Blaming younger cadets for being late

[Nathan]

So how do people feel about chastising cadets about tardiness to a meeting when they were driven by their parents? I've been seeing it happen at my squadron after we started opening our meetings up thirty minutes earlier than usual (which was good), but I've never felt comfortable with the practice.

If a cadet is driving himself, that's one thing, and I have no problem holding a cadet responsible for being late under those conditions. On the other hand, if it's the parent driving, there isn't really much that the cadet can do about it. It's based off of the parental schedule and motivation, not the cadet's, and scolding the cadet for not being naggy enough doesn't really seem like it's going to be a useful tactic. Perhaps it's worth talking to the parent if the lateness is severe enough, but I'm more of the mind that we should just be scheduling something like drill for the first thirty minutes of the meeting so that it's not a huge deal should the cadets show up late.

Thoughts?

[jimmydeanno]

I give them a hard time about it, and stress the importance of arriving on time.  However, I know that it's rarely something within their control, and don't really hold it against them.  However, I've noticed that when they are "getting in trouble" for being late, they tend to stress the importance of being on time to mom and dad, who in turn start arriving a bit earlier.

I've had a few parents ask me why I'm so big on the cadets arriving on time, and reminded them that they're paying for their kid to be here, so they might as well get the most out of it, their kid is missing out on instruction, their kid looks like a dufus strolling in 15 minutes late when everyone else is there (embarrassing), amongst other things. 

So do I chastise them?  Yes, but it in a way that signifies their obligation to let mom and dad know they're supposed to be on time.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Since I was a cadet, and parent schedules WERE important early on...

I'd nag and nag to get out the door by XX:XX in order to make it to the meeting on time.

However, sometimes parents would come home a bit late from work, or doctors appointment, etc.

My first approach now would be to ask the cadet the reason. If it's a parent just back from work, then they are doing the best they can, and we can probably work something out. If it's just because they got a late start, then this is where they can be motivated to encourage an earlier departure time. 

[Eclipse]

Define "chastise".

And are we talking about habitual tardiness, or the occasional unusual circumstance?

[Flying Pig]

Ill relay my story about being late as a cadet.

I was often coming right in as they were falling in or just after.  My family was a one car family at the time, my dad would get home from work grab something to eat and we would hit the road for the 30 minute drive to CAP.  And at the time, my family had NO money and getting to CAP was a financial battle as it was.  All of the other cadets lived pretty close.  I didn't, and it was the closest CAP unit that had a cadet program.
I was always getting "counseled" and even "gigged" which was like a system of demerits or something (this was 25yrs ago so I don't really recall) I would repeatedly explain the circumstances and was always told it was my responsibility to get to CAP on time.  One cadet commander even told me I needed to talk to my dad about him getting off work early on CAP nights.  Yeah....OK.    If mom or dad or whoever is the cause of them being late, then lay off the cadet.  I recall always feeling like S--T because I was always being "dealt with" as one senior member put it, for something neither my parents or I had any control over.  It actually got to the point once that I was just going to quit CAP because I was getting so much flak over being 5-10 minutes late.  My parents didn't need reminded or their son chastised to know the importance of being on time.  So I would just suggest learning the details before anyone starts lecturing a cadet or worse, lecturing a parent and then finding out that them getting their son to CAP, even if its 10 minutes late is a major logistical and financial burden.  Nothing wrong with asking, but watch how you approach it or you may end up with an ear full from a parent who is doing everything they can just to be there at all. 

There was a period of time when I was in CAP that I remember going to the refrigerator and finding nothing but a couple apples and a bottle of ketchup or something like that in the refrigerator.  Later in life, I learned that there were days my dad went without lunch at work the next day because he used his "lunch money" for gas to get me to CAP and back.  Fortunately for him, CAP was thursday nights, and payday for him was friday.  So just tread lightly before anyone starts viewing late parents or cadets as people who need lectured about the importance of being on time.  And never have a cadet talk to the parents. 
They made it work, but it wasn't always easy for them.  My parents are pretty proud people who ran into some hard times related to medical bills and layoffs all at once back then. 

[NIN]

I lived a 25-30 minute drive from my unit BITD (that was a Wednesday, BTW).  My unit neglected to tell me that I actually lived about 4 miles from the *nearest* unit (gee, thanks). 

So Wednesday nights, mom would trundle my 9 year old brother and me into this old clunker of the Chevy station wagon we had and off I'd go to CAP (trying like heck not to get anything on my uniform from the car seats. Gosh, that car was a mess). Some days, we'd make it to the 7pm meeting by 6:45.  Sometimes, not till 6:58.  Didn't help that we were driving past like half the major auto plants in Southern Macomb County at the tail end of "rush hour."  When we had some friends in the unit who lived near us, our moms would trade off driving to CAP.  When my friend Eric's mom would drive, we would nearly universally be late, and when we'd go pick Eric up, he'd almost always was never ready in time.  Got to be a real drag.

