Mess Dress

[freeflight]

Question:
How many people on this forum have mess dress uniforms?

[shorning]

I do.  Oh...you meant for CAP...never mind....

[T34 Flyer]

dito

[AlphaSigOU]

Nichts mich. (Not me.)

Like a tux (which I own - there are several Masonic/Eastern Star functions I attend during the year which require me to wear a tux), I find it hard to justify paying $300+ for the 'penguin suit' and its accessories if I'm not going to wear it more than twice a year. Plus, I'm too far away from an MCSS to go try one on.

They really need to allow wear of mini medals with a civvy tux instead of that 'semi-formal' combination abomination for the TPU. (Sorry, a bow tie with a double-breasted suit just doesn't cut it.)

[Monty]

Question:
How many people on this forum have mess dress uniforms?

I do.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I used to.  I "Outgrew" it.  I sold it to another officer.

I'll probably get another on this year, not that my weight is down and still dropping.

[Major_Chuck]

Not I.  Don't see any need to really own one.  (Too expensive!).  If I buy one it will be an Army Mess Dress.  I'm personnally downsizing the number of CAP uniform combinations I own.  It is just silly and absurb to own every conceivable uniform combination.

[Monty]

Well, just to supplement my "I do" post.

I agree that it is a bit silly to own every CAP uniform combo known to man, but I must also confess.........I get to cheat a little bit by supplementing any CAP-specific stuff with several modified AF duds I have hanging in the closet.

Namely.....the expensive Mess Dress that had a former life as a USAF version.....    It's much cheaper to switch out the sleeve braid and insignia (well, and buy a few extra CAP mini-medals) than it would be to start from scratch and get the whole thing....

Of course, the whole issue is for not, given that I've become a bit partial to a beard...   

[ColonelJack]

I do.  (But I will refrain from posting a picture of myself in it.  You're welcome.)

Jack

[DrJbdm]

 I do,  I own two of them...I guess for the times that my weight decides to flutuate a bit (and it seems to do this all on it's own...the gain part that is! lol)..go up 20 pounds, grab the larger one...go down 20 pounds grab the smaller one. Now I'm trying to fit into the smaller one by Wing Conferance. I got both of them on ebay including all the goodies you need with them. I think I paid around $30 each for them.

[Robert Hartigan]

I am selling one!!!!!

[RiverAux]

No, and have no intention of ever getting one.  If I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars for something I'll hardly ever make use of I can think of several alternatives that I'd enjoy more.

[DrJbdm]

 Robert, What size is the mess dress you're selling? I know an Officer I'm good friends with who is looking for one.

[isuhawkeye]

Im looking for one.  Its tough to find one in 50L.  Ill order it from AFES some day

[Robert Hartigan]

The mess dress for sale is listed in the Marketplace forum under "Everything CAP Must Go" Jacket 41; pants 35x27

[ColonelJack]

I know what you mean about finding one in size 50.  I got mine off eBay after looking for eleven months!  It fit fine, but was a 50L ... so I had the sleeves shortened and voila -- it works.

Jack

[Psicorp]

I just recently bought a Mess Dress on Ebay in my size for $45.  I would never consider buying one new from AAFES.  I'll take my time getting the medals and such for it and have it complete just in time for the Wing Conference, where I'll wear it and then put it away until the folllowing year. 

[Major_Chuck]

I do.  (But I will refrain from posting a picture of myself in it.  You're welcome.)

Jack

Too late Jack.  I've seen the pictures!

[Robert Hartigan]

The absolute best mess dress story I have is when my wife asked me if the button chain to close the mess dress jacket was longer the higher the rank you were. She noticed this when we sat at a table with a CAP Colonel that must have had 8 inches of chain holding his jacket closed. She said that if that was the style then it just made you look fat to have that much chain and that the Air Force should redesign the jacket to look better. I told her how expensive the uniform was and that it was cheaper to buy links for the chain. Then she told me how much she spent on the dress she was wearing that night; mess dress uniforms are cheap in comparison.

[lordmonar]

I got two!  One for CAP and USAF.  The CAP one I got for free and the USAF one I got because I got married in it...If I was going to spend $300 for a tux I might as well get one I would wear more than once.

Last year I spend more time in my USAF Mess Dress than I did in my service dress...go figure?

[MIKE]

I have Service Dress but not Mess Dress.  If I had a set it would probably only be worn once a year... and the times it would be worn I can usually get by with Service Dress.  I didn't end up going to the NER banquet a couple of years ago because I couldn't wear Service Dress, and didn't have a suit at the time.

