Curry passed but not awarded for 6 months

[smile]

Hello Sirs,
a new cadet joins CAP , after 2 months he completes Curry achievement.  The DCC- cadet programs doesnot promote him for 6 more months, without giving any feed back.  This cadet has never missed a meeting, always has A in school.

The commander knows this but doesnot comment anything.
I'm puzzled( Iam not the cadet)
any suggestions....


Thanks in advance.

[Eclipse]

The cadet in question needs to address this directly with the CDC, and if the answer is not satisfactory his parents should get involved.

Accepting all facts in evidence, this is not acceptable, and likely in violation of 35-5.

Accepting again this isn't you, unless you have a leadership role in the squadron, it is best to leave this to those directly involved.

[Spaceman3750]

and if the answer is not satisfactory his parents should get involved.

I disagree. The cadet's promotion is his problem, and when parents get involved it goes into "you're being mean to my sweet little Tommy, I'm going to call your boss and your bosses boss and your bosses bosses boss until they fire you", even when that's not the case and the commander is justified. Happens in education all the time.

[Eclipse]

The assumption here is that we're talking about a young new cadet, probably 12-14, and being new, not likely to be prepared to
speak with authority to CAP commander he doesn't really know, about a program he doesn't really understand. 

What do you suggest he tell mom and dad when they start seeing others progressing and he's on the sidelines?

In fact, one has to wonder why they haven't asked already.  I would have.

[Pylon]

If this is the case, the squadron is in violation of CAPR 52-16, the regulation which governs Cadet Programs Management in CAP.  Specifically, section 5-2, paragraph e, gives squadron commanders the authority to retain a cadet in grade.  However, if a cadet is retained in grade, the regulation stipulates that the leadership will use a CAPF 50 (a standard form for evaluating cadets and providing constructive feedback), and then re-evaluate the cadet for promotion in 60 days or less.


The regulation: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf



The appropriate citation (from page 17):

e. Retaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders should retain a cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or deputy commander) will offer constructive feedback to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills. The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days.

The language "the commander...will" and "must" means this is not optional or negotiable for the unit.  They must either promote the cadet or provide him with a CAPF 50 outlining specifically where the unit feels he or she is lacking, giving them actionable and measurable things to improve, and then they must re-evaluate him or her again with a CAPF 50 within 60 days or less.  The CAPF 50 must also evaluate the cadet against leadership expectations commensurate with the grade the cadet is to be promoted to.  Since we're talking about C/Amn, the board is set pretty low, and the appropriate form for a Phase 1 cadet is CAPF 50-1.  A C/Amn cannot be expected to demonstrate Phase III or IV cadet traits. 


From CAPR 52-16, Section 5-2, paragraph c. on how the CAPF 50's must be implemented:

...ultimately the commander must ensure the cadet's progress is evaluated properly. The "Leadership Expectations" shown in CAPVA 52-100 outlines in broad terms what level of leadership skill cadets should be demonstrating during each phase of the Cadet Program. Commanders will use those goals as a guideline (not a definitive, absolute list of required skills) when making promotion decisions and mentoring cadets.

The cadet in question should request a CAPF 50 review, bring a copy of the Leadership Expectations from CAPVA 52-100 for Cadet Airmen, a copy of the CAPF 50-1, and offer a copy of the regulation with the above sections highlighted to his chain of command.  If the chain of command does not abide by this and resolve the issue, it would not be inappropriate to contact the IG.

[Eclipse]

The cadet in question should request a CAPF 50 review, bring a copy of the Leadership Expectations from CAPVA 52-100 for Cadet Airmen, a copy of the CAPF 50-1, and offer a copy of the regulation with the above sections highlighted to his chain of command. 

Heh - The act of doing the above, in and of itself, should be enough to get him a Curry, not to mention some deer-eyes on the adult staff.

[lordmonar]

and if the answer is not satisfactory his parents should get involved.

I disagree. The cadet's promotion is his problem, and when parents get involved it goes into "you're being mean to my sweet little Tommy, I'm going to call your boss and your bosses boss and your bosses bosses boss until they fire you", even when that's not the case and the commander is justified. Happens in education all the time.

That would be true if it were not a 12 year old.

[Extremepredjudice]

Are you sure the cadet just hasn't passed PT or hasn't taken review board or a drill test?

