Flying in shorts with golf shirt

[Persona non grata]

Cant find the answer in the KB, are shorts authorized with the polo while flying?

Thanks, its starting to get hot up there

[Eclipse]

Not for the general CAP population.

A few schools have waivers, NESA & Johnson come to mind, and I think there was talk that in FLA they have a supplement, but
for the rest of us, no.

[Persona non grata]

Thanks, Would have been nice.........I will get the polo and find some very thin Grey pants.  I wish I could get the 5.11 polo with the pen pocket ob the sleeve in a CAP version.  Plus they dont fade and they have them in wicking material.


thanks for the quick answer

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What about light grey rip-stop summer weight BDU/Police Tactical pants?

[coudano]

I think the gulf coastal patrols have autho to do that as well...

[Persona non grata]

I have looked at some 5.11 pants, enough pockets and durable.  Th eones I wore for duty purposes were great.  Very light and durable.  Both .11 shirt and pants would make a nice flight uniform,

[NC Hokie]

I will get the polo and find some very thin Grey pants.  I wish I could get the 5.11 polo with the pen pocket ob the sleeve in a CAP version.  Plus they dont fade and they have them in wicking material.

I remember reading that someone took their own polos into Vanguard in Norfolk, VA and had them embroider the CAP seal on it while they waited.  It might be worth a call to them to see if they could do the same for a mail-in, or see if someone local to Norfolk or Carlsbad, CA (the other Vanguard site) can help you with this.

[SarDragon]

San Carlsbad? Nope. Just Carlsbad. San Diego is to the south.

[NC Hokie]

San Carlsbad? Nope. Just Carlsbad. San Diego is to the south.

Right, Carlsbad...  That's what I said (the second time). 

[vento]

San Carlsbad? Nope. Just Carlsbad. San Diego is to the south.

Right, Carlsbad...  That's what I said (the second time). 

Vanguard West in Carlsbad is located near the Carlsbad PD and they don't carry anything CAP related. Absolutely nil. Everything comes from Vanguard East.

[SarDragon]

BTDT. They said I had to get the t-shirt from Virginia.

[vento]

Cant find the answer in the KB, are shorts authorized with the polo while flying?

Thanks, its starting to get hot up there

Yes, you can if you are in CAWG and flying a sailplane.

1-5.d Added. Special Uniform for Sailplane Operations. Members may wear a CAP
distinctive shirt (Squadron shirt, activity shirt, or any approved knit golf shirt) with dark blue or
khaki shorts (hemmed) or BDU pants and tennis shoes while participating in sailplane
operations.

[peter rabbit]

I have looked at some 5.11 pants, enough pockets and durable.  Th eones I wore for duty purposes were great.  Very light and durable.  Both .11 shirt and pants would make a nice flight uniform,

Agreed, but not approved by NHQ.

[DC]

I have looked at some 5.11 pants, enough pockets and durable.  Th eones I wore for duty purposes were great.  Very light and durable.  Both .11 shirt and pants would make a nice flight uniform,

Agreed, but not approved by NHQ.

Says who? There is no specified brand or style of pants with the polo uniform, just the vague 'medium gray' requirement.

[RiverAux]

I really wish the KB would post the answer that they gave me (no six pocket pants) when I asked them.  I guess they figured that it was so obvious that there was no need to post it there. 

[EMT-83]

Maybe it's not there because someone's personal opinion isn't supported by regulation or ICL?

[peter rabbit]

From Susie Parker when asked specifically about using the tactical pants while flying:

The gray trousers worn with the golf shirt do not have to be dress slacks and can be cotton/twill trousers but not cargo style with the extra pockets.

From CAPM 39-1 table 4-4:

Commercial slacks/trousers in medium gray color, full cut, straight hanging, with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. Cotton/twill weave trousers are authorized (no jeans). 

My personal opinion is that the definition does not prohibit cargos or tacticals, but I won't go against Ms Parker's interpretation/advice unless/until someone with more authority tells me otherwise. I have had a problem finding any durable medium gray pants suitable for flying other than cargo/tactical. I do have one pair of decent gray pants I can use but they are lighter than I would like. However, they are darker than other grays so they can't be excluded from the medium range. I just about ruined one pair of medium gray dress slacks before I found those.

[Eclipse]

My personal opinion is that the definition does not prohibit cargos or tacticals, but I won't go against Ms Parker's interpretation/advice unless/until someone with more authority tells me otherwise.

