does anyone use helicopters for their SARs

[lycan1138]

I'm just wondering it would seem very practical.

[SABRE17]

quite the opposite

hundreds of dollars to operate per hour

additional flight qualifications needed

thousands of dollars in maintenance per month


not crunching the #'s, one flight hour in a helo would equal probably 5 or 7 in a C-182
Perfect if some one needs to repel into a ravine and rescue an injured hiker, but that's what the sheriffs department or USAF rescue is for.


flat and simple CAP doesn't have the $ to operate them or to train people how to fly SAR in them.

[davidsinn]

quite the opposite

hundreds of dollars to operate per hour

additional flight qualifications needed

thousands of dollars in maintenance per month


not crunching the #'s, one flight hour in a helo would equal probably 5 or 7 in a C-182
Perfect if some one needs to repel into a ravine and rescue an injured hiker, but that's what the sheriffs department or USAF rescue is for.


flat and simple CAP doesn't have the $ to operate them or to train people how to fly SAR in them.

I don't know about that. I heard recently that some of the new Eurocopters have numbers that are competitive with our 182s if you take out the pilot pay.

[Eclipse]

But you can't take out the aircrew's cost from the equation.  IN most cases the hardware is the smallest piece of the expense.

Not including capital cost, avgas is avgas.  It's payroll and benefits, plus agency overhead for things like insurance and consumables that eats up most of the money.

[RiverAux]

I think he may have been assuming that if there were choppers that cost roughly the same as a 182 that we might get them and use volunteer pilots to fly them.

[davidsinn]

But you can't take out the aircrew's cost from the equation.  IN most cases the hardware is the smallest piece of the expense.

Not including capital cost, avgas is avgas.  It's payroll and benefits, plus agency overhead for things like insurance and consumables that eats up most of the money.

If the pilot is a cop or otherwise on call, pay is irrelevant because they get paid weather they fly or not. This usually comes down to a fruit argument in the end.

[SABRE17]

It's dreamy thinking because our volunteer pilots would need a helicopter certification. there is ONE member in my unit with such a Qual, and He's a UH-60 Pilot.

And then there's the liability of using it as you intend, yes its every cadets dream to repel out of a chopper, rescue two people and fly out a hero. truth is, even the Troopers in the TAXachusetts state police wont do it. And they seem to have one of everything in this state.

I just think we need to leave something that risky and technical to the pro's.

[davidsinn]

It's dreamy thinking because our volunteer pilots would need a helicopter certification. there is ONE member in my unit with such a Qual, and He's a UH-60 Pilot.

And then there's the liability of using it as you intend, yes its every cadets dream to repel out of a chopper, rescue two people and fly out a hero. truth is, even the Troopers in the TAXachusetts state police wont do it. And they seem to have one of everything in this state.

I just think we need to leave something that risky and technical to the pro's.

There is more to rotary wing SAR then actually pulling off the rescue. It's really hard to see debris at 80kts and 1k ft agl. A helo could do it at 40kts and 200 ft. Or even lower and slower.

Let's look at the Airvans for a comparison. We have 16 of them and they burn north of 14 gal/hr of 100LL. That's expensive. Granted you can easily lift 3 scanners, an MO and the pilot and still loiter for five or six hours(the seats suck more than a Hoover and it's lacking in the technology department but it's a heck of an aircraft). If the numbers I heard for ECs are accurate we could probably justify two per region as a supplemental tool in the bag provided we could recruit some rotor pilots.

[Eclipse]

But you can't take out the aircrew's cost from the equation.  IN most cases the hardware is the smallest piece of the expense.

Not including capital cost, avgas is avgas.  It's payroll and benefits, plus agency overhead for things like insurance and consumables that eats up most of the money.

If the pilot is a cop or otherwise on call, pay is irrelevant because they get paid weather they fly or not. This usually comes down to a fruit argument in the end.