But I was 15 and didn't have a license. I can tell my mom all day long "Hey, mom, we've gotta get Eric tonight, so we need to step by 1800," but when we pull up to Eric's and he's shooting hoops in his driveway in his civvies, we're gonna be a late.

And c/TSgt or not, I couldn't seem to get it thru his thick c/A1C skull that Wednesday nights he should be in his uniform by 1800, not getting sweaty on the pavement.

We would be late, bombing into the Jr High we met at while the squadron was standing inspection.  Uh oh.

And yeah, I got railed on: "Sergeant, why are you late?"  "Well, sir, my mom ran into traffic.."  "Well, your mom isn't a member of the squadron. You are."  "You're right, sir. But my mom has the car keys and the driver's license, and I don't.  If you'd like, I can have her come inside at the end of the meeting and you can yell at her yourself."  (Yeah, this attitude of mine was more of a problem causer than a problem solver..)

When I got my license a year later, it was different.  I was still late, but it was because I was a chowderhead.  Then the lesson was appropriate.

[Eclipse]

People establish priorities based on their personal assessment of the level of urgency.
Why you're late doesn't change the fact that you're late.

Flying Pig, I can empathize with your personal situation, and the effort to get to CAP at all, but I don't see how that's really relevant to
the bigger discussion.  I get this all the time - paragraphs of reasons why people can't do "whatever" in CAP. In most cases, like yours,
the reasons are valid and sometimes non-negotiable, but at the end of the conversation, it doesn't usually matter the "why", especially
since in 99% of the cases, CAP has no way to impact the situation.

At encampment every year we see the same thing - somehow cadets are able to find a way to drive 6-8+ hours from another state
and still make it well before the gates are closed, yet local cadets with 1/4 of the drive are sliding under the entrance 5 minutes late - worse
still are the repeat offenders who know what a nightmare traffic South of the base can be yet still seem unable to plan, yet the ultimate answer is you're
either there, or you aren't.

Again, no younger cadet who's doing his best and dependent on others should be getting wall-to-walls about being a few minutes late once in a while,
but if it's habitual, it will impact their experience, and sets a bad tone for all of those who are on time.  And what about when compartitive decisions
have to be made for a staff job, etc.?  Should Cadet 1 not be penalized (compared to cadet 2) for his in ability to get to the unit on time
just because it's "not his fault"?

Another interesting phenomena I've encountered is the cadets who are involved in sports and CAP - the ones who would never dream of being late to a practice or miss a game, but who have no issues with being late to meetings and no call / no shows to CAP activities.  Why?  Because the coaches had drawn a line that says "you're late?, you're benched" and no one seems to have any issue with that, yet when CAP makes the occasional exception for
the same behavior, it quickly becomes the norm.

We have to have sensitivity and common sense in these matters, but again, why you're late or not there is generally irrelevant.

[Jquick]

This topic is a slippery slope.   I agree with the fact that a cadet, who has the ability to self transport to drills, should be held to a standard, i.e. the meeting starts a 1830, so at 1831 your late.  With this being said, chastising, which I am assuming is not the what the author intended, as it implies punishment, or extreme discipline, is not appropriate if the cadet is being transported to drills by family.   When I was a cadet officer, and later a Cadet Programs Officer, there were acceptable reasons for being late. 

•   School related activities that conflicted with meeting times.
•   Family transporting
•   Auto Trouble

These are just a few that we would review on a case by case basis, and seeing as everyone on this rock has a cell phone, no one should be arriving late unannounced.  My recommendation is this, If said cadet is perpetually late, due to their parents, then the senior member staff of said SQ should do their jobs, and stress the importance to the parents directly.  This will avert a potential volatile  situation.  As a parent myself, if my child came home upset after being disciplined for something that was my fault, I would take issue with it.  DO NOT LET THIS SITUATION OCCUR!  I have had to deal with extremely angry parents who felt that their child was unfairly treated, and this situation is not good for anyone involved.  Remember, we are not the military, and can't enforce regulation with gross punishment.

In an issue such as this, you cadet officers need to bring this to the attention to senior member Sq staff, and Senior members need to step up and  do your jobs and discuss with the parents the importance of being to drills in a timely manner, for the continuity of the squadron.   

[knifehand]

I don't see how this is a slippery slope... If they're late, they're late. The cadets need to learn that it is their duty as members of an organization that they signed up for and payed money for to show up to meetings or activities or whatever on time... Who cares if they can't drive? They can nag. And if they can't drive, don't hold it against them, just give them a hard time and make them feel like it's bad. Simple.

[SarDragon]

I think you need to throttle back on the harsh there, sunshine. It isn't polite to come into someone's forum and make like king of the hill after just a few posts.

We certainly welcome new members but there are rules.