[Pylon]

Got one.  (Actually have two jackets right now because I just got a bigger size for my expanding waistline  ).

http://www.kieloch.net/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=52
You can spot my in my mess dress kit on the far left. 

(But I oddly don't own service dress)

[BlueLakes1]

I've got a mess dress, but I got lucky to find one at a base thrift store. $50 for the uniform, $15 for the mods (pants hemmed and sleeve braid swapped). If it wasn't for the low price, I'd not have one.

[MIKE]

What size is your old jacket Mike?

[ColonelJack]

Quoting CAP Safety Dude:

"Too late Jack.  I've seen the pictures!"

Yes, but I'm dashing, aren't I?   

Jack

[Pylon]

What size is your old jacket Mike?

39L.  Looking for one? 

[MIKE]

What size is your old jacket Mike?

39L.  Looking for one? 

Might be a little snug... Normally wear a 40.

[BillB]

Check eBay,  current mess dress for $25 and up

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=unknown&sbrftog=1&from=R10&catref=C6&satitle=usaf%2C+uniform&sacat=13956%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=

[Major Carrales]

I have never owned one.  It seems that the 300 or so dollars would be better spent buying a radio, or Squadron Colors for a Cadet color guard, or give it to the unit avitors to go fly.

If I may editorialize...

I think CAP Service Dress should be the "Mess Dress."  Yes, I know the USAF has one and we seek to parallel the USAF uniform example...however...   In a world where the average CAP officer wears BDUs or short sleeve shirt combo and seldom even finds time for a service coat, it seems that the service coat is considered uber-formal by most CAP Officers.

I also agree with (I beleive it was...) Chuck who mentioned that wear of CAP mini-medals on a conservative Tux (no ruffles, plumes, tails, tophats, "pimp cains" or the like)

[MIKE]

If you can find a used one that fits on the cheap it might not be so bad.  I don't think I would buy a new one unless I absolutely had to have one... Like when I become CAP/CC. 

Semi-formal for seniors might be a good idea, but IIRC it would break with how the USAF does things.

[AlphaSigOU]

If you can find a used one that fits on the cheap it might not be so bad.  I don't think I would buy a new one unless I absolutely had to have one... Like when I become CAP/CC. 

Semi-formal for seniors might be a good idea, but IIRC it would break with how the USAF does things.

I never particularly cared for the semi-formal uniform - dump the nametag and swap the light blue shirt for white and put on a black bow tie (old style) or just change out the shirt and keep the blue tie (new style). And I don't particularly like it in the new TPU service digs, either.

In the RealAirForce®, semi-formal is generally the enlisted formal uniform, though there's no restriction on them purchasing mess dress. Officers, however are required to purchase mess dress.

[DNall]

I have never owned one.  It seems that the 300 or so dollars would be better spent buying a radio, or Squadron Colors for a Cadet color guard, or give it to the unit avitors to go fly.

If I may editorialize...

I think CAP Service Dress should be the "Mess Dress."  Yes, I know the USAF has one and we seek to parallel the USAF uniform example...however...   In a world where the average CAP officer wears BDUs or short sleeve shirt combo and seldom even finds time for a service coat, it seems that the service coat is considered uber-formal by most CAP Officers.

I also agree with (I beleive it was...) Chuck who mentioned that wear of CAP mini-medals on a conservative Tux (no ruffles, plumes, tails, tophats, "pimp cains" or the like)

I also don't own one & don't really ever plan to. We do have a few military balls & such around here I could whip it out for, assuming I cared to pay for the priveledge of rep'ing CAP at any of that.

AF officers have to buy them out of pocket, and they probably make less than you Joe. Unless they're going to embassy parties on a regular basis or something they probably only pull it out a couple times a year at most - just like us. They have to have it cause everyone does. We don't tend to get them, and I won't bother getting one, cause most of us don't have one.

Far as minis on civis. Real mil medals are authorized like that. The brits have some tradtions with the practice. I think it'd be fine with a limited number (one line maybe) on the lapel. That or maybe you'd prefer a badge on the lapel.

Semi-formal is stupid. Leave that for cadet officers, cadet enlisted in service dress. Adults wear service dress, mess dress, or civilian suit/tux as appropriate. Getting people in that range of stuff versus a golf shirt or BDUs is the bigger issue ot worry about.

