cadet training

[flygilz]

I've done much research as to why we aren't allowed to discipline cadets with excersize and yelling, but I still don't understand why these polices are established as hazing? I realize some senior cadets and senior members may have "abused" this in the past, however where is the proof? If it did happen, why does everyone have to be punished and prohibited from using this if there have only been such cases at certain squadrons, encampments, and activities? wouldn't it be simple enough to have the safety officer in charge of preventing these acts of dicipline from being abused? Another question that frustrates me is why can't the cadet who is exposed to these abused disciplines simply transfer squadrons or quit CAP all together? After all, when used properly (as they have for several decades of CAP's existence) these forms of discipline actualy strengthen a cadets character IF they choose to stay in the program.

[Eclipse]

You assume the Safety Officer isn't the one doing the hazing.  Further where is your evidence that PT as punishment strengthens character?

The quick answer is that CAP leaders and trainers do not have the consistency of training or oversight necessary to allow for
discipline and interaction with recruits in the same way the military does.  Neither is there a consistency of expectation for behavior across
squadrons.  Military DI's, TI's, and RDC's, in addition to having been consistently trained in a standardized fashion themselves, and having
years of personal experience as an enlisted person in their respective service, also receive intensive training in "how to train", including
where the lines are that may never be crossed, and an understanding of the personal ramifications when they are crossed.

They are constantly monitored and audited by their superiors on their behavior and techniques, with little latitude in what they can do (or not do)
to a recruit.

As taught to staff at encampments, the military has been moving away from the "punitive model" to the "reward model", and CAP has followed suit
(and it should be said that PT as punishment has been prohibited for at least a decade, so there are no cadets in the program who remember
"the good old days").

The intent is to directly connect the remediation for poor performance to the action which caused the issue.  Having a cadet who
ignores courtesies do 50 push ups will not help them understand what they are doing wrong, but it will potentially build animosity and
foster the very attitude that caused the disdain for the show of respect to superiors in the first place.

[Eclipse]

Another question that frustrates me is why can't the cadet who is exposed to these abused disciplines simply transfer squadrons or quit CAP all together?

So you're suggesting that the "victim" (for lack of a better word) in these cases be punished by being forced to transfer or quit CAP?
For the record, the person who inflicts the abuse is the one who is disciplined, not the person who was abused.

[SarDragon]

I've done much research as to why we aren't allowed to discipline cadets with excersize and yelling, but I still don't understand why these polices are established as hazing? I realize some senior cadets and senior members may have "abused" this in the past, however where is the proof? If it did happen, why does everyone have to be punished and prohibited from using this if there have only been such cases at certain squadrons, encampments, and activities? wouldn't it be simple enough to have the safety officer in charge of preventing these acts of dicipline from being abused? Another question that frustrates me is why can't the cadet who is exposed to these abused disciplines simply transfer squadrons or quit CAP all together? After all, when used properly (as they have for several decades of CAP's existence) these forms of discipline actualy strengthen a cadets character IF they choose to stay in the program.

I joined CAP as a cadet in 1964, and 'pushups as punishment' was NEVER permitted at any unit or activity I participated with, during any time during my active participation.

[arajca]

Heck, I'll jump in. WIWAC in the early 80's, PT for punishment was not used effectively. It was used mostly by higher ranking cadet to demonstrate their 'superiority' over other cadets. Most unit commanders I knew were using it as punishment for the cadets who used it. I will say it worked quite well for that.

[Extremepredjudice]

I don't like PT for punishment because it messes my boots up.
And I need to clean my uniform afterwards.

In all seriousness, not all cadets are able to do 50 pushups. Forcing them to do something that is out of their abilities is hazing. Think of how many pushups you can do, add 50. Not fun, is it?
Besides, I didn't join CAP to be screamed at by some sergeant who's voice is cracking 

I joined for Emergency Services, the chance to fly, and for an alternative to ROTCs. Not some drill natzis yelling at me, or giving me pushups. I don't think it should be allowed.
I have heard of encampments still doing pushups and yelling(too much FMJ).

Isn't it more productive to give a cadink 1 on 1 training? Or smaller amounts of cadets taught by an experienced cadet?
I am probably wrong but, I think the old books(i know it was something CAP related) had something about the method you should teach drill, which is something like, show, have the cadet do it, and correct. That is how I first learned drill. I think it is more affective than screaming at a cadet because he can't execute facing movements. Or giving pushups, or running.

Just my thoughts.
And my 0.02$

[Major Lord]

High stress training, or stress inoculation, is an effective tool for conditioning instant response to commands, and as a consequence of this training, a person can learn to think better under conditions of pressure. This conditioning (and it would not be unfair to characterize it as "brainwashing" ) is useful to establish instantaneous response in conditions like fire and maneuver, or failure drills for all kinds of situations, like a stovepipe jam in a weapon or a failure of a primary parachute.

Highly qualified instructors have the ability to play their trainee's stress levels like a violin, and for them, its a job that's mostly a well rehearsed act. Most adolescents will not have the emotional detachment to conduct training of this sort without letting the moment take control of their typically lower maturity and impulse control. In short, a 14 year old kid can't be Gunny Hartman......Even Gunny Hartman is not Gunny Hartman.

It is hard to summon an instance of when this type of training might be required in CAP, but if it should come to that, we had better bring in the pro's , because this type of training has a fair number of trainees who cannot adapt to conditioning ( and I use this word in the Pavlovian sense) and end up physically or mentally damaged in the attempt, even when handled by true professionals. We can't afford avoidable collateral losses in a program like CAP. Discourage it when you see it.

