National Power Academy

[flyguy06]

I wouldnt want to create a weeding out process either but on that same note, lets be honest everyone that WANTS to be a pilot is NOT cut out to be a pilot. dcpacemaekr, are you suggesting a program where we coddle to the cadets and make them feel comfortable and let them solo even if they arent uo to par? What CFI is going to sign off on that?

I say yes make it military. CAP is a miitary organization isnt it? I dont mean exactly like UPT cause those young LT's are gettin gpaid for one thing. But make the course challeneging. and give them a taste of what UPT is like. Whats wrong withthat? Yes, I know that ATCFC does. I went to it when I was a cadet. But you dont get to fly there. Encampmets are military why not Flight academies?

[Pace]

I wouldnt want to create a weeding out process either but on that same note, lets be honest everyone that WANTS to be a pilot is NOT cut out to be a pilot. dcpacemaekr, are you suggesting a program where we coddle to the cadets and make them feel comfortable and let them solo even if they arent uo to par? What CFI is going to sign off on that?

No, I'm not suggesting coddling anyone.  I'm stating that it's fine just like it is.  It's hard enough for most people to come in with limited aviation knowledge and solo in 7 days.  It's challenging enough on that level alone.  And if they're not on par, the CFI isn't going to endorse their medical or their logbook for solo flight.  If they endorse someone that isn't ready, the NFA environment isn't the problem, the CFI is the problem.

But make the course challeneging.

It already is.

and give them a taste of what UPT is like.  Whats wrong withthat? Yes, I know that ATCFC does. I went to it when I was a cadet. But you dont get to fly there.

Actually you do.  I have .5 hours "logged" in the T-6 Texan II sim.  Plus everyone got to fly in (albeit, not pilot) the T-1.  That aside, the purpose of the NFA is not to give cadets a taste of SUPT.  Remember, not everyone going through NFA wants to be a military aviator.  If that is their goal, that's why SUPTFC exists.

Encampmets are military why not Flight academies?

NFAs aren't encampments.  There are also other National Cadet Special Activities that are not military oriented by your standards (although they are disciplined in their own way).

[flyguy06]

Ok Iwill yiled that I didnt know the NFA was a wek. I thought it was two. That is  a little more challenging, but I didnt say make it like UPT. But put some military in it. CAP is a military type organization so every program wheather it be an encampment, NCSA or eekly meeting should have aspect of military leadership in it. Cadets still need to learn leadership.

I am talking about things like stand ups, having a cadet responsible for the group. You may already do that I have never been to a NFA which is why I originally asked the question.  I am not knocking it. I am just making some suggestions

[DNall]

I'm 99.9% sure we're on the same page.  That kind of discipline is characteristic of the one I went to and others that I've heard about.  I see nothing wrong with that, but it's a far cry from a SUPT environment.  I just caught what you said about making it more military disciplined in response to a suggestion for SUPT style training and wanted to jump in with my two cents.

I at no point said anything like SUPT. I said there are elements of military flight training that can be mimicked at no cost or interference to improve dramatically the experience. Low time pilots, civilian or military, are a lot more accident prone, and that's mostly cause they're complacent & either never learned or have forgotten the importance of those life skills we teach at the pre-curry level. Connecting the dots for them causes the wealth of that prior knowledge they have to be brought to bear on their flight training psyche & that's good all around.

Strategically though, the reason that we do this training is to improve the people going thru the training & the people they touch because of it, not the technical skill they learn while there. Kids don't understand why they learn drill or why they have to wear their uniform right. I mean if their nametape is sewn on wrong, that isn't going to stop them from finding a crashed plane right? But the attention to detail learned thru simple & sometimes meaningless tasks translates to attention to detail being second nature on not so simple tasks when people's lives & safety depend on it. I think above most anything else we could do with these folks that demonstrating the tie in between those skills learned in previous military training & the flight training they are going thru is huge. that makes them better cadets & better people who then come back & reinforce those points to junior cadets who are still trying to figure out why anyone cares if their uniform looks right or not.

I think if you can do a couple little things here & there to connect those dots for them while experiencing this stepping stone of flight training that you can do a great service to the cadet program & to the individuals lucky enough to attend one of these activities.

That's corollary to all training that cadets receive, but the NFA program in a vacuum is one dedicated to giving cadets a leap forward in their endeavor to becoming pilots.

My point is it should NOT exist in a vacuum or be an objective in itself & unconnected to everything else. It should connect those dots or it should not be done at all.

[eehite]

Having initially soloed at an NFA and then later returned to teach the ground side, I can say with conviction that the program is where it needs to be in terms of military structure. The comfortable uniforms and more "academic" environment help participants focus on learning. I also endorse the first-name basis between students and instructors--it helps the students focus on good flying and less on formalities.

[Jolt]

I guess it would be like the difference between HMRS and NESA.