That's not how it works - first, someone is paying for it, nothing is free.  In a whole lot of cases that is you and me in the form of FEMA, insurance, or similar charge-backs and charge-throughs, and more and more agencies are scrapping or reducing their aviation departments because of the high cost.

Every cop sitting in a cockpit is one less on the street, and these days that is a real consideration.

[Hawk200]

I don't know about that. I heard recently that some of the new Eurocopters have numbers that are competitive with our 182s if you take out the pilot pay.

Pilot pay is not really the factor needed to be concerned about. Helicopters have inspection requirements well over and above a fixed wing aircraft. On military copters, there are inspections done every ten hours of flight time. Then, there's an inspection at 40 hours, another at 120, again at 360, and at 720. I'd have to do some research as to required time periods for civilian rotor wing, but I'd easily bet a dollar or two that there is a lot more than just an annual on civilian helicopters. Operating costs include fuel and maintenance.

Each inspection is probably going to find something requiring replacement. And the cost of those replacements is a lot higher than fixed wing components. A type of component for a fixed wing might be high quality, but would not even be remotely considered durable enough for use on a helicopter.

Helicopters do not operate on the same cost as fixed wing. That is unfortunately a recurring fallacy in general aviation. I've known people that wonder why it costs them so much to fly on Delta because that other little plane (a 182, for example) only burns a dozen or so gallons per hour. Not everything flys at the same cost. Helicopters may have some versatility in some applications, but they aren't the same.

I know one helicopter pilot instructor that regularly says, "If you haven't flown a helicopter today, you're not current." Maintaining currency is an issue, too. Granted, daily currency isn't a reasonable goal financially, but you'd have to fly pretty regularly to stay proficient. That's a higher cost as well, even if your pilot is a volunteer. Doubt there's any rotor pilots out there willing to "volunteer" to fly when they have to spend money on their own time to maintain currency to fly a corporate bird.

Helicopters are cool, no disagreement, but there is a price to the "cool."

[Al Sayre]

Any IC should know who to call if a helo is needed, but for all the reasons given above (& primarily cost) it's mainly a back up tool that you use after you have a reason for it, (Plane spotted something that needs to be looked at closer, but GT can't get to it for hours etc) not a primary asset.

[ol'fido]

I have on two occasions flown on state DOT choppers in the course of a mission. Once was on a SARCAP. I flew with the DOT pilot and the GLLR commander at the time, Col. Bruce Ware. The second time was on a REDCAP near Pinckneyville, IL in the late 90's. Usually, the DOT pilots have been more than willing to work with CAP here in IL.

[Hawk200]

Any IC should know who to call if a helo is needed, but for all the reasons given above (& primarily cost) it's mainly a back up tool that you use after you have a reason for it, (Plane spotted something that needs to be looked at closer, but GT can't get to it for hours etc) not a primary asset.

Back when I was in Alaska (late '90's), CAP would do the majority of the searches, and if a breathing body was found, the 210th out of Kulis would make the pickup. Worked pretty well. Not sure if they're still doing that, but it had to have been pretty effective.

As a mechanic, I can appreciate a bird only being out an hour or two, instead of five or six. More time between inspections is always nice.

[Ed Bos]

Back when I was in Alaska (late '90's), CAP would do the majority of the searches, and if a breathing body was found, the 210th out of Kulis would make the pickup. Worked pretty well. Not sure if they're still doing that, but it had to have been pretty effective.

As a mechanic, I can appreciate a bird only being out an hour or two, instead of five or six. More time between inspections is always nice.

As a member of the 210th, and CAP, I can say that the 11th RCC does a great job of marrying resources to the mission at hand, and using the right tool in their kit. CAP and the Guard cooperate together regularly.

Helicopters have their place in SAR, but it's certainly interesting to see the differing opinions in this thread.