The regs are the higher authority and do not provide a definition.  Ms. Parker does not have the authority to tighten the definition based on
her say so, alone, especially in light of the fact that A number of Wing CC have authorized there wear of these types of pants.

This is the problem with asking the KB or an NHQ staffer directly when the response is anything but a direct quote of the reg.  Since the only way to amend, change, or tighten a regulation or definition is via an approved supplement, ICL, or full reg update, an email like this holds no weight.

You've answered your own question with a quote which is the authority (the fact the 39-1 is no longer the sole authority on uniforms not withstanding).

[peter rabbit]

Eclipse:

Is your approach to this:

1. ignore what NHQ staff offer as advice
2. open a dialog with the staff and attempt to reach a consensus or at least both sides understanding the other
3. since CAPM 39-1 table 1-3 does not authorize Wing CCs to permit use of tacticals/cargos, except possibly for special purposes, require all wings to standardize uniforms except in those special circumstances
4. submit requests for changes/clarifications to CAPM 39-1 in the hopes everything will be 'crystal clear' before we die
5. other?

[Eclipse]

1: Read reg.

2: Look at pants.

3: Pants fit definition.

4: End.

No "clarification", "authorization", or other interrogatories, queries, or questions are or were necessary because the program ends at Line 3.
Only people with logic errors, buffer overflows, or serious processor flaws (perhaps a Pentium Floating Point error?) could break out of a program
like the one above...

...unless...

...they intentionally hit "CTRL-BRK" because they have a personal agenda or issue with the program and cannot allow it to run.
In which case they will load up on Mountain Dew and Cheetos and run their orange-stained, caffeine-fueled fingers to nubs trying to
find a problem with the code.

Except they can't because it is airtight, so the only way to produce an error is by injecting something external that doesn't actually
fit the codebase but will confuse the processor enough to slow things down.

The only solution is for the developer to recompile the executable with explicit instructions, which is not likely to happen anytime soon,
especially since it is not necessary, and the error is only reproduced on a small number of obsolete systems.  Current-generation
machines, including those which have been recently upgraded, run the application lightning fast and move on to the next task.

[a2capt]

It's All About the Pentiums..

* a2capt tosses another analog on the fire ... and sits back to enjoy the show.

[peter rabbit]

1: Read reg.

2: Look at pants.

3: Pants fit definition.

4: End.

I thought the original four-line response was good. Do the additional remarks mean I need to take my PS/2 and go home?

Note: My question was really just that - a question wondering how someone else would handle this since 39-1 is in such need of an overhaul.

[Al Sayre]

Cant find the answer in the KB, are shorts authorized with the polo while flying?

Thanks, its starting to get hot up there

To answer the OP question.  In SER, the approved summer flying uniform is CAP Polo Shirt, khaki shorts, black belt, white socks and tennis shoes.  In addition this requires your Wing Commanders concurrence.  Before anyone else gets up and screams, this was authorized  by the National Commander two years ago for when temps exceed 90 degrees, and re-confirmed by the new SER/CC only yesterday morning, in a meeting at the SER conference I attended, the CAP/CC was also in attendance.

[davidsinn]

Cant find the answer in the KB, are shorts authorized with the polo while flying?

Thanks, its starting to get hot up there

To answer the OP question.  In SER, the approved summer flying uniform is CAP Polo Shirt, khaki shorts, black belt, white socks and tennis shoes.  In addition this requires your Wing Commanders concurrence.  Before anyone else gets up and screams, this was authorized  by the National Commander two years ago for when temps exceed 90 degrees, and re-confirmed by the new SER/CC only yesterday morning, in a meeting at the SER conference I attended, the CAP/CC was also in attendance.

Why do pilots get a special uniform for when it's hot yet everyone else still has to wear pants? That blacktop ramp you just taxied off of with the thermometer reading 120+ degrees? Yeah those flightline guys still have to wear a proper uniform

[Flyinsarge]

If you have your own plane, it's okay.

[Al Sayre]

Cant find the answer in the KB, are shorts authorized with the polo while flying?

Thanks, its starting to get hot up there

To answer the OP question.  In SER, the approved summer flying uniform is CAP Polo Shirt, khaki shorts, black belt, white socks and tennis shoes.  In addition this requires your Wing Commanders concurrence.  Before anyone else gets up and screams, this was authorized  by the National Commander two years ago for when temps exceed 90 degrees, and re-confirmed by the new SER/CC only yesterday morning, in a meeting at the SER conference I attended, the CAP/CC was also in attendance.