[RogueLeader]

I don't see how this is a slippery slope... If they're late, they're late. The cadets need to learn that it is their duty as members of an organization that they signed up for and payed money for to show up to meetings or activities or whatever on time... Who cares if they can't drive? They can nag. And if they can't drive, don't hold it against them, just give them a hard time and make them feel like it's bad. Simple.

Ok. So I nag every week and they nag their parents. They feel bad, but nothing changes as their parents can't change it. They know late=bad. Now what?

[knifehand]

I think you need to throttle back on the harsh there, sunshine. It isn't polite to come into someone's forum and make like king of the hill after just a few posts.

We certainly welcome new members but there are rules.

So ban me. Freedom of speech, buck-o. We all have it, and if you don't like what I'm saying, please see the beginning of this post.

[knifehand]

I don't see how this is a slippery slope... If they're late, they're late. The cadets need to learn that it is their duty as members of an organization that they signed up for and payed money for to show up to meetings or activities or whatever on time... Who cares if they can't drive? They can nag. And if they can't drive, don't hold it against them, just give them a hard time and make them feel like it's bad. Simple.

Ok. So I nag every week and they nag their parents. They feel bad, but nothing changes as their parents can't change it. They know late=bad. Now what?

Nag directly to the parents.

[Eclipse]

They know late=bad. Now what?

Chronic lateness with no good excuse has to have ramifications.  Demerits, poor review board, etc.

People make choices and decide what is important.  No school would allow the behavior, nor would most
sports teams, why should CAP?

[PHall]

I think you need to throttle back on the harsh there, sunshine. It isn't polite to come into someone's forum and make like king of the hill after just a few posts.

We certainly welcome new members but there are rules.

So ban me. Freedom of speech, buck-o. We all have it, and if you don't like what I'm saying, please see the beginning of this post.

It's a private board, buck-o. The Mods make the rules and it's follow them or your gone, simple as that.

[RogueLeader]

They know late=bad. Now what?

Chronic lateness with no good excuse has to have ramifications.  Demerits, poor review board, etc.

Yup. Say parents can NOT make it sooner the 15 min after?  That is not the cadets fault, nor the parents life. Nagging won't change and gets everybody's blood pressure up.

In other cases, yes understood.

I don't see how this is a slippery slope... If they're late, they're late. The cadets need to learn that it is their duty as members of an organization that they signed up for and payed money for to show up to meetings or activities or whatever on time... Who cares if they can't drive? They can nag. And if they can't drive, don't hold it against them, just give them a hard time and make them feel like it's bad. Simple.

Ok. So I nag every week and they nag their parents. They feel bad, but nothing changes as their parents can't change it. They know late=bad. Now what?

Nag directly to the parents.

Doesn't work. Now what?

[Eclipse]

It's still not negotiable - the "why" isn't relevant to you as the commander, and if we're talking 15 minutes then there's likely a "give" somewhere.
If you're concerned to the point where just telling them "how it is" isn't acceptable, then restructure the meetings so he's not late - have something
less formal or do the "typical loose-format PD / BS" session (etc) at the beginning of the meeting and shoo people home on time.

There's really only two choices - either he changes or the unit changes.  Constant tardiness, regardless of the reason, sets a precedent you don't want for him and the others in the unit.

The other factor to consider is that the situation is only going to get worse - as he progresses and wants to attain leadership positions, the expectation will likely be that he's not only on time, but early to prepare for those in his charge.  Having a flight CC or higher coming in late every meeting just isn't going to be acceptable and will impact the experience for those in his flight, etc.

[knifehand]

I think you need to throttle back on the harsh there, sunshine. It isn't polite to come into someone's forum and make like king of the hill after just a few posts.

We certainly welcome new members but there are rules.

So ban me. Freedom of speech, buck-o. We all have it, and if you don't like what I'm saying, please see the beginning of this post.

It's a private board, buck-o. The Mods make the rules and it's follow them or your gone, simple as that.

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

[knifehand]

It's still not negotiable - the "why" isn't relevant to you as the commander, and if we're talking 15 minutes then there's likely a "give" somewhere.
If you're concerned to the point where just telling them "how it is" isn't acceptable, then restructure the meetings so he's not late - have something
less formal or do the "typical loose-format PD / BS" session (etc) at the beginning of the meeting and shoo people home on time.

There's really only two choices - either he changes or the unit changes.  Constant tardiness, regardless of the reason, sets a precedent you don't want for him and the others in the unit.

The other factor to consider is that the situation is only going to get worse - as he progresses and wants to attain leadership positions, the expectation will likely be that he's not only on time, but early to prepare for those in his charge.  Having a flight CC or higher coming in late every meeting just isn't going to be acceptable and will impact the experience for those in his flight, etc.

THIS.

/thread

[CAP4117]

As was previously stated, in case you didn't read my comment Mr. Sir Person, THEN BAN ME.

I see his request was granted