[lycan1138]

say someone has a private helicopter the they wont mind loaning for sars i live near a resort town with a lot of rich people and it is the Ozarks region we are in with ridges everywhere which make it hard to navigate if your not used to it

[AngelWings]

 Helicopters would be impractical for us. You can find someone with a cessna or airvan just fine. It is alot less expensive in general for the owner. We can't do FRIES. If someone was hurt, and the pilot went just a little too low and started to kick up everything on the ground, there is a chance the helo would hurt the person/s we are searching for. Really, the only thing I personally could think of that we could use a helicopter, well I should say 2 things, is delivering small palletes of food and water to people during a crisis (like Hurricane Katrina), or for damage observation missions.

[lycan1138]

I'm just saying in places like i live its to steep to climb effectively and it would  be faster to insert teams like this because it would take minutes in a copter that would take hours normally

[jeders]

I'm just saying in places like i live its to steep to climb effectively and it would  be faster to insert teams like this because it would take minutes in a copter that would take hours normally

That's why, when we need to, we call on others who have the training to do these things safely. We don't/won't/can't do these things as CAP.

[EmergencyManager6]

Most REDCAP missions i have IC'd we have called in the local Sheriff's helo.  it is a FACT that helicopters are a much better platform for SAR than a Cessna.  Most sheriff dept in FL also have FLIR and a search light.  our Cessna cant match that.  Oh yah, they can hover too!

I used to get a lot of crap from the membership for calling the sheriff helo out on a SAR, but the fact is that they can be airborne and over the target before our crew gets to the airport.  Many finds / saves have happened under my watch because we launched the sheriff before our own Cessnas!

[blackrain]

I saw a price of 40k at a school in Florida to get a commercial helo license from zero hours. The same place offered a 20k price for a commercial add on to someone that already had a fixed-wing license. I think they use a Robinson at a $300/hr rate or something like that.

[EmergencyManager6]

Ok once again a great start to a great thread is derailed...... why do i bother with CAPTALK?

[Eclipse]

Ok once again a great start to a great thread is derailed...... why do i bother with CAPTALK?

No idea, but this thread is far from derailed.

All the comments are directly related to the topic.

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Threads aren't officially high-jacked until they turn into uniform debates. So what uniform should helo-pilots wear while on SAR duty?

Sorry - just an off topic observation - no harm intended. As you were.

[MIKE]

why do i bother with CAPTALK?

I dunno why either, since you've been banned multiple times under various usernames.

[EmergencyManager6]

Explain?   If i have been banned multiple times, I have no recollection of it.

Is this how it works on the forum, if the "Super Moderator" doesn't like your responses they ban you and accuse you of having multiple usernames?   

OR

Do you ban people based on IP address?  So if 3 CAP members who use the forum and work in the same building and they are all NAT'd on 1 external IP address you ban them all and accuse them of having multiple user names?  Sounds like the "Super Moderator" needs a lesson in networking 101!

OR

Is it the fact that all the real world professional responders who put their two cents in get booted because they make the rest of the CAP talkers look stupid?  So ban them too, Seems like you do anyway.

[AngelWings]

Man, today is a full marathon of "Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

[blackrain]

I will say the National Guard has a pretty robust rotary wing capability in most states. I think it was a National Guard Lakota (military version of the Eurocopter EC145) that found the missing Scouts in Arkansas a while back. Blackhawks and Chinooks have really made a name in Oklahoma with 660 Gal buckets putting out fires. Way beyond the load capacity of civilian helo's.

Potentially one R-66 (turbine) (800-900k to buy)kept on standby at mission base with a medical crew would be viable in some scenarios. Let the fixed wing A/C do the initial search unless there is a very good idea of the location of the actual site.

Of course as many have pointed out this whole cost of maintenance/crew currency is another matter. Though the point of the R-66 is it probably be the cheapest to operate turbine helicopter. I do think whatever helicopter is used would have to be turbine powered. Just no way around it.