Why do pilots get a special uniform for when it's hot yet everyone else still has to wear pants? That blacktop ramp you just taxied off of with the thermometer reading 120+ degrees? Yeah those flightline guys still have to wear a proper uniform

Simple:  Because we asked our Wing/CC who asked the Region/CC who asked the CAP/CC who approved it.

It never hurts to ask, all they can do is say no (or say yes and then point and laugh at your boney legs     ).

[FW]

For some reason, I remember the National Board allowing shorts and polo shirt to be worn in gliders and tow planes.  I don't remember any general permission to wear shorts while flying in any other situation.

I'll let you folks figure out why that is important.... :angel:

[Persona non grata]

It all good now ,  my  pants length is a 32, I am going to find some 33W 16 L trousers so I am set . 

By the way. I like the RAAF summer uniform. I was told by an old timer that the USAF had something similar back in the day.

[lordmonar]

For some reason, I remember the National Board allowing shorts and polo shirt to be worn in gliders and tow planes.  I don't remember any general permission to wear shorts while flying in any other situation.

I'll let you folks figure out why that is important.... :angel:

One of the many things you can fix when you become boss.   

All it takes is the National CC to hold his/her subordinate commanders to up holding the regulations.  It really does not help us as the squadron level to yell "but that's not in the reg" when higher HQ issues orders, policy letters, suplements, etc that are not supported by the same regulations.

It removes the moral authority of quoting regulations.
If the SER/CC or PAWG/CC or who ever is able to suplement regulations where it clearly says they can't....why can't a squadron commander or any other officer?

[/rant]

[PHall]

Why do pilots get a special uniform for when it's hot yet everyone else still has to wear pants? That blacktop ramp you just taxied off of with the thermometer reading 120+ degrees? Yeah those flightline guys still have to wear a proper uniform

Because if you pass out on the flight line you just fall a couple of feet to the ground. Pass out in the plane and it can get a lot messier.

[AirDX]

Why do pilots get a special uniform for when it's hot yet everyone else still has to wear pants? That blacktop ramp you just taxied off of with the thermometer reading 120+ degrees? Yeah those flightline guys still have to wear a proper uniform

For protection from sun, wind, flying FOD and whatever other hazards are floating around the flightline.  It's a lot easier to rotate personnel on and off the flightline in hot weather than it is to rotate the flightcrew out at 3,500 feet.

[davidsinn]

Why do pilots get a special uniform for when it's hot yet everyone else still has to wear pants? That blacktop ramp you just taxied off of with the thermometer reading 120+ degrees? Yeah those flightline guys still have to wear a proper uniform

For protection from sun, wind, flying FOD and whatever other hazards are floating around the flightline.  It's a lot easier to rotate personnel on and off the flightline in hot weather than it is to rotate the flightcrew out at 3,500 feet.

Just hydrate properly and you won't have a problem. Ground teams seem to survive ok humping gear through the woods under worse conditions than are likely to be seen in an aircraft. I don't have a problem with the glider exemption because gliders have very little airflow in the cabin.

[peter rabbit]

Just hydrate properly and you won't have a problem.

Ever tried hydrating properly while remaining in the air for three to four hours? Interesting results - yes, there are solutions but we can't step behind a bush. 

[JC004]

Just hydrate properly and you won't have a problem.

Ever tried hydrating properly while remaining in the air for three to four hours? Interesting results - yes, there are solutions but we can't step behind a bush. 

maaaaaaan....I remember one of my Scanner missions on which I had a lot to drink before (that is, Mountain Dew) and it turned out to be a bumpy flight.  HORRIBLE combination. 

[Eclipse]

Ever tried hydrating properly while remaining in the air for three to four hours?

Yes.

[JeffDG]

Just hydrate properly and you won't have a problem.

Ever tried hydrating properly while remaining in the air for three to four hours? Interesting results - yes, there are solutions but we can't step behind a bush. 

Durring summer SAREX's down south, the plumb assignment is Highbird... :clap:

[lordmonar]

Just hydrate properly and you won't have a problem.

Ever tried hydrating properly while remaining in the air for three to four hours? Interesting results - yes, there are solutions but we can't step behind a bush. 