[smile]

update
pylon, ecipse , spaceman , extremepre and others so far. your points are all implemented and  followed.

My view of Curry acheivement - It is the first exam that proves the cadets enthusiasm in the program and that he is willing to read and pass exams and willing to learn.   it in itself should be a positive point and needs encouragement.

Yes the cadet has passed a PT and physical fitness test. Safety current.  regular to the meetings. Character development current etc.

The cadet is 13 yrs.  very sharp.

the cadet says he cannot talk to CDC as per the Chain of command in CAP.  He speaks to his element leader.
The element leader doesnot do anything , than saying " ok , ok"

He is seeing others progress. the others who are progressing are just the Senior cadets.

"The assumption here is that we're talking about a young new cadet, probably 12-14, and being new, not likely to be prepared to
speak with authority to CAP commander he doesn't really know, about a program he doesn't really understand. 

What do you suggest he tell mom and dad when they start seeing others progressing and he's on the sidelines?

In fact, one has to wonder why they haven't asked already.  I would have"

[davidsinn]

update
pylon, ecipse , spaceman , extremepre and others so far. your points are all implemented and  followed

Yes the cadet has passed a PT and physical fitness test. Safety current.  regular to the meetings. Character development current etc.

The cadet is 13 yrs.  very sharp.

the cadet says he cannot talk to CDC as per the Chain of command goes.  He is told to speak to his element leader.
The element leader doesnot do anything , than saying " ok , ok"

He is seeing others progress. the others who are progressing are just the Senior cadets.

"The assumption here is that we're talking about a young new cadet, probably 12-14, and being new, not likely to be prepared to
speak with authority to CAP commander he doesn't really know, about a program he doesn't really understand. 

What do you suggest he tell mom and dad when they start seeing others progressing and he's on the sidelines?

In fact, one has to wonder why they haven't asked already.  I would have"

If the element leader isn't doing anything, go to the flight sergeant.

[Eclipse]

Cadets need to learn about and respect the chain, but that doesn't mean they never speak directly to am adult in CAP.

Element leaders don't have anything to do with promotions.  He should speak directly with the CDC at the next meeting, or even before.

[smile]

the whole chain of cadet command says ok, ok, ok.
this goes on for 6 months in every meeting.  CDC says ok too!!! without any feedback.

If the element leader isn't doing anything, go to the flight sergeant.
[/quote]

[Spaceman3750]

Yes the cadet has passed a PT and physical fitness test. Safety current.  regular to the meetings. Character development current etc.

Sounds like he's missing a leadership exam and possibly Intro to CAP Safety / OPSEC. That could be why he's not getting promoted.

[EMT-83]

I'm always the guy saying "use your chain of command" to resolve problems.

However, that doesn't mean a hard stop when a cadet with half a year's worth of seniority blows you off.

[FlyTiger77]

Yes the cadet has passed a PT and physical fitness test. Safety current.  regular to the meetings. Character development current etc.

Sounds like he's missing a leadership exam and possibly Intro to CAP Safety / OPSEC. That could be why he's not getting promoted.

I think an engaged chain of command would inform him of what he needs to do instead of waiting for a brand-new cadet to figure it out on his own. Six months without feedback is unsat.

[Eclipse]

Further, even assuming the Element Leader is lacking in ability here, this cadet (presumably) has a Flight Commander who is actually the one responsible for the cadets in his flight.

[lordmonar]

the whole chain of cadet command says ok, ok, ok.
this goes on for 6 months in every meeting.  CDC says ok too!!! without any feedback.

If the element leader isn't doing anything, go to the flight sergeant.

I'm a little confused.

Okay....assuming you are correct.  He has passed everything, has been active......but has not been promoted.

The promotion authority is the CDC and/or the commander.

What's the hang up?

The fix to this is of course....talk to the chain of command.  Go to the CDC.  He should either give you a reason why he is being held back (and document it on a form 50) or sign the promotion.

It's not rocket science.

[smile]

Yes the cadet has passed a PT and physical fitness test. Safety current.  regular to the meetings. Character development current etc.

Sounds like he's missing a leadership exam and possibly Intro to CAP Safety / OPSEC. That could be why he's not getting promoted.

Done -- Intro to CAP Safety / OPSEC, without these a cadet cannot take online exams.
currey achievemnet is given after completing Leadership exam ( chapter 1 ) online. There is no requirement of Aerospace exam and they cannot take it.