[flyguy06]

Having initially soloed at an NFA and then later returned to teach the ground side, I can say with conviction that the program is where it needs to be in terms of military structure. The comfortable uniforms and more "academic" environment help participants focus on learning. I also endorse the first-name basis between students and instructors--it helps the students focus on good flying and less on formalities.

SO, you're telling me that Air Force student dont focus on learning because they have to say Capt so and so instead of using their first name? And these guys are flying jets not single engine props. I have to disagree with that. Wheather you call someone bytheir first name or a more formal approach will not make you learn better or less.

Actually at the flight camp I volunteer for, the students have call signs and are addresed by their indiviual call signs.

I like the idea that Texas has their own flight academy. Thats an idea.

[flyguy06]

Why is everyone on this board so anti-military?

[Jolt]

For the record, all of the senior members at NFA-G were addressed as sir or ma'am.  All of the students went by their first names exclusively.  I convinced a bunch of people I was a C/SrA for the week, mostly everyone except my friend from the same squadron and my room mates believed me.  That's how informal it was.

We did a formation at the beginning of every day in our activity uniforms and formed up and saluted as the flag was raised.  We never saluted except for the last day when we wore uniforms for the graduation.  We still used first names between cadets because we were almost all friends by that point.

I liked it just the way it was.

[Pace]

Why is everyone on this board so anti-military?

Not anti-military, just tired of change because one person or one sect wants change for change sake.  If it ain't broke (which it isn't), leave it alone.  The current environment is extremely conductive to learning the way it is.  And I can't seem to stress this enough: not everyone at NFA wants a glimpse into SUPT (if they did, guess where they'd go).  At least 3 of the cadets in my 2003 NFA class wanted to go corporate/airlines.  Yes, by all means, they can build on the skills they've learned so far in CAP, but the goal of the activity itself is to teach the cadet to solo an airplane or a glider.  That goal is being accomplished each year in a very effective and efficient manner.

For the record, all of the senior members at NFA-G were addressed as sir or ma'am.  All of the students went by their first names exclusively.

We did a formation at the beginning of every day in our activity uniforms and formed up and saluted as the flag was raised.  We never saluted except for the last day when we wore uniforms for the graduation.  We still used first names between cadets because we were almost all friends by that point.

That was my experience as well, as it was the experience of many others at different NFAs in different years.  The current system works well and is highly enjoyable by all who attend.

[flyguy06]

Thats fine if they want to go corporate or airlines and there are programs out there for people with that interetst. But CAP is a military programand it should hold true to that goal. I am just saying teach leadership military customs at NFA. Its part of the cadet program. NFA is a cadet activity. So just incorporate it as much as you can thats all I am saying. We cant appease and accomadate everybody. We are a cade program that teaches military leadership. They know that when they join. They know that we wear uniforms, salute people and say sir and ma'am. That part of the program. They should know that comming into it.

I see the NFA as a way to further teach military leadership since that is one of the goals of the cadet program.

[DNall]

This thread is drifting off into stupid rather quickly...

Personally, I think a lot of the people involved w/ fligt academies may be a bit too close to the situation. We don't let kids fly for flying sake, & we don't do it to help them get their pilot's license. Those are bonus, a nice bonus that everyone thinks is great, but don't get caught up in it. This is what we do:

1-1. The Cadet Program's Mission & Goals. The mission of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is to provide the youth of our nation with a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide service to the United States Air Force and the local community.

The only two reasons flight training is provided is as an incentive to make cadets do things they don't like (but that make them better) in order to earn it, and to highlight the parallels between flight & their military training so that they can come back & teach those lessons to other cadets. If it's not accomplishing both those things then it should not be happening. No one is talking change for the sake of change. People are talking about tweaking programs to better achieve the stated objectives, and about stepping back & getting perspective on what we're doing & why.

[moose53]

it sounds like things have changed quite a bit since I ran some wing and region flight activities.   We always did ours in a military manner, to maintain a sense of discipline and for safety. By that I don't mean exactly like UPT or even as much as a squadron meeting night, but the instructors were addressed as "Sir" or " Cpt soandso" and the cadets were "Mr. Jones" etc. All participants were issued flight suits which were the uniform of the day, and activity ball caps. We did "stand-ups", and had cadet flight leaders to move their flights between areas in a military manner. All my flight activities were held on military bases btw, and we lived, flew, ate, and slept there for the duration of the activity. The stress level from this was not high, although I think the flying was stressful for them at first. The low level of discipline was just enough to keep them focused on the activity, and not sidetracked into playing around. I ran five annual activities (called solo schools at the time) and trained 20 cadets in each one. We never had a student that didn't solo, and never had a single safety incident either. I guess my point is that while I realize there is more than one way of doing things, there is nothing wrong with emulating the parts of the AF program that can apply. it is, after all the air force auxilliary.