How to earn retirement points? (Not CAP-RAP)

[CJB]

I recently discovered CAP-RAP.  I'd love to do it, but I was disappointed to learn that switching to patron status means that I can't fly.  That's a deal breaker for me.

I've heard from some guys that back in the day they were able to have their Guard/Reserve units award retirement points for their CAP service, while they remained full-fledged dues paying senior members.  Is anybody familiar with how to do this, if it's still possible?  (I'm guessing I'd submit a form NGB 105.)

[FW]

There may be some reserve "man days" availible to you for helping out at encampment.  It is rare today and, most likely will go to CAP-RAP reservists.   For getting points during a regular meeting night? Forget about it. Getting points means coordinating things with the CAP-RAP coordinator and, your unit. Give it a try, you may get lucky.

BTW; you must be Air Guard or AFR to be eligible.

[CJB]

Thanks.  Air Guard I am.

I was hoping points w/o pay for SAREXs and flights.  I'm already on AT during every encampment at the same time & place, regardless.  Stupid rules!

[arajca]

Ask you Air Guard personnel folks or command. The worst they can do is tell you yes no.

[PHall]

I looked into this in the past and if you are performing CAP-RAP duties, you can NOT be an active CAP member.
Conflict of interest is cited as the reason. And that seems "right" to me.

If you're that hard up for points, do a couple ECI courses. You gotta do the PME stuff anyway...

[Eclipse]

Wouldn't points for CAP service constitute compensation?

[FW]

Back in the day, I could be getting CAP-RAP points as a reservist and attend regular squadron meetings as a CAP membefr.  However, in 1989, that all changed.  I did know a few non CAP RAP reservists performing duties at HMRS for points but, that practice may be over too. CAP RAP reservists, to my knowledge, can NOT act as PIC in a CAP aircraft or serve as a MO or MP during missions.

And, yes, reserve points are considered compensation.  They are used in the tally for "good years" whcih lead to retirement pensions and benefits.

[RADIOMAN015]

Wouldn't points for CAP service constitute compensation?

Wow, I agree with you  In most instance if you are Air Guard/Reserve you SHOULD NOT be able to get any points for doing anything directly at your unit or elsewhere that is a normal CAP duty.   Fortunately they did tighten up on this program.  Many years ago as a cadet I remember some major reservists getting points, always seemed that he was standing around doing nothing

May or may not be a good program.
RM     

[flyboy53]

I looked into this in the past and if you are performing CAP-RAP duties, you can NOT be an active CAP member.
Conflict of interest is cited as the reason. And that seems "right" to me.

If you're that hard up for points, do a couple ECI courses. You gotta do the PME stuff anyway...

Agree. Having done this back n the 90s, I had to suspend my membership for four or five years while doing this as an additional duty. I was a Category A unit-gained AF Reservist at the time and a base liaison. Being a CAP  member at the same time you were earning points as a Reservist was considered a conflict of interest at the time. You were expected to have a clear chain of command through the Reserve program and not be beholding to any CAP unit commander or function.

Another issue was that promotions for enlisted personnel were a rare exception at the time. Since then, I guess it's been freed up to encourage participation. I know one individual who made senior master sergeant through this program.

More than likely, you will enter the program in a point-only capacity, which means you will be doing a lot of AFLDI (ECI) courses to make up the points you don't otherwise achieve. That also meant that for a weekly meeting I was actually on duty hours before hand, preparing for the meeting and what ever class I had to teach or supervise. I don't remember any Man Days doing any CAP things unless it was related to my normal reserve duties because there were a few CAT B Reservists at wing or region level who were administrators and managers of this program.

One thing that I remember was that there was no real flying other than to be airlifted somewhere. and when that actually occurred, you were on Air Force orders, not CAP.

If your intention is to do paid Man Days in support of the CAP, check with your unit. I'm pretty sure, however, that there has to be a tie to the unit. And then, be prepared because the CAP activity has to relate to your current military duties unless approved by your unit commander. I would think, with the budget issues that the Air Force currently has, that you will find that paid Man Days are at a premium and are reserved stricty for unit functions. So, like there's a CAP actvity on your base or station and you're in the PA shop, so you would be detailed to assist with Public Affars,

One more thing. I would hope you are letting your supervisor, first shirt and commander know about your CAP duties so that you can be nominated for that Military Outstanding Volunteer Service  Medal.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And then, be prepared because the CAP activity has to relate to your current military duties unless approved by your unit commander.