[a2capt]

There's several things, like the senior members are also required to do, that the cadet member also gets six months to do. However, unlike a senior member, they all do not hold up a promotion. They are given six months, after six months it may hold up, or the leadership is responsible, I don't know. I've not run into anyone not completing what they need. Most get it done before the second stripe, if not the first.

Have others started, and promoted in the meantime since this particular one joined? Or are you dealing with a case of "well, I didn't get it for 27 years, so why should they get it?"

If others have joined, and promoted since, then it's obvious command isn't totally broken. But there may in fact be something you're not being told, (and if the cadet in question isn't being told, that's the part that's wrong).

[Pylon]

Like I said above, the cadet simply needs to show the Deputy Commander for Cadets the sections from CAPR 52-16 that I referenced above.  The unit does not have the leeway to just fail to promote a cadet without conducting a formal CAPF 50 review and providing the cadet with feedback.  As soon as a cadet meets the promotion requirements, the unit must either promote him or if the unit commander decides to hold him back, they must perform a CAPF 50.  There is no room in the regulation for: "Well... we'll just sit on it for months." 

If the Deputy Commander for Cadets has been informed, and they are simply giving you lip service saying "Okay, Okay" but more than two weeks have gone by without any progress (this is not a hard issue to resolve, either the chain takes 2 minutes to plug the promotion into E-Services, or they sit down at the next meeting with a CAPF 50-1 and do the review. It's not rocket science), I'd go ahead and contact your Wing Inspector General program. 

It's an issue where the unit is not adhereing to the mandatory structure of Cadet Promotions as established by CAPR 52-16.  There are very good reasons why our cadet program has this structure and these controls.  A unit that ignores these controls is not only doing a disservice to the cadets affected, but may very well be ignoring all sorts of other requirements at their convenience.  You're doing the overall organization a favor by reporting these problems.   If the chain has been duly notified, go ahead and look up your Wing Inspector General (IG) contact info and file a complaint.  The IG process is fair, efficient, and often quick to resolve simple regulatory issues like this.

Bottom line: Lay it out for your chain of command.  They are required to either promote this cadet or give him a CAPF 50 review and re-examine it within 60 days.  If they do not do either of these immediately, call the IG.

[lordmonar]

Pylon is 100%

If all the requirments have been met...then the cadet needs to be promoted.  If there is any reason for not promoting him (say attititude/attendance/etc) then the cadet needs to know what they are and how to fix them.

If the cadet is maken about having completed all the requirments then leadership should tell them what they are lacking.

So....assuming as the OP stated...that the CDC and CC have been notified of the issue....and they have not done anything about it in a timely manner (in this case I would say 2 weeks is more then timely) then it is time to get parents, group/wing and/or the IG invovled.

Someone either does not know how to do their job or are willfully not doing their job and that needs to be fixed.

And again...the key to this is the chain of command.

[smile]

Have others started, and promoted in the meantime since this particular one joined? Or are you dealing with a case of "well, I didn't get it for 27 years, so why should they get it?"

If others have joined, and promoted since, then it's obvious command isn't totally broken. But there may in fact be something you're not being told, (and if the cadet in question isn't being told, that's the part that's wrong).

How did you guess this..?  on further investigations I found  the DCP is a 22 yr Cadet turned Senior member.

[a2capt]

It wasn't a guess..
I've been in the organization for 10 years. Certainly not as long as some, but a lot longer than most.
I've seen it, I've experienced it, and I've outlasted it, to see that it's not done again.

...and a 22 year old, former cadet is typically not someone that's typically fit for that position. There needs to be a separation from the cadet program for those, they really should explore other parts of the program as statistics have shown that many have a hard time separating themselves from being a cadet, still. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

...and a 22 year old, former cadet is typically not someone that's typically fit for that position. There needs to be a separation from the cadet program for those, they really should explore other parts of the program as statistics have shown that many have a hard time separating themselves from being a cadet, still.

I've heard that, and I can see that if someone continues right after turning, but what about someone like me? Away for college for 3.5 years so far. Not long enough to forget most of the training, but long enough to not feel like a cadet anymore?

[Pylon]

It's not necessary to make superficial judgements of another person who isn't here to defend himself or herself and for a situation which we aren't sure we're getting the accurate facts.  Nonetheless, your course of action has been laid out for you.  Contact Group/Wing IG and file a complaint; the problem will get solved. 