[Major Carrales]

Dennis,

I think it is safe to say that only about 10% of CAP officers below the grade of Major own them.  I can see making it as investment if I were a Wing Commander or maybe Group, but I'm just an ole country Squadron Commander.  Maybe if one comes up cheap...but I don't see a situation other than the Wing Banquet where it might be called for.

Embassy Dinners...eh?  I can image myself an ambassador, I'll breed 'em a fight before they knew what hit 'em!

[flyerthom]

Question:
How many people on this forum have mess dress uniforms?

I have one. Found it on E-bay while surfing for nothing. Took it to a tailor near Nellis AFB and got it all for less than$100.

[Major Carrales]

Nah...I think I'll delete what I posted here!!!  If you read it...consider yourself lucky.

[LtCol White]

I do

[bosshawk]

Nope: don't intend to get one, either.  Don't even own a service dress: don't intend to get one.  I spend enough on CAP every year to help service the national debt, so uniform purchases really don't get me excited.

[Chappie]

Like a couple of other posters...got my Mess Dress off of E-bay for $60.00.  The accessories cost extra (white shirt/cuff-links/bullion emblem....and the mini-medals).  But it would have been a lot more if the Mess Dress was purchased new on a base. 

I have gotten my $'s worth.  Since purchasing it I have worn it on a minimum of 3 occassions each year since 2002 (National Boards, National Staff College, Wing Conferences, Cadet Programs Conferences, and a couple of Squadron/Group Banquets).

[SarDragon]

Got one.  (Actually have two jackets right now because I just got a bigger size for my expanding waistline  ).

http://www.kieloch.net/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=52
You can spot my in my mess dress kit on the far left. 

(But I oddly don't own service dress)

That's a troublesome trio there, fella.

[Pylon]

That's a troublesome trio there, fella.

Tell me about it.   

[captrncap]

Anyone know of a good source for Mess Dress? I need it for a Military Ball in a week and a half. I tried my local AFB (which is 2 ½ hours away) and AAFES says it will take 6-8 weeks? Any suggestions?

[BillB]

eBay had several listed. BUT make sure it's the current style. And with that short a period until you need the Mess dress, you'll probably not be able to the the medals mounted and shoulderboards

[JohnKachenmeister]

Anyone know of a good source for Mess Dress? I need it for a Military Ball in a week and a half. I tried my local AFB (which is 2 ½ hours away) and AAFES says it will take 6-8 weeks? Any suggestions?

Even if you got it today, you probably could not get the shoulder boards and the sleeve braid switched out in time.

[captrncap]

I have the accessories. I got one on ebay but it didn't fit so that is why the short time frame.

[DNall]

And I assume it's beyond taking to a tailor to get altered? eBay is the quickest & cheapest source I know of. Generally these things take quite a while to put together. Can you not get by in service dress, or do you not have that either?

[Major Lord]

I made two attempts to buy Mess Dress on E-Bay, but because of the difficulty in sizing descriptions, ended up with two uniforms that would not fit ( Got them cheap, so I gave them away to brother Officer's)
I bought a nice new one at AAFEES and I love it. I have worn it at CAP speaking engagements and all kinds of CAP activities, including the yearly CPC banquet.  My main complaint about Mess Dress is that some members seem to think that the uniform is exempt from height,weight, and grooming requirements. My formula? Multiply your waist size by two. If the number is higher than your height in inches, you are probably a sausage and don't belong in a military style uniform.

[DNall]

I made two attempts to buy Mess Dress on E-Bay, but because of the difficulty in sizing descriptions, ended up with two uniforms that would not fit ( Got them cheap, so I gave them away to brother Officer's)
I bought a nice new one at AAFEES and I love it. I have worn it at CAP speaking engagements and all kinds of CAP activities, including the yearly CPC banquet.  My main complaint about Mess Dress is that some members seem to think that the uniform is exempt from height,weight, and grooming requirements. My formula? Multiply your waist size by two. If the number is higher than your height in inches, you are probably a sausage and don't belong in a military style uniform.

That's true. It's a pretty penny new though. I'd have to really want one for that.

[TankerT]

My formula? Multiply your waist size by two. If the number is higher than your height in inches, you are probably a sausage and don't belong in a military style uniform.

Wow.  That is quite the narrow minded, unscientific, arrogant attitude.

I am within CAP and Military (Army and Air Force... don't know/care about the others) weight requirements.  I wear the uniform properly, and well.  Yet, I wouldn't meet your standard.  (I'd be close, but still over.)