I imagine The Great Flying Pig would say the Hughes 500 would be the best

[PHall]

Is it the fact that all the real world professional responders who put their two cents in get booted because they make the rest of the CAP talkers look stupid?  So ban them too, Seems like you do anyway.

Why are you even here?   Is it to gloat to us volunteer wannabes that you're a "professional"?

[arajca]

Is it the fact that all the real world professional responders who put their two cents in get booted because they make the rest of the CAP talkers look stupid?  So ban them too, Seems like you do anyway.

If you're a prime example of a professional responder, I'm glad I retired from the fire department.

If you review some of the qualifications of the members, you'll find there are a large number of professional responders, some paid, some not. Also there are a number of military folks here - active, veteran, reserve, guard, and retired.

Professional is a mindset, not a pay status. Your attitude here shows that you may be paid responder, but you are not a professional.

[RADIOMAN015]

It's dreamy thinking because our volunteer pilots would need a helicopter certification. there is ONE member in my unit with such a Qual, and He's a UH-60 Pilot.

And then there's the liability of using it as you intend, yes its every cadets dream to repel out of a chopper, rescue two people and fly out a hero. truth is, even the Troopers in the TAXachusetts state police wont do it. And they seem to have one of everything in this state.

I just think we need to leave something that risky and technical to the pro's.

Actually they have five helos, FLIR/spot light equipped and three airbase located throughout the state.   The special tactics teams do practice some repealing BUT generally for search and rescue they locate the subject and the local fire department will actual do the rescue, unless it might be a crime scene than a MA State Police member will also be on the team. 

Those monitoring their response with radio scanners have noted in the typical woodland lost person cellphone call searches (lost or lost because of darkness and no flash light) the helo has been able to locate the subjects in about 10 minutes.   

RM

[Eclipse]

Those monitoring their response with radio scanners...

...awesome...

[lycan1138]

wow you complain about it being derailed then you talk about something else really professional

[arajca]

Eclipse did not complain about the thread being derailed. He merely corrected EmergencyManager6 who complained about it.

[Flying Pig]

blackrain
I imagine The Great Flying Pig would say the Hughes 500 would be the best

I know I got on this a couple weeks late, but Im trying to figure out which Eurocopter operates for less than a 182?  Their smallest model, the EC120B sits right around $800 an hr.  I believe the AS350B3 is at about $1200.  The CHP just changed out one fuel controller in their B3 that cost them $58,000.  Although the 500E is relatively inexpensive to operate compared to some of the others, we had a mandatory time overhaul on our engines (we have two helos) that were $185,000 each just to crack the engine open and tighten some things up.  Nothing was broken, it was just that time.

However, the MD500E we have sits at about $250 an hr.  One of the reason we can operate so cheap is that we get Govt 1122 Jet A.  Jet A is at $3.46per ga where 100LL is at $6.50per/g.  Unfortunately 1122 doesnt apply to 100LL and CAP wouldnt qualify for it anyway.  Most LE agencies have that option.  Govt is paying about half the price for gas that CAP is.

Anyway, if anyone thinks they are going to fly SAR in a helicopter with 150hrs and a commercial, your out of your mind.  One of the arguments that always irritated me in CAP was "Well, we are cheaper...."  That isnt always the defining factor.  If thats what your going to come in with, you better have another message.  In my Department, Air Support is 1.3% of the Sheriffs overall budget. And we fly A LOT!
In State Police agencies, they are probably comparable in percentages.  So when CAP parks their 1979 Cessna 182 next to the State Police AStar FLIR, Spotlight, encrypted radios (because CAP is always so concerned with OPSEC anyway) with their pilots and crews who train daily for hours and your only argument is we are cheaper, dont be surprised when you get shown the door.

As far as the R66?  For VIP or transport flight maybe.  EMS?  No.  The inside of those things are unbelievable cramped.  If your going to spend $1mil on a helo, it wouldnt be a Robinson.  But you are correct with the assertion that any helo would need to be a turbine.  Flight School use the Robinson because they are cheap.  Not because they are the best choice.  Thats not the criteria I would use to select a helicopter used for SAR.