As for younger senior members in cadet programs, I can agree that they need more supervision and strong mentorship during their first years as a SM.  But as a guy who stayed in cadet programs after his switch to the dark side (and even put into Group Cadet Programs Officer before I had turned 22), I can say its possible to do a decent job, do the cadet program justice, and make a relatively smooth transition.  Age alone should not be a condemning factor.  "Oh, your [insert duty title here] is only 22?  Well, that must be the cause of all these problems..." is not a fair assessment, especially when it's made superficially.

[lordmonar]

It wasn't a guess..
I've been in the organization for 10 years. Certainly not as long as some, but a lot longer than most.
I've seen it, I've experienced it, and I've outlasted it, to see that it's not done again.

...and a 22 year old, former cadet is typically not someone that's typically fit for that position. There needs to be a separation from the cadet program for those, they really should explore other parts of the program as statistics have shown that many have a hard time separating themselves from being a cadet, still.

I would love to see those numbers.

I think, what you meant is that "anecdotal" evidence shows...some cadets have a problem making the transition.

[Eclipse]

As for younger senior members in cadet programs, I can agree that they need more supervision and strong mentorship during their first years as a SM.  But as a guy who stayed in cadet programs after his switch to the dark side (and even put into Group Cadet Programs Officer before I had turned 22), I can say its possible to do a decent job, do the cadet program justice, and make a relatively smooth transition.  Age alone should not be a condemning factor.  "Oh, your [insert duty title here] is only 22?  Well, that must be the cause of all these problems..." is not a fair assessment, especially when it's made superficially.

Anything is possible, there's a handful of 12 year olds who are medical doctors.  That doesn't make it a good idea as a matter of policy.

Generally, someone of college age will have a difficult time with the subjective nature of leadership of volunteers who will most certainly
be older and more experienced.  Further, in these cases, the fact that a shiny new Senior Member is the only one to take the job, points
back to the "need more people" issue, and that unlucky member will have to deal with more seasoned, and likely disengaged former staffers
who will have little interest what "that kid has to say".   They flounder for a year or so, then move on, many times out of CAP.

The MO is generally that people that young have little "big picture" understanding, and will focus on one activity or line of thought that they
intend to "fix", versus the generalized management needed for these types of jobs.

Think this through to the logical conclusion.  In a wing of 300-3000+ members, the most qualified person to run what is 1/3-1/2 of the wing's mission is someone who just became an "adult" in the eyes of the program?  What does that say about the program as a whole?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

But as a guy who stayed in cadet programs after his switch to the dark side (and even put into Group Cadet Programs Officer before I had turned 22), I can say its possible to do a decent job, do the cadet program justice, and make a relatively smooth transition.  Age alone should not be a condemning factor.  "Oh, your [insert duty title here] is only 22?  Well, that must be the cause of all these problems..." is not a fair assessment, especially when it's made superficially.

This almost sounds like {gasp} selecting the best person available for the job. I've seen plenty of older senior members that have zero business being in CP.

I also happen to work for the youngest Wing CC in CAP history. (A record that I do not think will ever be broken.)  I take pride in the fact that one of "my" cadets (we were in the same squadron before I joined wing staff) is now a CAP Col.

[abdsp51]

Or maybe the dcc in this unit wad the only one to say I'll do it l.  I expressed my interest in the CP side the day I walked in.  Reading through and rereading through I wonder where the parental involvement is and that there is more here than what is being made known.  Egeryone has given sound advice on how best to handle the issue.

[Eclipse]

Reading through and rereading through I wonder where the parental involvement is and that there is more here than what is being made known.

We all know that in far too many cases, the cadets are lucky if their parents slow down long enough for them to get out of the car when they
are being dropped off.  I see the same thing in my sons' Cub Scout pack.  A lot of parents treat these organizations as "nights off" for themselves and have no idea what actually goes on there.  Couple that with our government affiliation and some have the attitude that CAP is a self-sustaining reaction.

One thing SMILE.  If you're aware of this, why don't you just bring it to the CDC's attention directly?

[Extremepredjudice]

Anything is possible, there's a handful of 12 year olds who are medical doctors.  That doesn't make it a good idea as a matter of policy.

Reddit talking, but cite?