Yes......it is called a Piddle Pack.

[davidsinn]

What I'm gathering from this thread is that flyers; can't take the heat and can't hold their water...

[Майор Хаткевич]

What I'm gathering from this thread is that flyers; can't take the heat and can't hold their water...

^^^

+1

[Al Sayre]

It's all about ORM.  In this case, the most significant risk is heat exhaustion, which would be a major contributing factor to a landing accident or a loss of situational awareness at a low altitude.   An in-flight fire would be mitigated by wearing a Nomex flight suit, but it has a much lower probability of occurence, and the mitigation strategy for the low probability fire directly adds to the probablility of the most significant risk - heat exhaustion.  Therefore we do what we can to mitigate the risk - wearing lighter clothing to allow more evaporative cooling.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, how many planes have crashed or had accidents because of heat stress on the pilot and crew?  I won't argue that it doesn't get hot, but if people are going to start throwing out ORM, lets see some facts and statistics just like what is usually demanded of those favoring NOMEX all the time. 

[Al Sayre]

I don't know if you are going to find a lot of crash data, but I can bet that you can find a lot of pilots who will admit to feeling wiped out after a 3-4 hour sortie at 1000' in 100 deg plus heat.  We should have all seen or heard the info about fatigue being equal to drinking and driving, and heat will definitely contribute to fatigue.  ORM tells us to mitigate the hazards with the greatest probability.  This is one that we can help mitigate.  We can also (possibly) plan for shorter sorties 2 hrs. vs 4 hrs. etc.

[Spaceman3750]

Heat exhaustion might be the high risk in an aircraft, but heat stroke is often the high risk for a ground team and that guarantees you a trip to the hospital and an accident report. We GTs are pretty wiped out after a 4 hour sortie in 100F heat too.

That said, I wouldn't go into any sort of brush in shorts and a T shirt for anything - I want the protection long sleeves/pants provides and will trade off being darn hot for avoiding tearing my extremities up and sunburn.

[RADIOMAN015]

Golf shirts with shorts -- wow, that would really push the envelope with the military wanna bees in their green flight suits (a few in our units even bought the new green boots) flying around in those little, red, white, & blue planes, performing Missions for America!

Remember you really didn't join CAP to be comfortable did you

I'm not sure as the PAO I would take pictures of SM's in golf shirts with shorts, BUT historically the USAF even had a shorts for a uniform (although the socks kind of negated the meaning of shorts), SO the golf shirt with shorts would be fine for me.

RM

[HGjunkie]

Golf shirts with shorts -- wow, that would really push the envelope with the military wanna bees in their green flight suits (a few in our units even bought the new green boots) flying around in those little, red, white, & blue planes, performing Missions for America!

They're not wannabes.

[JC004]

...
I'm not sure as the PAO I would take pictures of SM's in golf shirts with shorts, BUT historically the USAF even had a shorts for a uniform (although the socks kind of negated the meaning of shorts), SO the golf shirt with shorts would be fine for me.

RM

But you will notice that they DON'T have such a uniform.

Of course the military hasn't been operating in any hot environments in recent years, so I guess it wouldn't even be necessary.

[dbaran]

Let's see...

If I fly at NESA as a MP/MS/MO, I can wear a T-shirt and shorts ("official NESA flying uniform")
If I fly at a SAREX in CA, I have to wear a NOMEX flight suit.
If I fly a certain CD mission in CA, I can't wear anything with a CAP logo, which ... um...includes the NOMEX flight suit with the CAP logo sewn onto it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Let's see...

If I fly at NESA as a MP/MS/MO, I can wear a T-shirt and shorts ("official NESA flying uniform")
If I fly at a SAREX in CA, I have to wear a NOMEX flight suit.
If I fly a certain CD mission in CA, I can't wear anything with a CAP logo, which ... um...includes the NOMEX flight suit with the CAP logo sewn onto it.

Because the CAPs plastered all over the plane aren't enough? Lol.

[PHall]

Let's see...

If I fly at NESA as a MP/MS/MO, I can wear a T-shirt and shorts ("official NESA flying uniform")
If I fly at a SAREX in CA, I have to wear a NOMEX flight suit.
If I fly a certain CD mission in CA, I can't wear anything with a CAP logo, which ... um...includes the NOMEX flight suit with the CAP logo sewn onto it.

Because the CAPs plastered all over the plane aren't enough? Lol.

