In-House Fingerprinting

[Pylon]

I was curious to see how many squadrons and other units do the fingerprints for new members in-house, versus sending them to a local law enforcement agency?

If you do it in-house is it worth it for the ease and speed?  Did your members get training from a local Law Enforcement agency or some such or do you have former LEOs in your unit who do it or train others?

Just curious to see if it's worth it.  Some agencies near our unit charge residents for the fingerprints, others don't, and other's require appointments.  I was thinking it may take the delay out of getting a new member's feet wet if one could expedite the application submission by the several days it usually takes a prospective member to get around to visiting the station and getting them done.

[MIKE]

I went to the local PD when I had mine done for CAP, I don't think they charged anything for 'em... However; the CGAux trains members to do them... Fortunately for me, one lives locally and came to my house to do 'em for my PSI package. 

[davedove]

I went to the Sheriff's Office to do mine.  The office is basically next door to our squadron building.  They perform the service for anyone needing fingerprints in the community every Saturday afternoon and charge five dollars.

[lordmonar]

At Misawa...it was such a PITA to get the fingerprints done, I bought a kit on-line and did them my self.  It's not really that hard to do, just takes a little practice.

[Becks]

Got mine free from Charleston PD.  The officer who did it waved the $5 fee because of what it was for. 

[Eclipse]

Most of my members are getting theirs done at local PD, and most don't charge - the ones that do will sometimes waive the fee when they understand WHY you need them.

I don't see anything wrong with doing them in-house as long as they are clear.

[Hawk200]

I don't see anything wrong with doing them in-house as long as they are clear.

Easy way to make sure they are. I did prints at one of my previous units. The best thing I found to do was to make two cards. Wait til both dry. Put a sheet of paper on top of the card when dry, and paper clip the sides. Never had an initial member package returned after I started doing that.

[Lancer]

I was under the impression the need to have your fingerprints taken by a local law enforcement agency was due to the fact that there was a need for a official/registered agency recording them?

From what I've read on the FBI's website, you need to submit your ORI # (Originating Agency Identification) on the FD-258 for them to accept it. Is this not the case? Or, can anyone register for an ORI #?

Personally I'd rather do them in house to spare our members from having to incur a cost and take the time off work to get them done. Even after calling the local sheriff's office, the police dept. for the city I work in and the police department for the city I live in and telling them what I was needing them for, there was still a cost and it varied from $10.00 to $15.00.

[Hawk200]

I was under the impression the need to have your fingerprints taken by a local law enforcement agency was due to the fact that there was a need for a official/registered agency recording them?

From what I've read on the FBI's website, you need to submit your ORI # (Originating Agency Identification) on the FD-258 for them to accept it. Is this not the case? Or, can anyone register for an ORI #?

Personally I'd rather do them in house to spare our members from having to incur a cost and take the time off work to get them done. Even after calling the local sheriff's office, the police dept. for the city I work in and the police department for the city I live in and telling them what I was needing them for, there was still a cost and it varied from $10.00 to $15.00.

The cards sent from National are preprinted with that info. The only thing you have to do is fill out the name, and put the prints on there.

And actually, there is no need for a law enforcement agency to do prints. The only reason I went to one when I rejoined is because the squadron didn't have a print kit.

[cyclone]

Our Wing HQ has a kit and we have people trained to use it.  We try to go that route to save time and $ whenever possible.

[Eclipse]

I was under the impression the need to have your fingerprints taken by a local law enforcement agency was due to the fact that there was a need for a official/registered agency recording them?

From what I've read on the FBI's website, you need to submit your ORI # (Originating Agency Identification) on the FD-258 for them to accept it. Is this not the case? Or, can anyone register for an ORI #?

Personally I'd rather do them in house to spare our members from having to incur a cost and take the time off work to get them done. Even after calling the local sheriff's office, the police dept. for the city I work in and the police department for the city I live in and telling them what I was needing them for, there was still a cost and it varied from $10.00 to $15.00.

The cards sent from National are preprinted with that info. The only thing you have to do is fill out the name, and put the prints on there.

And actually, there is no need for a law enforcement agency to do prints. The only reason I went to one when I rejoined is because the squadron didn't have a print kit.

Local agencies aren't recording it, in fact, except for the sig line, there's no track as to who did the prints.  Local PD just know how, is all.

I had a potential member who came in to join, and had real issues with the fingerprinting.  First it was several weeks before he said anything, then he asked if his work could do it (and I said "yes", as he said he worked for an immigration bureau).

When a few more weeks passed, (and he only showed once or twice total), I suggested (again), he go to the local PD and just get it done.

That's the last I have seen of him.  

Frankly, I think I'll just tell people from now on that it has to be local PD - that's round one of an informal background check - nobody with warrants or iffy immigration status is going to walk into a PD station and ask to be printed.  