[Major Lord]

My Formula is not a hard rule, but a good rule of thumb. I think if you look up your height/weight standards, and apply my rule, you will generally find it a very fair estimate.  If you are arguing for the right to wear the uniform out of regulation, you are barking up the wrong tree. If you are stating that my rule is inaccurate, I just ask that you test it against the real world standards. There have been times when my own weight or hair length or beard growth made me ineligble to wear the uniform. I respected the people who have died while wearing the Air Force Uniform  and kept mine in the closet until I could meet the regs.

[ColonelJack]

And that, Captain Lord, is why I have the Corporate Service Dress uniform.

Jack

[Major Lord]

And God bless you for it sir!

[biZarre]

Anyone have a good conversion factor for the Mess Dress Jacket?  The size 46 that would normally be quite comfortable is awfully tight.  Should it be upsized a few steps?

[AlphaSigOU]

And that, Captain Lord, is why I have the Corporate Service Dress uniform.

Jack

Ditto. Last time I wore AF-style service dress was about 20 years ago - and that was the old style. Considering military sizes tend to run small, and I'm about 15 pounds above max weight for my height, at least I'm glad I can wear an alternate other than the grays.

[TankerT]

Anyone have a good conversion factor for the Mess Dress Jacket?  The size 46 that would normally be quite comfortable is awfully tight.  Should it be upsized a few steps?

The Mess Dress Jacket is going to be tight.  That's how they were designed.  If you want a bit looser, try a 48.

[TankerT]

My Formula is not a hard rule, but a good rule of thumb. I think if you look up your height/weight standards, and apply my rule, you will generally find it a very fair estimate.  If you are arguing for the right to wear the uniform out of regulation, you are barking up the wrong tree. If you are stating that my rule is inaccurate, I just ask that you test it against the real world standards. There have been times when my own weight or hair length or beard growth made me ineligble to wear the uniform. I respected the people who have died while wearing the Air Force Uniform  and kept mine in the closet until I could meet the regs.

So, I'm not respecting those whom have died for our country, because I don't meet your "rule"? 

I meet US Army Weight Standards

I meet US Air Force Weight Standards

I meet CAP Weight Standards (by far!)  (Off the top of my head, I think I can gain about 25-30lbs before I hit the CAP max weight for my height...)

The formula does not work for me.

I'm 65 inches tall.

When I went through Paratrooper training, and could score a 265 on the Army PT test (180 is passing... so I was in darn good shape.. not Super-Trooper shape... but good shape...) I wore size 33 pants.  )Thus, didn't meet your standard.

When I was the Distinguished Honor Graduate from the US Army NCO Academy PLDC program, I wore size 33 pants.  Thus, didn't meet your standard.  (Mind you my school report specifically noted my outstanding appearance in uniform.)

When I graduated with honors from the US Army NCO Academy BNCOC program, I wore a size 34 pants.  Thus, I didn't meet your standard then.  (Again, my school report specifically noted my outstanding appearance in uniform.)

When I was named my school's Army ROTC Cadet of the Year, my citation specifically mentioned my outstanding wear of the uniform.  (I wore a size 34 back then... and this was not JROTC...)

I was promoted TWICE (E-5 and E-6) on waivers. (Meaning, I was promoted early.)  Both recommendations for waivers noted my professional appearance in uniform at all times.

So, during my 7 year stint in the military, you're saying that I shouldn't have been able to wear a CAP uniform because I would dishonor those who have died for this country in the Air Force, because my waist was more than half the size of my height?  And, I still meet weight standards for the Active Component, and wear the uniform well and properly.  I still shouldn't wear it?

[Major Lord]

No, you are deliberately misconstruing my guidleline. My formula is to make a quick estimate on whether  you are borderline on the rule. If you are in regs, you should wear the uniform with pride. If not, don't wear it. You are on the far left side of the Bell Curve distribution for height, and no guidline estimate can be completely linear, but it sounds as if you are close. If you meet the CAP uniform regs, than I think you will find that my formula is very close. Nobody is is accusing you of being a commie here here. It sounds like you have body image issues...

[arajca]

A rule of thumb is a starting point which usually works for about 85% of the cases. Obviously, there will exceptions to any rule. Some are more serious than others.

In Haz Mat response, we use the "Rule of the Thumb." If you hold your arm out straight pointed at the spill with your hand in the "Fonzie" position and you can see the spill around your thumb, YOU'RE TOO CLOSE! Is it 100% accurate? No. But it's good enough for an initial safe distance - usually.