[Eclipse]

Anything is possible, there's a handful of 12 year olds who are medical doctors.  That doesn't make it a good idea as a matter of policy.

Reddit talking, but cite?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balamurali_Ambati  (etc)

[Extremepredjudice]

17 isn't 12.

[68w20]

17 isn't 12.

I'm fairly certain that Eclipse's post was hyperbolic, furthermore I fail to see how nitpicking is helping your argument.  The fact is that there are always people that are going to violate norms, such as individuals who graduate medical school at a very young age.

That being said, I do feel that there is undo pressure placed on Cadets-turned-Senior to take their experience and expertise away from CP.  As a Phase IV Cadet I was encouraged to take time away from the CP, however as a Senior Member I've refused to do so.  The CP is the reason that I joined CAP, and turning away from it now would severely limit my activity within CAP.  And just to quiet the quibblers, I'm GTL/MRO/MS/CERT qualified and work to ensure that the AE program is facilitated within my Squadron. 

To sum up, I have yet to see a compelling argument backed up by legitimate numbers as to why Cadets should back away from CP as soon as they turn SM.  While there are certainly individuals that have a hard time transitioning, I think that making broad generalities is detrimental to the program.

[Extremepredjudice]

17 isn't 12.

I'm fairly certain that Eclipse's post was hyperbolic, furthermore I fail to see how nitpicking is helping your argument.  The fact is that there are always people that are going to violate norms, such as individuals who graduate medical school at a very young age.

That being said, I do feel that there is undo pressure placed on Cadets-turned-Senior to take their experience and expertise away from CP.  As a Phase IV Cadet I was encouraged to take time away from the CP, however as a Senior Member I've refused to do so.  The CP is the reason that I joined CAP, and turning away from it now would severely limit my activity within CAP.  And just to quiet the quibblers, I'm GTL/MRO/MS/CERT qualified and work to ensure that the AE program is facilitated within my Squadron. 

To sum up, I have yet to see a compelling argument backed up by legitimate numbers as to why Cadets should back away from CP as soon as they turn SM.  While there are certainly individuals that have a hard time transitioning, I think that making broad generalities is detrimental to the program.

Eclipse made a statement, and I requested information to back it up. It is perfectly reasonable for me to request proof.

When did I have an argument? I only had 2 posts in this thread, the one you quoted and another suggesting a reason why he was promoted.

Edited for mispelling.

[68w20]

17 isn't 12.

I'm fairly certain that Eclipse's post was hyperbolic, furthermore I fail to see how nitpicking is helping your argument.  The fact is that there are always people that are going to violate norms, such as individuals who graduate medical school at a very young age.

That being said, I do feel that there is undo pressure placed on Cadets-turned-Senior to take their experience and expertise away from CP.  As a Phase IV Cadet I was encouraged to take time away from the CP, however as a Senior Member I've refused to do so.  The CP is the reason that I joined CAP, and turning away from it now would severely limit my activity within CAP.  And just to quiet the quibblers, I'm GTL/MRO/MS/CERT qualified and work to ensure that the AE program is facilitated within my Squadron. 

To sum up, I have yet to see a compelling argument backed up by legitimate numbers as to why Cadets should back away from CP as soon as they turn SM.  While there are certainly individuals that have a hard time transitioning, I think that making broad generalities is detrimental to the program.

Eclipse made a statement, and I requested information to back it up. It is perfectly reasonable for me to request proof.

When did I have an argument? I only had 2 posts in this thread, the one you quoted and another suggesting a reason why he was promoted.

Edited for mispelling.

I apologize for using confusing language, it convoluted my statement and obviously caused you to completely miss the point.

As for my statement directed at you, it is perfectly reasonable for you to ask for proof.  However to follow up that request by focusing on minor details of the much broader concept to which he was eluding was argumentative and unnecessary.  If you would like to discuss this further please pm me, as we're derailing the topic and drawing attention away from the discussion at hand.

[Eclipse]

...argumentative and unnecessary...

Describes about 80% of the internet as a whole, and more than a few of my posts.  You don't get to 14K without being a smarty-knickers once in a while.

[Pylon]

You don't get to 14K without being a smarty-knickers once in a while.

What the.... 14,000 posts?   

[davidsinn]

You don't get to 14K without being a smarty-knickers once in a while.

What the.... 14,000 posts?   

Been a while has it Boss?

[Eclipse]

To say the least.