[Psicorp]

This is definately going to become a problem within the next year or so.  Our local police and sheriff's offices will do them for free since the fingerprint card from National says "Volunteer".  However, more and more law enforcement agencies are going to ink-less, computerized fingerprint formats.  This is going to make it more of a "PITA".   My unit has already had three prospective members play telephone tag with various agencies (including a university campus) to get them done.

One possible solution might be for each unit to purchase a fingerprint kit and make arrangements for either an experienced member to do it or to have a friendly LEO drop by once a month or as needed.

[lordmonar]

One possible solution might be for each unit to purchase a fingerprint kit and make arrangements for either an experienced member to do it or to have a friendly LEO drop by once a month or as needed.

That is the way to go...as long as we have no way to use the electronic finger printing.  I had no training in fingerprinting.  I just followed the instructions in the kit I bought.  As I said before....it is pretty easy and only takes a little practice (I finger printed some of my cadets, my wife, my kids and my self...mostly for fun).

It is not rocket sciences.  Just make sure the fingers touch the paper straight up and down and roll them.

[Lancer]

This is definately going to become a problem within the next year or so.  Our local police and sheriff's offices will do them for free since the fingerprint card from National says "Volunteer".  However, more and more law enforcement agencies are going to ink-less, computerized fingerprint formats.  This is going to make it more of a "PITA".   My unit has already had three prospective members play telephone tag with various agencies (including a university campus) to get them done.

I don't understand the problem, my local PD has this system and there wasn't an issue (other than having to pay). The cadet officer took my fingerprint card, inserted it in the printer and after taking my prints, printed them on the card. The best part of those systems is no ink on the fingers.

[Psicorp]

I don't understand the problem, my local PD has this system and there wasn't an issue (other than having to pay). The cadet officer took my fingerprint card, inserted it in the printer and after taking my prints, printed them on the card. The best part of those systems is no ink on the fingers.

The couple of agencies here who use the electronic format can't print the cards, or say they can't print on the cards, for some reason.

No ink?  What fun is that?

Tags - MIKE

[Nick]

I honestly haven't even heard of an agency that didn't have a printer on an AFIS terminal.  Wow.  But yeah, that was the same way we accomplished the prints for Lackland -- the on-base personnel security office had AFIS with a printer, we furnished them the cards, and they did it on the terminal.

With that said, perhaps someone should bring the question up to NHQ/DPX about the fact that a lot more agencies are going to electronic submissions.  From what I understand of the system, you should be able to electronically submit the prints to the FBI as long as the agency furnishes CAP's ORI (ALAFCAP0Z) during the submission ... once the check is complete, CAP will receive the CHRI return through whatever process they currently receive them.

Not only will that drastically decrease the time for a senior member background check, but I'm sure whoever is converting the ten-print cards to digital format (whether it's CAP, Alabama DPS or the FBI) will be glad to see the reduced workload.

[lordmonar]

Can the AFIS printer accept the CAP finger print card?  I was under the impression that CAP could only accept finger prints on their cards with the CAP overprint (which still have the old charter number squares).

Is this not the case anymore?  Can they accept any finger print card now...or does it have to be a specific format?  Anyone?  Bueller?

[davedove]

The police here in Frederick use the electronic system and were able to print on the CAP provided card, so I would think others could do so as well.

[Hawk200]

The police here in Frederick use the electronic system and were able to print on the CAP provided card, so I would think others could do so as well.

The cards are pretty much standard. Whenever I got fingerprinted in joining CAP, or the Guard, the active duty, or just needed it for a security clearance, every last one of those cards was the same one. Just different agency stuff in the one corner. They were all even the same size and shape.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I bought an ink pad several years ago, and its still good.  When the police department I worked for went to an inkless computerized system, they threw out all the card holders, so I scarfed one up.

Some local PD's charge our people, some don't.  Some require appointments.  It is just easier to do it ourselves.

I went out to the civilian job of a new member once to fingerprint her.  She was a bank manager (and a blonde).  I asked her to show me where the break room was, so that we could do the fingerprinting in private.  She said that wasn't necessary, that we could use the edge of her desk.

So... I asked her:  "Are you sure you want the customers to see the Branch Manager being fingerprinted when they're coming in to deposit their life's savings?"

Oh...  The break room's in the back.

[RiverAux]

I guess I always ASSumed it was required that the printing be done by a LE agency.  Of course, most CG Aux units do it themselves (and some of their trained fingerprinters are now augmenting CG units where they are fingerprinting mariners). 

Seems to me that this has been one of the hidden hassles of getting a new person into CAP.   Making them go out and find someone to do this seems to be a waste of their time. 

If the CAP units can do it themselves (without too many getting rejected for whatever reasons), then we probably should do it that way. 