[DNall]

Anyone have a good conversion factor for the Mess Dress Jacket?  The size 46 that would normally be quite comfortable is awfully tight.  Should it be upsized a few steps?

The Mess Dress Jacket is going to be tight.  That's how they were designed.  If you want a bit looser, try a 48.

They are made tight. It's a tux, you aren't supposed to do PT in it. It's supposed to look slick & form fitting. If you're talking about trying on a used size & going by that, be careful though, cause they can be altered quite a bit at times. You have to get some stuff done on a brand new set, and it's just not that much more to get it super sweet.

[TankerT]

No, you are deliberately misconstruing my guidleline. My formula is to make a quick estimate on whether  you are borderline on the rule. If you are in regs, you should wear the uniform with pride. If not, don't wear it. You are on the far left side of the Bell Curve distribution for height, and no guidline estimate can be completely linear, but it sounds as if you are close. If you meet the CAP uniform regs, than I think you will find that my formula is very close. Nobody is is accusing you of being a commie here here. It sounds like you have body image issues...

No, I'm not deliberately misconstruing your guideline.  I'm pointing out how inaccurate it is. 

If you actually took a sample, 65 inches isn't even close to the far left side of the Bell Curve for distribution of height. You might be two standard deviations away from the mean, but I'd be really shocked if it was three.

FYI - I'm not even close to being over CAP weight standards.  (30lbs isn't close.)

I think you're insulting lots of people that look good in our uniform, and wear it properly.  Yes, there are lots of people that don't.  But calling a lot of those that do, and very well mind you, "sausages?"  That is just rude, unnecessary, and unprofessional. 

I don't see how someone at 65 inches, with a size 33 waist, at 15% body fat is a "sausage." 

Mind you, I was an NCO in an Armor unit.  Armor personnel are short.  Probably 80% of that unit, while in good shape, and nowhere near looking like a "sausage" didn't meet your rule of thumb.

What I have issues with isn't my body.  It's your pulling something out of your fourth point of contact and waiving it around insulting people.  Too many people in CAP make stuff up and try to be "experts" at the expense of others, when, they have no data to back it up.

Oh... and... I did weigh/taping for my unit as an NCO for four years.  So, I'm fairly certain when I say 80% of my unit failed your "rule of thumb"

[DNall]

At ease, the both of ya. Formula mentioned as barb to fat people. Should come with +/- disclaimer. Flawed as it sits. no offense intended. Calm down. Moving on!

[shorning]

A rule of thumb is a starting point which usually works for about 85% of the cases. Obviously, there will exceptions to any rule. Some are more serious than others.

In Haz Mat response, we use the "Rule of the Thumb." If you hold your arm out straight pointed at the spill with your hand in the "Fonzie" position and you can see the spill around your thumb, YOU'RE TOO CLOSE! Is it 100% accurate? No. But it's good enough for an initial safe distance - usually.

I tried applying that to my desk at work.  Too close.  So I tried it with the building I work in.  Again, too close.  I decided it would be best if I stayed home, since that would put an appropriate distance between me and the hazard.   My boss told me I still had to come to work.   

[Dragoon]

Back to the thread....I've got one (had to have all the uniforms, ya know).   It comes out no more than once a year, which makes it a GREAT motivator to maintain my weight!

[Pylon]

It comes out no more than once a year, which makes it a GREAT motivator to maintain my weight!

Yeah, I was miffed when I had to go out and get the next bigger jacket size recently.  But I knew I should just invest and get a bigger jacket and not wing it with the smaller size.  I didn't want to be that guy that somehow found a connecting button in the front with a 12" chain link (you know it's happened!) 

[MIKE]

I didn't want to be that guy that somehow found a connecting button in the front with a 12" chain link (you know it's happened!) 

How do you know what size chain to get?

[Pylon]

I didn't want to be that guy that somehow found a connecting button in the front with a 12" chain link (you know it's happened!) 

How do you know what size chain to get?

About 1/10"      There is no real chain to speak of.  Normally the connecting button(s) has a tiny chain on it.  It's short.  It's supposed to just barely bring the jacket together in the front with no overlap.

I've just seem some, uh... more creative people who figure they can widen their jacket by adding length between the two buttons.   Believe me, I've seen it. 

But to better answer your question "How do you know what size chain to get?"  -- However many inches by which your jacket it too tight. 

[MIKE]

I was curious because I had seen these for CGAUX Dinner Dress... which come in different sizes: