably be several news stories about the CAP and all the military services involved. This has been brought up to the highest levels, but when the emails are ignored we need to follow our squadron CC as stated. This is classified by the DOD as a non-political event and that is why the Sec of Def is authorizing the military to wear their uniforms. I and all the rest of the CAP cadets/Senior Members participating look at this being a great way to showcase to the world the great things CAP does for their communities. This is actually turning into something bigger than just a local parade and we want to make sure CAP is represented properly and per the regulations, so no member ends up in trouble. So far it is just the squadron CC approval for everyone. It would turn into a real black eye for CAP if at this point two days to go we were told otherwise by NHQ. Everything is already ordered and set. Recruiting material is ready and as well as other information about how we serve America as volunteers. Semper Vigilans!

[lordmonar]

I wonder why you posted your question here at all.

You seem to have done your due dilegince in getting wing and national to veto it.
You have followed your chain of command...for lack of guidance.
You seem to indicate that the USAF does not have a problem with it.

You got your ducks in a row......have fun......but beware the fall out.

[capbobsand]

I don't think there are enough eggshells in the world to walk over this issue. I saw the article about the DOD letting military members wear their uniforms in the parade, and it mentioned it is a one-time exception. I can understand the military members' desire to do this for their personal reasons, however with CAP and moreover the concepts of the cadet programs and what parents feel comfortable with their children being exposed to, it becomes a whole new ballgame.

Plus, the exception the DOD is speaking of is the same one that CAP gets its uniform restrictions from in CAPM 39-1. AFI 36-2903 section 1.4.2 says the Air Force uniform will not be worn, "While participating in public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches or rallies or in any public demonstration when participation may imply Air Force sanction of the cause." CAP of course has similar restrictions, in CAPM 39-1 table 1-1 marked under do not wear: "when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted."

See then the issue of "approval" comes into play. Has Ma' Blue and the DOD given "approval" to this, or by exception do they mean they simply are looking the other way in light of DADT being lifted?

Note that 39-1 says the Squadron CC can designate WHICH uniform is worn, not the wear or non-wear. Only 39-1 can tell us that.

Sir,

Just for the record, "Ma' Blue" has approved this as per the attachement from the Assistant Sec Def. http://sdpride.org/xinha_user/files/Request_for_Guidance_Regarding_the_SD_Pride_Parade.pdf

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I wonder why you posted your question here at all.

You seem to have done your due dilegince in getting wing and national to veto it.
You have followed your chain of command...for lack of guidance.
You seem to indicate that the USAF does not have a problem with it.

You got your ducks in a row......have fun......but beware the fall out.

And I'd lay odds there will be some fallout.

DADT hasn't been repealed that long, and the Armed Forces are still trying to figure out how to comply.  I wonder how MTI's and their counterparts in the other Services are dealing with it in BMT.

Culturally, San Diego is very different from, for example, the Southeast and Midwest/Plains.  There are still a lot of people who don't like it that DADT has been repealed.  This is a big country with a lot of people who have widely divergent points of view.

My feeling about this isn't that it's just an LGBT issue.  What consenting adults do in their private lives is of no concern to me.

Something about this just smells of "political minefield."

[NC Hokie]

Just for the record, "Ma' Blue" has approved this as per the attachement from the Assistant Sec Def. http://sdpride.org/xinha_user/files/Request_for_Guidance_Regarding_the_SD_Pride_Parade.pdf

California Wing has been notified via email two weeks ago, but no response and everyone's plans are already in the works. NHQ also knows about this via email one week ago, but again mute.

This is just my personal opinion, but I'd be hesitant to participate in this event based on the justifications quoted above. DOD approval may not apply to CAP (being that we're incorporated as a civilian auxilliary of the USAF), and I would NEVER take silence from higher headquarters as tacit approval for something that, by regulations, is either forbidden or falls into a gray area like this.

Think of it this way: If this evolves into some sort of political statement, DOD can't do anything about the participants other than say "approving this was a mistake that we won't make again." CAP, on the other hand, can legitimately say "they didn't have approval to do this," and initiate separation proceedings at will.

Also, as a leader, I absolutely would NOT tell my subordinates that it's okay because DOD is cool with it and higher HQ has not said no. I would honestly explain the situation, be up front about the potential risks, and tell them that they are responsible for any actions that come about as a result of their participation.

[abdsp51]

Also an assistant secretary signed the memo addressing to the services but that does mean that AF has approved it.  Huge difference here of you have a memo from SECAF, CSAF, OR CMSAF please link it, if not you need to state the actual party. 

Not to mention even though we are an auxillary we are a private corporation as well.

[Garibaldi]

This is a firm case against "Silence gives assent". I would venture a guess that CAWG and NATHQ are remaining silent until it becomes a non-issue, which would be the parade going on without the participation of CAWG members due to no clear ruling on participation.

[754837]

My guess is the OP is trying to stir up a big, nasty debate on CAP Talk.  His first posts are on one of the most controversial topics ever!  Anyway, this is just one man's opinion...

[Eclipse]

Something a lot of members misunderstand - "Aware" does not equal "Approved". 

I would be calling the Wing CC and getting his explicit approval.

[lordmonar]

This is a firm case against "Silence gives assent". I would venture a guess that CAWG and NATHQ are remaining silent until it becomes a non-issue, which would be the parade going on without the participation of CAWG members due to no clear ruling on participation.

Yes....but on that same vein......If higher headquarters gives no guidance.....then the leaders asking the question are left to their best judgement.
It is bad leadership then to hammer the participants for their "bad judgement" when you were aware of the event but did not take action to stop it.

Even a "Stand by while we check this this out", in stead of a straight up Yes/No would be better then silence.