[lordmonar]

I guess I always ASSumed it was required that the printing be done by a LE agency.  Of course, most CG Aux units do it themselves (and some of their trained fingerprinters are now augmenting CG units where they are fingerprinting mariners). 

Seems to me that this has been one of the hidden hassles of getting a new person into CAP.   Making them go out and find someone to do this seems to be a waste of their time. 

If the CAP units can do it themselves (without too many getting rejected for whatever reasons), then we probably should do it that way. 

That is one of the reasons why I decided to do my self.  I started to think....it's not like cops have to get a special linsens just to take finger prints.  There is not even a place to put down where the prints were taken, just a name and signature.

[Nick]

Can the AFIS printer accept the CAP finger print card?  I was under the impression that CAP could only accept finger prints on their cards with the CAP overprint (which still have the old charter number squares).

Is this not the case anymore?  Can they accept any finger print card now...or does it have to be a specific format?  Anyone?  Bueller?

An FD-258 is an FD-258 ... is an FD-258.  Most every agency has FD-258s with overprinted ORIs on them, and AFIS does not print anything into the ORI block (unless the terminal is specifically configured to do so with an OCR font).  So, if you were to take an FD-258 with CAP overprint and feed it through an AFIS printer, it "might" print something in the reason fingerprinted block, but it won't be nearly large or bold enough to kill the "VOLUNTEER" and charter number.

In other words: If you're sending in a ten-print card, you can use AFIS with CAP's FD-258 card stock.

[afgeo4]

or... NHQ could pressure the Air Force to add our members into DEERS so we can be fully secured and so that military installations can feel safer with us being present. It will allow us to switch to the new CAC card which includes biometrics like fingerprints (when you get them taken electronically for DEERS, they can be forwarded to NHQ) our photo (same) and will limit our access only to necessary buildings (using the mag chip and mag strip). NHQ could refund USAF the money currently being spent on ID cards of both kinds in lieu of getting this done. This would also allow our members to shop AAFES online and boost their sales while passing on the savings to our members (freeing up their money for better mission-essential equipment). All this and the federal government gets to have a lot of our info in their computers in case they feel they need to check one of us a little more thoroughly. Also handy if NHQ electronic records get "lost".  Another beneift is our members being able to take AFIADL exams at military control facilities if need be.

[Nick]

Brother, we've gone down that road umpteen times.  Yes, the technical provisions are in place where CAP members could be enrolled in DEERS as AF contractors for the purposes you stated, but we run into several snags:

- A fair percentage of members are not within reasonable traveling distance of a RAPIDS enrollment site
- Any civilians/contractors receiving a CAC card must have a NAC (National Agency Check) conducted before they can even receive a CAC; that's time and money
- Right now the DoD "attempts" to maintain a 100% accountability and recovery of CAC cards; I seriously doubt they will recover CAC cards from former members
- The same issue with the CAP photo ID: Membership expires every year, are you going to issue new CAC cards (at roughly $10 a pop) every year?
- Fingerprint capture between DEERS enrollment and a 10-print submission are two totally different animals -- RAPIDS does slap captures of both index fingers; 10-print submission are roll captures of all 10 fingers plus slap captures of all 10 fingers -- the two can't even begin to compare

I can go on, but this issue has come up on quite a few occasions -- in conjunction with the release of the CAC card, the release of the CAP ID card, and several times in between.  It would be nice, but I don't see it happening.  I would rather see CAP just roll out a FIPS-201 compliant ID card for its members.

[Psicorp]

I realize I'm talking about a hefty expense here, but couldn't enrollment in DEERS be considered a "perk" with the "purchase" of a three or five year membership?  Going through the effort initially would make participation a lot easier for the next three to five years.

[afgeo4]

I realize I'm talking about a hefty expense here, but couldn't enrollment in DEERS be considered a "perk" with the "purchase" of a three or five year membership?  Going through the effort initially would make participation a lot easier for the next three to five years.

Not to mention the cost being offset by not having to produce current CAPID cards (no, they're not $10, but they do cost something). Want to make up a little more of the cost? Add $5 to the annual membership dues. That plus the savings on CAPID should make up most of the CAC expenses. The rest the AF should pay for gaining oversight and stronger background checks for people they hire to do missions for america. People in CAP don't mind paying a few extra bucks here and there as long as we know what it's going toward. Heck, most of us pay a lot more after the annual dues clear the checkbook.

[Al Sayre]

Heck, I'd give them an extra $20 just to not spend 1/2 hr in the pass office trying to get someone on the phone at MCSS to sponsor me on base to get uniform stuff every time I go.

[Nick]

Yeah unfortunately that's just a lack of training on the pass and ID office's part.

[afgeo4]

Yeah unfortunately that's just a lack of training on the pass and ID office's part.

