Black BDU's

[SII-117]

Am I the only one who thinks that if CAP wanted to be really distinctive, then the AF would let us wear black BDU'S?

[AlphaSigOU]

We already have blue BDUs - aka the CAP Distinctive Field Uniform - so why would we want to go to black BDUs?

[SARDOC]

Black has been pretty Common among Law Enforcement tactical teams...I don't think we should go there.  I thinnk we should stick to the blue...it's more commonly accepted in the Civilian Emergency Services community, it's worn by FEMA task forces, the US Coast Guard, Metropolitan Medical Response Teams...among many others.  But, the best part...we don't have to change anything...just wear the Blue one.

[SII-117]

If I had a choice between green and blue, it would be green. I think that blue is kind of smurfy.

[RVT]

If I had a choice between green and blue, it would be green. I think that blue is kind of smurfy.

Then you never saw the actual Smurf Suit!

http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=CAP_uniform_history#The_.22Smurf_Suit.2C.22_the_CAP_Utility_Uniform

[Eclipse]

MY EYES!   The googles do nothing!

(I still have this hanging in my closet for oil changes...)

[BradM]

Black has been pretty Common among Law Enforcement tactical teams...I don't think we should go there.  I thinnk we should stick to the blue...it's more commonly accepted in the Civilian Emergency Services community, it's worn by FEMA task forces, the US Coast Guard, Metropolitan Medical Response Teams...among many others.  But, the best part...we don't have to change anything...just wear the Blue one.

I agree with SARDOC. I have both the woodland BDUs and the Navy Blue BDUs. I wear the later when I have a beard. I dont see a need for black ones too.

[Major Lord]

As a paramilitary contractor, I wore black BDU's. Not only they are really hot, but they show the slightest amount of dirt.  I did like black for maritime operations in cold areas, but the uniform is just not so great for garrison wear. Of course, they do look cool.....I can't see any need form them in CAP, unless we are assembling an OPFOR or something!

Major Lord

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If I had my 'druthers, we'd have solid green BDU's.



It's distinctive (no-one in the US military wears solid green any more) and a nod to the old "pickle suit."

I'd also have an optional solid tan one for summer wear.



All would have dark blue grade and tapes, or better yet, just the aircrew-type leather nameplate, the way the USAF tried to do some years ago.  Think of the wear-and-tear that would save.

Failing that, though...I'd stick with the BBDU's rather than black.

[SARDOC]

As a paramilitary contractor, I wore black BDU's. Not only they are really hot, but they show the slightest amount of dirt.  I did like black for maritime operations in cold areas, but the uniform is just not so great for garrison wear. Of course, they do look cool.....I can't see any need form them in CAP, unless we are assembling an OPFOR or something!

Major Lord

Cool...OPFOR...sounds like a new path for Civil Air Patrol's Homeland Security Mission.  Sign me up!!!     

[SARDOC]

If I had my 'druthers, we'd have solid green BDU's.



It's distinctive (no-one in the US military wears solid green any more) and a nod to the old "pickle suit."

I'd also have an optional solid tan one for summer wear.



All would have dark blue grade and tapes, or better yet, just the aircrew-type leather nameplate, the way the USAF tried to do some years ago.  Think of the wear-and-tear that would save.

Failing that, though...I'd stick with the BBDU's rather than black.

I'd stay away from "seasonal" Uniforms...get's really complicated and expensive.  I say Pick one and Stick with it.  Having worn DCU's I would stay very far away from anything Tan Colored even though commonly worn by Disaster Medical Assistance Teams...they are VERY Prone to dirt that won't wash out.  The OD Green would be great if it didn't mean changing what we already have....I'll stick with the Blue.

[Eclipse]

I can't see a single reason to move from the blue, 1/3- 1/2 of the members already have it, its distinctive and looks sharp
what properly cared for.

Our best bet would be to put everyone in that uniform for field work, including cadets.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Oh, I'm quite happy with the BBDU's.  I wear mine quite a lot.  The green/tan ones were just if I had my 'druthers.

I do think going to just the aircrew leather nameplate is a good idea, though.

[Sapper168]

For the safety minded this could be the official field uniform....

[Eclipse]

Blaze orange or yellow makes more sense in the field than dark blue or camo, but with that said the vast majority of
members in BDU's never set foot in the field.

[a2capt]

LOL.. thats just great. You can hide and attack Linus while he's waiting for The Great Pumpkin to arrive.

Seriously, they make BDUs in that scheme? Wow. Hide in the Fall.

[jks19714]

For the safety minded this could be the official field uniform....

The local constabulary might confuse a flight line crew with a jailbreak! 