Major Lord

[MSG Mac]

PT is not a cure for anything other than increasing ones arm and/or leg strength. If someone can't do a drill movement or incorrectly wears his uniform, A push up isn't going to correct either problem. Even in the military PT for punishment is forbidden.

[flygilz]

what about the use of it as punishment for cadets who display improper conduct. for example a cadet goofs off in a serious environment and continues to do so even after numerous warnings from cadet officers and senior members?

[AngelWings]

what about the use of it as punishment for cadets who display improper conduct. for example a cadet goofs off in a serious environment and continues to do so even after numerous warnings from cadet officers and senior members?

PT is a no for any form of punishment. Furthermore, if a cadet is that badly behaved, than do you think push-ups is going to cure them?

[Eclipse]

what about the use of it as punishment for cadets who display improper conduct. for example a cadet goofs off in a serious environment and continues to do so even after numerous warnings from cadet officers and senior members?

First see Phall's response, above.

Second - Read, heed, and remember.  PT as punishment is 100% against regulations, always and ever after.  No excuses, no wiggle room,
no exceptions.  Forget this at the risk of your membership (or worse).

[jimmydeanno]

Here's some irony for you.

The punishment is supposed to fit the crime.

The example used is that pushups won't help a cadet with poorly shined shoes.

PT for punishment is not allowed.

What do you do for a cadet who can't do pushups?

[EMT-83]

Make him shine his shoes. Was this a trick question?

[Eclipse]

What do you do for a cadet who can't do pushups?

Failure to perform a given PT task isn't grounds for disciplinary action, so whatever you're doing, it would be remediation, not discipline.

[Spaceman3750]

What do you do for a cadet who can't do pushups?

It's built in, they don't promote and they either stagnate or they decide they want to promote and build their pushup numbers on their own.

[PA Guy]

what about the use of it as punishment for cadets who display improper conduct. for example a cadet goofs off in a serious environment and continues to do so even after numerous warnings from cadet officers and senior members?

NO and NO. You might want to give CAPR 52-16 a close read particularly Para. 1-6, c (2). The language of that sect. can not be more clear. If a cadet is that disruptive they obviously don't want to be there so wish them well as you show them the door. If you are in a leadership position as either a cadet or senior you owe it those you lead to have a working knowledge of CAPR 52-16. It is online so there is no excuse for not reading it.

[flygilz]

forgive my constant questioning of the reg's, but from my past experience in JROTC pushups were given to cadets who disobeyed rules and commands. these have been proven quite effective in enforcing military bearing and respect for authority and my battalion especially was able to accomplish and get the job done for whatever job they were given efficiently and effectively simply by correcting disciplinary issues they had with this technique. for years they have been using this and it has never been abused. ive even visited other JROTC programs and they have also been succesful from this technique. besides, back in the '70's teachers used the paddle to enforce discipline and prevent disruption and misbehavior in the classrooms and for centuries before that its been extremely effective in developing mature adults.

[DakRadz]

Okay, cadet.

I did my 4 years of JROTC in the deep South of Alabama and Georgia. Two different services of JROTC in two high schools. We were NOT allowed to give pushups as training as cadets. The instructors didn't either. And I graduated this year, so the information is accurate and recent.

And JROTC is a different animal. I don't care what experience you had in it, wrong forum to be spouting what you did there. That's the cadet equivalent of the guys who come in and say, "Well I wore this on active duty so I'm wearing it on CAP uniforms too, even if it is against regs!"

Seriously. Pushups aren't coming back.

[flygilz]

so this is more of a personal question but are u for or against it?

[flygilz]

for or against pushups to discipline cadets who misbehave. not for training purposes

[Eclipse]

so this is more of a personal question but are u for or against it?

An irrelevant question.  To entertain the discussion can imply there is, or may be, an option.

[flygilz]

a very irrelevnt question indeed but with much meaning.

[Eclipse]

ir·rel·e·vant   [ih-rel-uh-vuhnt] 
adjective
1. not relevant; not applicable or pertinent: His lectures often stray to interesting but irrelevant subjects.
2. Law . (of evidence) having no probative value upon any issue in the case.

[DakRadz]

so this is more of a personal question but are u for or against it?

An irrelevant question.  To entertain the discussion can imply there is, or may be, an option.

Exactly this. Thank you, Eclipse, saved me the trouble of typing that.



Now, flygilz- I don't care what you say it's for, pushups are not (and were not at my JROTC units) given for discipline, training, or any other reason than it was a PT day.


I have managed to succeed in CAP without EVER having given a cadet pushups. Already been a C/CC of one unit, and looking at my second command soon. My cadets understand that drill, ceremonies, customs, and courtesies do matter and have to be followed, and that I will join in with ES as much as I know how.

In CAP, you must keep them interested. Announcing that all cadets must take the drill time seriously in order to search for a practice ELT will elicit more enthusiasm than, "Hey you, drop until I'm tired!"

Largely, it is the responsibility of the Cadet Staff to make the cadet side of the unit work well- which you are not on, correct?
And no, I don't think it's the Senior Members job- they make sure things happen properly and safely- cadet staff should be doing heavy lifting.

[flygilz]

oh why thank you. but anyway, thank you all for your answers and i appreciate the refferences and counter arguements. had lots of fun and learned alot of the cap regs and policies and how most people in cap are thinking nowadays.

[Extremepredjudice]

Against. It scuffs my boots!   

Gotta look good.