Photo ID & NIMS

[Dragoon]

Our normal money to maintain our fleet doesn't come from FEMA.  And our reimbursement money comes through USAF, effectively getting USAF top cover and, dare I say it "laundering."

"Laundering" ? Just out of curiousity, have you ever been in the military? Cause some of the ideas you've put out don't seem to relate in any way to the military I was in.

Still am in, and have played rather extensively with money.

Here's the details behind the snarky "laundering" comment.

FEMA says "no money unless all your guys are NIMS compliant."

Then a big disaster hits, and, like Katrina, the whole durned federal government gets involved.  FEMA waives the NIMS rules for DoD and starts funding their efforts.

We in turn are activated through USAF channels and submit our reimbursement requests through USAF.

So FEMA money goes through USAF to us....and the NIMS thing gets completely forgotton.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for compliance, and working within ICS.  But if anyone truly believes that CAP will be shut out of a Katrina style incident in FY08 because we haven't type classified all our assets......yer livin' in a different world than this one.

It will take a decade to get that kind of compliance, and by then the standards will have been changed (probably watered down), exceptions granted, etc.

This is something CAP should moniter and get involved with.  But the sky ain't falling - and we could waste a lot of time and money getting in front of something that's still in it's infancy, and subject to great change in the next few years.

[DNall]

Our normal money to maintain our fleet doesn't come from FEMA.  And our reimbursement money comes through USAF, effectively getting USAF top cover and, dare I say it "laundering."

"Laundering" ? Just out of curiousity, have you ever been in the military? Cause some of the ideas you've put out don't seem to relate in any way to the military I was in.

Still am in, and have played rather extensively with money.

Here's the details behind the snarky "laundering" comment.

FEMA says "no money unless all your guys are NIMS compliant."

Then a big disaster hits, and, like Katrina, the whole durned federal government gets involved.  FEMA waives the NIMS rules for DoD and starts funding their efforts.

We in turn are activated through USAF channels and submit our reimbursement requests through USAF.

So FEMA money goes through USAF to us....and the NIMS thing gets completely forgotton.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for compliance, and working within ICS.  But if anyone truly believes that CAP will be shut out of a Katrina style incident in FY08 because we haven't type classified all our assets......yer livin' in a different world than this one.

It will take a decade to get that kind of compliance, and by then the standards will have been changed (probably watered down), exceptions granted, etc.

This is something CAP should moniter and get involved with.  But the sky ain't falling - and we could waste a lot of time and money getting in front of something that's still in it's infancy, and subject to great change in the next few years.

Okay I get your scenerio, but it is missing a big chunck of reality.

First, everyone in DoD (guard, active, reserve, civilian) that works on disaster/ICS is already compliant now -  at least the front line people already are to meet the deadlines & now they're going back & getting everyone else.

Second, it is still possible to use non-NIMS compliant resources from DoD, when & only when there is no other alternative even when it may take longer & cost more. In order to use such a resource it requires specific case-by-case sortie-by-sortie permission, and depending on the level of the disaster that permission may have to come from the President or Governor (it's the IC appointing authority). Under such a system, you must realize there are alternatives to CAP & that we would not get such approval except in the rarest narrowest cases.

Third, even if the way you were looking at it were close to reality, CAP could still not work within any kind of special DoD exemption. We're not desperately needed with no alternative lik maybe a C130 is.

CAP WAS shut out of Katrina. Take a look back at the work we did. A few imaging flights, then the big operation was door-to-door surveys, and some remote shelter support. Man we must have saved thousands of lives. Holy crap, move over Coast Guard, CAP is here. There weren't CAP members in the depths of New Orleans pulling people out, running support comms, on the scene within a few hours beaming out the first assessment imagry so initial resources & rescue personnel could be directed. We weren't doing anything useful. We weren't doing it in conjunction with the overall IC, and even internally we were running a bunch of seperate little overlapping missions that were totally uncoordinated. It was one gigantic cluster, and we're really luck we were able to beg that much work out of anyone. The funding for that route has now been closed, so it won't happen again.

You want to do SaR, fine get qualified to do SaR just like any emergency responder. The standards don't matter if you work for a paid fire dept, a volunteer fire dept, you're part of a private volunteer rescue squad, or CAP. FEMA sets the standards, everyone else meets them or they are not allowed in the area.