I don't get this.

What if an AF member's AFSC has to do with hangin' bombs and slingin' Sidewinders?  We don't do that in CAP.

[FlyTiger77]

And then, be prepared because the CAP activity has to relate to your current military duties unless approved by your unit commander.

I don't get this.

What if an AF member's AFSC has to do with hangin' bombs and slingin' Sidewinders?  We don't do that in CAP.

We don't?!?!?!? My (CAP) recruiter lied to me!!! Geez.

[flyboy53]

And then, be prepared because the CAP activity has to relate to your current military duties unless approved by your unit commander.

I don't get this.

What if an AF member's AFSC has to do with hangin' bombs and slingin' Sidewinders?  We don't do that in CAP.

I never said AFSC, I said duties. You can hang bombs, but I'm sure you have other additional duties assigned to you in your unit.

And besides, if you are not already in the CAP-RAP, ultimately, it's going to be your commander that approves your request for Man Days because the request is comming from his allocation...so again...duties.

[LegacyAirman]

I was CAP-RAP from 2006 to 2008. That was my first real exposure to CAP. Initially I was doing it as an additional duty, then as my only assignment (Category E) after I lost my flying slot due to a change in aircraft (I was looking for a new assignment anyway). At least back then, there were man-days associated with SAREX's, encampments, Regional Competitions, etc. I managed almost 30 a year.  Those came out of a separate pot of money than my primary unit's. As long as CAP-RAP didn't interfere with the obligation to my flying unit (part of the Commander's letter allowing participation), they didn't care. I also got points for representing the Air Force at Wing staff meetings. I was only about 90 miles away, closer than the other Reservists, but was also able to get per diem. If my extension to the High Year of Tenure was approved I might have made SMSgt. I understand man-days are much tougher to come by now, but it was a nice end to my career. YMMV

[Eclipse]

I was CAP-RAP from 2006 to 2008. That was my first real exposure to CAP. Initially I was doing it as an additional duty, then as my only assignment (Category E) after I lost my flying slot due to a change in aircraft (I was looking for a new assignment anyway). At least back then, there were man-days associated with SAREX's, encampments, Regional Competitions, etc. I managed almost 30 a year.  Those came out of a separate pot of money than my primary unit's. As long as CAP-RAP didn't interfere with the obligation to my flying unit (part of the Commander's letter allowing participation), they didn't care. I also got points for representing the Air Force at Wing staff meetings. I was only about 90 miles away, closer than the other Reservists, but was also able to get per diem. If my extension to the High Year of Tenure was approved I might have made SMSgt. I understand man-days are much tougher to come by now, but it was a nice end to my career. YMMV

This is essentially how the system still works, but your situation wasn't what the OP was asking.  You were a "pure" RAP, so no issue or question.
The OP wants to serve as a CAP member, but still get points with the ANG.  That's not allowed.

[flyboy53]

I was CAP-RAP from 2006 to 2008. That was my first real exposure to CAP. Initially I was doing it as an additional duty, then as my only assignment (Category E) after I lost my flying slot due to a change in aircraft (I was looking for a new assignment anyway). At least back then, there were man-days associated with SAREX's, encampments, Regional Competitions, etc. I managed almost 30 a year.  Those came out of a separate pot of money than my primary unit's. As long as CAP-RAP didn't interfere with the obligation to my flying unit (part of the Commander's letter allowing participation), they didn't care. I also got points for representing the Air Force at Wing staff meetings. I was only about 90 miles away, closer than the other Reservists, but was also able to get per diem. If my extension to the High Year of Tenure was approved I might have made SMSgt. I understand man-days are much tougher to come by now, but it was a nice end to my career. YMMV

This is essentially how the system still works, but your situation wasn't what the OP was asking.  You were a "pure" RAP, so no issue or question.
The OP wants to serve as a CAP member, but still get points with the ANG.  That's not allowed.

True, you can't mix the two, but there are those avenues where you can earn points, such as being detailed to assist with a CAP activity being held on a base like a tour, orientation flights, encampment, etc. BUT, you're not there as a CAP member, you're there in your capacity as an ANG or AFRES member.

The bottom line is that I would encourage this individual to pursue CAP-RAP, but he needs to understand that there is a clear line between CAP member activities and assisting CAP as a member of the ANG or AFRES. Mixing tht two, trying to get paid through the ANG for CAP duty could end up as a disciplinary action.