No, it's because the "customer" has requested that we not wear any CAP insignia, that's why.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I get that. I'm saying that the labels on the aircraft are...more noticeable.

[HGjunkie]

I get that. I'm saying that the labels on the aircraft are...more noticeable.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhh... 

[PHall]

I get that. I'm saying that the labels on the aircraft are...more noticeable.

That has been pointed out, but, they still don't want us in uniform while flying for them.
And since they're paying us to fly, we do as they ask. It is a reasonable request.

[SARDOC]

Let's see...

If I fly at NESA as a MP/MS/MO, I can wear a T-shirt and shorts ("official NESA flying uniform")
If I fly at a SAREX in CA, I have to wear a NOMEX flight suit.
If I fly a certain CD mission in CA, I can't wear anything with a CAP logo, which ... um...includes the NOMEX flight suit with the CAP logo sewn onto it.

Because the CAPs plastered all over the plane aren't enough? Lol.

I've heard my wing utilizes rental aircraft for the CD missions to avoid that very issue.  I don't know for a fact because I've never done it.

[Eclipse]

I get that. I'm saying that the labels on the aircraft are...more noticeable.

That has been pointed out, but, they still don't want us in uniform while flying for them.
And since they're paying us to fly, we do as they ask. It is a reasonable request.

And just because the aircraft is easily identifiable doesn't mean the aircrew needs to be.
I agree, reasonable.

[bosshawk]

Having spent 15 years flying CD missions in CA, I can assure you that the markings on the aircraft have only a minor role in whether or not our customer wants or doesn't want CAP out in public.  The real issue has to do with our access to facilities(buildings) where the customer is not known by their real association.  Therefore, they ask us to wear civilian clothes and not identify ourselves to anyone outside the building.  Of course, on occasions we use vans with the CAP markings, but that is only incidental.  Wearing flight suits is a dead give away to our affiliation.  Doesn't always seem to make sense, but that is the way it is.

Having worked for an organization that excelled in covert operations, I just about had a fit when I first started flying for CAP.  I finally just shrugged my shoulders and moved on.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's what I don't get. If someone at the airport is monitoring who comes and goes, it doesn't really matter if you get out of the car naked/as a clown/in a business suit. Once you get into a CAP airplane, it becomes quite obvious who you are.

The rental aircraft make sense, but then defeats the purpose of using our craft at a more economical rate I suppose.

I don't want this to become a discussion of what our CD people do and don't, but I guess I'm just not seeing where CAP anything on an outfit matters when most (all by now?) CAP Corp craft are covered in decals like a Christmas tree.

[FW]

When it comes to what a "customer" wants; it's their dime and, we allow it.   Uniforms are optional in some cases while flying.  As long as you have permission from the proper authority and, have a current membership card with you, wear whatever you want....(see what can happen when you start making exceptions)

[RVT]

When it comes to what a "customer" wants; it's their dime and, we allow it.   Uniforms are optional in some cases while flying.  As long as you have permission from the proper authority and, have a current membership card with you, wear whatever you want....(see what can happen when you start making exceptions)

It could always be something as simple as changing your clothes is a lot easier than changing the way the airplane is painted.  Or did anybody think of that?

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

I get that. I'm saying that the labels on the aircraft are...more noticeable.

That has been pointed out, but, they still don't want us in uniform while flying for them.
And since they're paying us to fly, we do as they ask. It is a reasonable request.

Not sure that "they" are actually paying us for this mission...

[bosshawk]

I guess that I have to repeat what I previously stated: it has nothing to do with the airplane and its markings.  The issue that I was addressing was CAP's use of buildings, owned by the customer, that are not known to be owned by that customer. Those buildings are not on the airport and are some distance from the airports.  Some of your are correct, we could change into flight suits or blue/gray or Speedos at the airport and it wouldn't make any difference.  However, one of CAWG's missions is along the Mexican border and comfortable clothes are a BIG DEAL  The crews appreciate getting the chance to wear something other than a uniform, when they fly 3 to 3.5 hrs at 1000 AGL in that torrid weather.

By the way, whether or not the customer is paying for the flight has nothing to do with this discussion.  In fact, in most cases, they don't pay: the money comes out of the appropriated funds from Congress.

If someone wants to sit at the airport and write down tail numbers and record that they were CAP airplanes, so be it.  Only the uniform Nazis care.