[DogCollar]

It's my understanding that NIMS came into being AFTER Katrina...and that it only becomes mandatory this year.  So, no waiving of NIMS qualifications before this year.  Again, I don't think we can afford to be lax in getting our ES people compliant with NIMS.

[Dragoon]

First, everyone in DoD (guard, active, reserve, civilian) that works on disaster/ICS is already compliant now -  at least the front line people already are to meet the deadlines & now they're going back & getting everyone else.

Where the heck to you get that statistic from?  I believe it's incredibly false.  Sure the folks whose job title is involves the word "disaster" have taken (or are taking) ICS courses - but that just a miniscule fraction of the military assets that will be put to work on a disaster.   Most military assets that will be used in a disaster are combat support - not disaster support - assets.  NIMS classification ain't high on their list of training priorities.

Second, it is still possible to use non-NIMS compliant resources from DoD, when & only when there is no other alternative even when it may take longer & cost more. In order to use such a resource it requires specific case-by-case sortie-by-sortie permission, and depending on the level of the disaster that permission may have to come from the President or Governor (it's the IC appointing authority). Under such a system, you must realize there are alternatives to CAP & that we would not get such approval except in the rarest narrowest cases.

That may (or may not be) the rules. But that ain't the way it's ever worked, and ever is going to work.  In a crunch they're gonna call.  And no one is going to tell the IC that he can't do it - in an emergency, the red tape is the first casualty.

CAP WAS shut out of Katrina. Take a look back at the work we did. A few imaging flights, then the big operation was door-to-door surveys, and some remote shelter support. Man we must have saved thousands of lives. Holy crap, move over Coast Guard, CAP is here. There weren't CAP members in the depths of New Orleans pulling people out, running support comms, on the scene within a few hours beaming out the first assessment imagry so initial resources & rescue personnel could be directed. We weren't doing anything useful. We weren't doing it in conjunction with the overall IC, and even internally we were running a bunch of seperate little overlapping missions that were totally uncoordinated. It was one gigantic cluster, and we're really luck we were able to beg that much work out of anyone. The funding for that route has now been closed, so it won't happen again.

Are you saying that CAP was "shut out" because of lack of compliance with FEMA rules.  BS!  The rules weren't even around then (heck, a lot of them are still draft!)

We did what they needed us for.  And that's what we'll do in the future.    The things we didn't do are things we aren't going to get to do just because we get FEMA compliant - we'd only do those things if we acquire new capabilities beyond those we have now.  I'm all for that - but that has nothing to do with any compliance issues.  We did what they asked us to do, and what we were capable of doing.  And that's what we'll do in the future.

I see no evidence that "the funding for that route has been closed.  That simply isn't how the real world works.  Maybe in 10 years, but not now.

You want to do SaR, fine get qualified to do SaR just like any emergency responder. The standards don't matter if you work for a paid fire dept, a volunteer fire dept, you're part of a private volunteer rescue squad, or CAP. FEMA sets the standards, everyone else meets them or they are not allowed in the area.

Let me know the first time CAP is "not allowed in the area."  Until then it's all idle speculation.  The sky just ain't falling.  And it won't for a long time.


Again, compliance is good.  We should play on the same team.   And it will help if we want a bigger roll.   But the doom and gloom is just wayyyyyyy overstated.  We've still got the planes - and they still need 'em.

[RiverAux]

Somewhere in one of the Presidential directives about NIMS I saw that DoD was exempt.  I can't find the darn thing now but there was something about that there.  I didn't really dig into it so could be wrong. 

[afgeo4]

Ah... but we're not DoD and even if DoD requests our assistance, we can be denied access to incident by FEMA due to non-compliance. They could just say, "the exception applies to DoD personnel only" and they'd be right.

[lordmonar]

Ah... but we're not DoD and even if DoD requests our assistance, we can be denied access to incident by FEMA due to non-compliance. They could just say, "the exception applies to DoD personnel only" and they'd be right.

When we are on AF missions we are the DOD...because then we would be the USAF-AUX.

[isuhawkeye]

I am interested in this thread. 

Is there actual documentation that ties us as a DOD assett.

[RiverAux]

CAP is treated as a federal asset due to its relationship with the AF  in just about any emergency plan I've seen.  Our status as the AF Aux is covered in federal law. 