Actually, the 500E isnt always the best.  Id go with the MD530F if I had the choice Cant beat hover out of ground effect at max gross weight at 16,000ft!

[MikeD]

we had a mandatory time overhaul on our engines (we have two helos) that were $185,000 each just to crack the engine open and tighten some things up.  Nothing was broken, it was just that time.

Wow, that's more then it'd cost us to get some F100-PW-220's overhauled (for an F-15D).  Is that a typical overhaul cost for you guys?

[Flying Pig]

This was a complete overhaul done at Rolls Royce. The engines are 13 years old and its the first time its been done.  I dont recall the name of the particular overhaul.  Compressor, Hot section, gear boxes, the works.

[Stearmann4]

Helicopters are the preferred direct SAR platform, however, they're only useful if you have the skilled labor (both in the cockpit, and repelling, etc) to effect a rescue. Otherwise, they can only be used as spotters, in which case, the corporation would be saving thousands of dollars using a C-182.

That said, even an R-44 isn't capable of anything except landing to off-load an EMT, etc. You can't hoist, repell, or fit a litter in it. Also, helicopters aren't necessarily harder to fly, but you can certainly get into some catastrophic situations much faster than a Cessna. You also couldn't do much with anything less than an R-44, and even departments using them don't do any "rescues", just spotting and dropping off officers. As was stated before, the hourly operating cost of even an R-22 is astronomically more than a C-182.

For a reference, you can get a job as a 500hr Cessna CFI, you can't touch a commercial helicopter job with less than 1,000hrs and turbine time. This is mostly driven by the insurance industry, which would most likely affect CAP as well. Any flight school operating Robinsons or Schweizer 269s  will allow you to solo the aircraft as long as you're a student, but as soon as you pass your checkride their insurance will not allow you to rent solo. Again, insurance driven, but it should indicate the industry's perception of the dangers of low time helicopter pilots, much less those same pilots flying rescue in confined, hazardous terrain. Nice to dream about, but we should probably just leave helicopter rescues to the agencies resourced and trained to accomplish them. Just locating a survivor validates CAP, and plays a majpor role in rescue operations.

Flying Pig is spot on with the cost analysis. "Being cheapest" in any aspect of rescue operations often direclty relates to the quality of service, and capability of equipment. There are no great deals" in aviation. Assuming a corps of already qualifed and current pilots, and CAP got "free" ex-military OH-58s and operated them under "public use", maintenance and insurance costs would kill the corporation. I see wealthy clients come in frequently and buy a decked out MD-500C, or B-206, and all is bliss until they bring it back for annual and get slapped with a 10-25K bill. helicopters of any breed are expensive horses to keep.

Also, a PVT helo guy flying an R-22 from pt A to B, is a couple of thousand hours away from orbiting a remote crash site, or landing in a windy gorge to off load a rescue professional. You don't have to be a Jedi Knight, but helicopter SAR is an entirely different world than fixed wing.

And yes, the MD530FF is the hottest thing going:o) Our company just pulled a climber off Mt Rainier with ours and still had 15% OGE power left.

Mike-

[Flying Pig]

I see wealthy clients come in frequently and buy a decked out MD-500C, or B-206, and all is bliss until they bring it back for annual and get slapped with a 10-25K bill.

Thats all?    Our mechanic does some work on the side for a 500E owner.  The owner had his annual done by another company because of time constraints on our mechanics time.  The bill was $13,000.   My mechanic went through the guys bill line by line and found about $3000 in what he considered outrageous over inflations and unneeded charges.  One that was funny was in addition to some other work was $600 to "detail" the helicopter.  $300 for the interior and $200 for a wash and wax.  $100 for "protective equipment" that was needed to remove a Black Widow spider.  Ive seen this helicopter many times and it is kept PRISTINE condition! Dude was livid!