[CJB]

I would really like to do CAP-RAP as an additional duty to earn extra points, but doing so prevents me from flying.  If I could do CAP-RAP just in my home state of Pennsylvania, while continuing to fly for my assigned squadron in Delaware, that would be perfect, because I teach AE to cadets in PA and I can only fly within the DE Wing.  Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be doable as far as CAP is concerned, because they'd just consider me a patron everywhere.  I'm not allowed to fly with the Pennsylvania Wing anyway.  So, why is it so impossible for me to do CAP-RAP there and keep my flying CAP membership with Delaware?

[FARRIER]

Caveat: Not a member of the Reserves or Air National Guard, but a friend of a CAP Member and Air Force Navigator in the Reserves...

He checked into doing CAP-RAP to earn additional points. He was told by the Air Force he would have to drop his CAP membership.

[CJB]

Caveat: Not a member of the Reserves or Air National Guard, but a friend of a CAP Member and Air Force Navigator in the Reserves...

He checked into doing CAP-RAP to earn additional points. He was told by the Air Force he would have to drop his CAP membership.

Yes.  So was I.

[Eclipse]

So, why is it so impossible for me to do CAP-RAP there and keep my flying CAP membership with Delaware?

Well, your membership isn't with the DEWG, it's with CAP on a national level.

The elimination of the SD's in favor of LRADO's is going to change the RAP's as well - both reducing their numbers and likely making them more of a regional asset.

[CJB]

So, why is it so impossible for me to do CAP-RAP there and keep my flying CAP membership with Delaware?

Well, your membership isn't with the DEWG, it's with CAP on a national level.

Which is why I don't understand why flying is confined to Wings.

[Eclipse]

So, why is it so impossible for me to do CAP-RAP there and keep my flying CAP membership with Delaware?

Well, your membership isn't with the DEWG, it's with CAP on a national level.

Which is why I don't understand why flying is confined to Wings.

I wasn't going to derail this by asking, but the fact is, it's not.

If you're a Form5 / 91 pilot, you're allowed to use any aircraft in the fleet.  A form 5 is a form 5.

[Spaceman3750]

So, why is it so impossible for me to do CAP-RAP there and keep my flying CAP membership with Delaware?

Well, your membership isn't with the DEWG, it's with CAP on a national level.

Which is why I don't understand why flying is confined to Wings.

In ILWG we have a supplement authorizing any FRO to release flights to several neighboring states. So your experience is not universal.

[sarmed1]

I am currently a Cat A reservist with CAP-RAP as an additional duty and was also told I had to drop to patron status; again avoiding a conflict of interest: CAP-RAP is really about oversight, how can you be oversight if you are part of the group being overseen?  However I was able to convince my unit(s) prior to the CAP-RAP official assignment to support my CAP habit with either reschedules, mandays, AT or points only performance.  The gentlemens agreement was usually two fold a- there had to be some sort of appropriate tie in; ie medical support (provider...being I am a 4NO) teaching in my area of expertice...ie medical or proffesional military NCO sort of stuff.  b-I had to be allowed to do some sort of military recruiting sort of pitch. 
I had pretty much the same reasons as yourself; I wasnt ready to or able to give up the other advantage of my home squadron membership; basically supporting/running ES type operations and training.  Life & work changes since then have made a pure CAP-RAP association much more appropriate to my life and the time I am/was able to devote to CAP.

If you can convince your unit to support you without making the switch to CAP-RAP I say go ahead, I think personally the organization benefits more from these type of arragements.

mk

[coudano]

i wonder if some sort of (nonfunded) permissive tdy thing would work...
hrm

[sarmed1]

On the AD side the PTDY is ok if your commander approves it (it is or at least was in the AFI).  On the reserve component side the 40a marked for points only is the best equivilent.  The concern (with both but more on the reserve side) is insurance for should a LODD type of injury occur.  AD side your on the Tricare bill 24-7, the Reserve side not so much.... commanders may be a little more hesitant to sign off on the chance of you being on the government pay and medical bill side for an injury incurred for an activity they said ok to that they really didnt understand the why you need to be there part (ie if there is this CAP-USAF thing why arent they signing orders or paying for you.....).  Remember that even though you may be there for points only, if you get hurt they may be putting you on pay status for the remainder of your healing and rehab time (ie like workmans comp)

My experience has been a good briefing to the commander and the first shirt (especially in the enlisted realm) explaining the relevant AFI's and the benefits to the unit/wing/AF etc etc goes a long way in making them feel they are ok in signing off on your 40a.

mk