[cap235629]

For the safety minded this could be the official field uniform....

NOPE the new 62-1 specifies that all outerwear shall be ANSI compliant

[Eclipse]

NOPE the new 62-1 specifies that all outerwear shall be ANSI compliant

That is not what it says.

ANSI outerwear is approved over corporate uniforms only.

ANSI vests are the only thing approved for USAF-Style uniforms.

[cap235629]

Chill I was being facetious!!!!

And such a design WOULD be a corporate uniform!

[BradM]

For the safety minded this could be the official field uniform....

This is the proposed seasonal uniform for Autumn. 

[♠SARKID♠]

Ninja ground teams?  I'll get my nunchucks!

I think the black BDU's are already used by the black van operators.

[ol'fido]

I wear Black BDUs for work but I drive a white van. Actually, since I work for the state of IL it is two-tone..white and rust.

[Major Lord]

Hey, I did not see the "Queer eye for the straight guy" Army episode! I assume that's where that photo came from?

Major Lord

[SII-117]

Ninja ground teams?  I'll get my nunchucks!

I think the black BDU's are already used by the black van operators.

No ninjutsu references please.
As one, I find it extremely insulting.

[SarDragon]

Ninja ground teams?  I'll get my nunchucks!

I think the black BDU's are already used by the black van operators.

No ninjutsu references please.
As one, I find it extremely insulting.

Lighten up, Francis! 

[thatonekid]

Now, if you all really want a distinctive uniform you've gotta go for this:
Remember: real men (and women (gotta be polically corect guys )) wear pink.

[jks19714]

No, no, no.  The BDUs must be ANSI Compliant says Mr Safety Guy!




And the matching hat:


If the issue was open for discussion, the committee would no doubt stick the CAP logos all over them just to lock us into another Vanguard purchase...

[thatonekid]

I still vote for pink BDU's

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Am I the only one who thinks that if CAP wanted to be really distinctive, then the AF would let us wear black BDU'S?

We will never be "distinctive enough" for some in CAP until we drop all uniforms entirely except for the polo shirt.

Ever since (at least) the days of the "berry boards" and the institution of the bloody silly (not to mention unquantifiable) "low light/at-a-distance" requirement, CAP has been wringing its collective hands about "are we distinctive enough?"

I've seen black BDU's with CAP insignia...the guy told me they were very dark blue, but black is black.  It looked goofy.

[titanII]

For the safety minded this could be the official field uniform....

This is the proposed seasonal uniform for Autumn. 

It would probably only work for a month or two, and only in NER. I didn't recognize autumn colors at first. My first reaction was "what are they trying to hide in, fire?"

[LATORRECA]

Black BDU's let me guess... you are somewhat new to the CAP. I agree the CAP should have an alternate BDU's but not black. I'm old school I like the current uniform but like everything we have to evolve to the better. Blue BDU's well don't fit gap the current uniform will leave. As the AF move away from the BDU's is getting less and less accessible to all members.
   Cadets like the Current uniform because make them feel they are part of some sort of Military organization and represent a structure and respectable symbol to them, thanks to our service members. Just look at the cadets making their uniform square away!

[Abdomina]

It is kinda fun marching in a parade and all of the little kids go ''thank you for serving our country'' and in a way, we are because of the SAR stuff that we rarely do.

[ol'fido]

Our wing PAO called out some guy on FB the other day for posting that he was in CAP and his unit was getting "deployed" to somewhere. Anyway, the guys profile pic had him wearing Black ACU style uniform with his name tape over the left pocket, his CIVIL AIR PATROL tape over the right, and his wing patch on the right shoulder.

[Abdomina]

Dang poser

[jimmydeanno]

Our wing PAO called out some guy on FB the other day for posting that he was in CAP and his unit was getting "deployed" to somewhere. Anyway, the guys profile pic had him wearing Black ACU style uniform with his name tape over the left pocket, his CIVIL AIR PATROL tape over the right, and his wing patch on the right shoulder.

One benefit of having a nebulous 39-1. 

[Al Sayre]

Pickle Suits for everyone!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Pickle Suits for everyone!

Solid green BDU's.  A compromise between woodland camouflage and solid blue...and readily available, at least on-line.



No U.S. military service wears them, hence no confusion (except for those as dim as a five-watt bulb).  BBDU's are potentially confusable with USCG and some law enforcement, mostly to ten-watt bulbs.

However, I have a feeling the "corporatist/ES-only types" would cry foul for them looking "too military."

I am honestly surprised that the grey-only zealots haven't pushed for grey BDU's.



However, I have heard of wearing grey BDU trousers with the grey/whites...which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily.