Not necessarily. The McGuire AFB gates handle an unprecedented quantity of visitors after 2001 and all must go through the new visitors center to get passes. CAP does not get to skip that procedure. During off peak hours this could take 20-30 minutes. During peak hours... over an hour. I found that if you drive in through the Ft. Dix gate, the MPs just waive you through because they don't know any better... The ID looks funny, but USAF Auxiliary makes sense to them. More sense than it does to the SPs.

NHQ, Region HQs, many Wing HQs, Groups and Squadrons are tenant units on military bases. I wonder... do the NHQ employees and staff wait to get a pass or do they have CACs and DoD vehicle passes? I think the whole system would work better for the DoD installation commanders and force protection personnel if we were all in DEERS and had CACs and vehicle parking stickers. It's an issue of security. Ours and theirs. You'd think after the Khobar Towers the Air Force would be happy to put some money into making sure that personnel and vehicles on bases are authorized properly and efficiently.

[Pylon]

and vehicle parking stickers.

AFIs already specifically allow Civil Air Patrol members assigned to units on an AF installation to have the DoD sticker for their vehicles.  Print out the appropriate AFI and go see whomever does that at your local installation and get the sticker, if you can.  It may cut down on the access issues if you're having any.  Just an idea.

[Nick]

Not necessarily. The McGuire AFB gates handle an unprecedented quantity of visitors after 2001 and all must go through the new visitors center to get passes. CAP does not get to skip that procedure.

That's correct, our current force protection policy says everyone must have proof of the vehicle being registered (visitor's pass, DD 2220, whatever) and proof of the person operating the vehicle (CAC, CAP ID, visitor's pass, whatever).  What I mean when I say it's just a lack of training on the pass and ID office's part is:

Heck, I'd give them an extra $20 just to not spend 1/2 hr in the pass office trying to get someone on the phone at MCSS to sponsor me on base to get uniform stuff every time I go.

If the pass and ID office was properly trained with respect to the status of CAP members (and/or if the local SFS had an operating instruction that included CAP members as those authorized for base entry, as is the case with my base) then the pass and ID guy wouldn't need to spend a 1/2 hour trying to get someone to sponsor the member onto the base.

That's my point.

[afgeo4]

Airman, you're absolutely correct. They just need to issue the vehicle pass.

[arajca]

Base access also depends on the base commander's policies. If he says everyone not in DoD or AF has to go through the visitor's center, guess what? You go through the visitor's center.

[mikeylikey]

I always like to read posts saying CAP members should get CAC cards or be enrolled in DEERS.  I totally agree.  The fact of the matter is the convict recently released from Federal prison gets a job with a civilian contractor as part of the ex-cons to work program and gets a CAC card to get on a post or base.  Yet CAP members who probably have volunteered more time supporting AF missions can't get a vehicle pass to attend a SQD meeting. 

I spoke to some members of a SQD that met at a Joint Reserve base, and they were actually booted from the base after 9/11 because CAP was thought of as a threat.  Funny thing was the JRB was actually a CAP base in WWII, had a SQD that had been active since WWII and met in the same building since WWII.  Today they meet in a church and routinely have members fly missions in support of units at the JRB.  The whole thing is stupid.

CAP can easily be granted a CAC card that denotes them as civilians and I would think that the phrase "NO EXCHANGE OR COMMISSARY BENEFITS" could be stamped on the front of the card. 

A few years ago, I would go to meetings and wear my Army Uniform and stand at the Security Forces gate and vouch for CAP members when my SQD was having similar trouble.  As an Airman, having me an AD Captain stand next to you and say "that is Miss Jones she is dropping her daughter off" pushed the issue across that the Base Commander granted CAP members the ability to register their vehicles. 

I have also run into situations where the guards would not accept my CAP ID.  As soon as I pulled out my CAC, they let me right in.  Access to military posts and bases is not uniform at all.  I feel bad for those members that have trouble getting to meetings.

[Nick]

On a side question -- has anyone seen or received the new CAC yet?

[mikeylikey]

Not yet, but after reading the website, it looks like when we go to the RAPIDS office to get a new card that is expiring we will be issued the new version.  My question, what is a Federal Government Afiliate?  The CAC site addresses issuing the new cards to these afiliates.  They are not listed under the civilian contractor or DoD Civilian section. 

[Nick]

Well, I know "military affiliate" is the new PC term for "foreign military".  I dunno about Federal Government Affiliate though.

I hope my MPF hurries up and gets the new card stock by October, that'll be the next time I'm up for a new ID card.

[DNall]

I bought a fingerprinting kit 10+ years ago for the current Sq, cost about 20 bucks at the time. http://www.galls.com/ looks like 28-40 now. Sure there's cheaper if you look around.

It really is sad we don't get CAC cards. We got a statement of work agreement now, doesn't that make us emergency access or contingency contractors?