[isuhawkeye]

river,

I am very aware of that.  My question was specific to the DOD.  Being fedral does not always corolate to DOD. 

In my years I dont think that I have ever seen us references specifically as a DOD asset.

AFRCC requests our assistance through the issuance of an AFAM, but they dont pay for it, or manage us.

AFNSEP does the same. 

I would hope that we would be a DOD assett, but I cant say I have ever seen it.

John

[RiverAux]

Exactly how do you figure that an organization acting as the AF Auxiliary under the actual control of the AF would not be considered a DoD asset?

[isuhawkeye]

they task many assetts.  Cvilian, corporate, etc.

How are we defined differently

[RiverAux]

I think you need to re-read several chapters of CAPR 60-3 which has numerous references to CAP as a federal and as an AF (i.e., DoD) asset.  This is basic CAP ES knowledge. 

[isuhawkeye]

River,

I'm sorry you decided to make this a personal issue.  I assure you that I have read 60-3 many times over.  I am always interested in hearing other people's angles, and approaches.

I just went back to said document and did a search.  The acronym DOD is referenced 12 times.  In most cases the DOD reference is in terms of military support to civil authorities.  I see no reference to CAP specifically being a DOD asset.  If I missed it I would love to see it. 

Im sorry to spin this thread in different directions.  This may need to be its own topic

[sardak]

The creation of NIMS was directed by Homeland Security Presidential Directive 5 (HSPD-5) issued by the President of the United States on February 28, 2003.

The NIMS was issued by the Department of Homeland Security on March 1, 2004.

The first letter requiring NIMS compliance beginning in FY2005 went to the states on September 8, 2004.

These dates all precede Katrina.

NIMS compliance has been made in steps, with each FY requiring additional compliance activities.

Compliance is not new and NIMS is not in "draft form."  It does get revised, though, just as CAPRs get revised.

The NIMS website is at:
http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nims/index.shtm

Mike

[RiverAux]

Just off the top of my head, look at how CAP assistance in Presidentially-declared disasters needs to be requested through the Federal Coodinating Officer. 

Just because 60-3 doesn't refer to DoD, when we're working for the AF by definition we're also working for DoD indirectly.

[isuhawkeye]

river,

I agree our own regulations would not be the place to define us as a DOD assett. 

If your game, I think this is an interesting discussion. 
Is there more out there on this topic??

[RiverAux]

I don't agree at all.

Since 60-3, specifically the disaster relief portions, is based on what is required to request DoD (in the guise of the AF) assistance, they seem pretty definitive to me.  If you can read that and not understand that we are, in terms of being used as the AF Aux, considered a federal asset and specifically a DoD asset under control of the AF, there isn't much more to discuss.

[Hawk200]

I agree our own regulations would not be the place to define us as a DOD assett. 

I would have to agree with that as well. CAP cannot define itself as a DOD asset. I can call myself the President or a fighter pilot or an Indian Chief, but it wouldn't hold any weight. An Air Force or DOD reg defining as a useable DOD asset I'd believe.

[lordmonar]

Just off the top of my head, look at how CAP assistance in Presidentially-declared disasters needs to be requested through the Federal Coodinating Officer. 

Just because 60-3 doesn't refer to DoD, when we're working for the AF by definition we're also working for DoD indirectly.

All requests for CAP assets by Federal Agencies must go through the USAF.

When we are on an AFAM we are the USAF-AUX under their operational control....ergo we are a DoD asset and any rules that apply to the USAF (from other agencies) would by extention apply to us.

This is just my barrack lawyering.

All of this is beside the point....CAP will be NIMS complaint when it really is required of us.

When we say things are in draft form...we are talking specificly about the training requirments for the various SAR teams.  The training requirments that have been floating around this board...are only draft recommendations at this time.  They will be finailised sometime soon (I think they said by FY 08...so that would be in October).  When that happens the will be broadcasted to the various agencies out there and we (as on of those agencies) will make the necessary changes to our training or find other sources of training.

This is not rocket science guys....nor is it the end of the world.  We have plenty of time to get in the groove.  There will be a phase in period....as someone said....you can expect it will be years before anyone is not allowed to participate in a FEMA operation.

Let's not get the horse before the cart.  What CAP needs to be doing now....is someone form NHQ needs to be in on these NIMS working groups to get first hand information and to represent CAP's view points.