[Spaceman3750]

Pickle Suits for everyone!

Solid green BDU's.  A compromise between woodland camouflage and solid blue...and readily available, at least on-line.

No U.S. military service wears them, hence no confusion (except for those as dim as a five-watt bulb).  BBDU's are potentially confusable with USCG and some law enforcement, mostly to ten-watt bulbs.

However, I have a feeling the "corporatist/ES-only types" would cry foul for them looking "too military."

I am honestly surprised that the grey-only zealots haven't pushed for grey BDU's.

However, I have heard of wearing grey BDU trousers with the grey/whites...which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily.

Nah, the coporatists are all about their red! FWIW, I would be strongly opposed to any color of BDU that Propper doesn't make... Also, border patrol wears all green, so all green wouldn't be a total solution for our friends in the south.

[jimmydeanno]

*sigh* Corporatist *sigh*

I want CAP to behave more like a corporation, but it has nothing to do with uniforms...

[GroundHawg]

I would love to switch back to OD's. Maybe even the TruSpec TRU in OD...

[RVT]

I am honestly surprised that the grey-only zealots haven't pushed for grey BDU's.



However, I have heard of wearing grey BDU trousers with the grey/whites...which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily.

I think you just hit on the answer, actually.  Aviator shirt, polo shirt and Grey BDU top all worn with the same pants.  Greatly simplifies the corporate uniformand  puts everybody in one shade of grey.

[SarDragon]

OK on the last two, but if the aviator shirt is the equivalent of the SS blue shirt AF uniform, then that combo needs dress trousers.

[RVT]

OK on the last two, but if the aviator shirt is the equivalent of the SS blue shirt AF uniform, then that combo needs dress trousers.

I agree with you, but it would at least prevent this:



This is a region staff college graduation picture.  If they can't agree on one shade of grey its not going to happen anywhere.  Unrelated not - I found it interesting that only about a half dozen members out of 40  in this picture are wearing AF blue.

[SarDragon]

The shade of grey is easy - define it to be the same color as the grade sleeves. You won't get a 100% match, but it would narrow the variation significantly.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The shade of grey is easy - define it to be the same color as the grade sleeves. You won't get a 100% match, but it would narrow the variation significantly.

Except that there are differing shades (I don't really consider grey to be a "colour" per se) of grade sleeves, depending on who made them, where they were purchased, and how old/clean/dirty the epaulet sleeves are, not to mention that different people have different colour perception.

The only way you're going to get what you're talking about is probably, and I hate to say this, to make Vanguard the exclusive vendor of grey trousers the way they are for almost everything else.

The G/W doesn't really have a dress-uniform function, unless you count the bloody awful "blazer" option, so until National approves a grey dress uniform blouse and cap (and pigs might fly outta my...), I don't see a problem with wearing grey BDU's...they're at least military-type cut.

Something like this could be adopted (the law-enforcement model), but I see the "corporatists" saying "too military" and NHQ saying "it'll offend the Air Force:"



Those are dark-grey with a light-grey stripe, before any anti-blue zealots start having a cow (thanks to Bart Simpson).

jimmydeanno, I respectfully posit that the more corporatist CAP has become, the further away from our USAAC/USAAF/USAF roots we've become, and further towards a "flying ES only" operation we have become.

RVT, I think the high percentage of G/W wearers in that photo are a result of several different factors:

• It's easy (no grooming/weight standards)
• It's relatively cheap
• No real "standard" other than a white shirt and grey pants, very little to potentially get gigged on
• No need to observe customs/courtesies (possibly one "reason" NHQ killed the CSU)

[arajca]

There are standard shades of grey fabric that can be adopted. Heather and charcoal grey are a couple of examples. I've gotten heather grey from a couple of different vendors and the only difference in color was the wear areas (one was new, one was worn out - hence the replacement).

[Spaceman3750]

I don't want to see the gray standardized. Why? Because it prevents me from purchasing pants that fit me comfortably (I'm not a small person - I can't throw on any old pair of pants and be comfortable) (gotta order everything through VG if we standardize) and I have to put up with whatever crap VG decides to sell us (which is sometimes good quality - but sometimes not too).

[SarDragon]

I get my grey trousers from Sears, and mail order through Haband. Each has a shade of grey that's "pretty close". The Haband sizes go into the "Omar" range.

Yes, there is variation in the grade sleeve color. That's just different dye lots. But there's still enough consistency that the differences don't stick out like the ten different colors of grey in the pic.

I see a lot of negativism on this issue - this won't work, that's a bad idea, etc. If we put as much energy into trying to make things work, instead of shooting things down, there might actually be some solutions out there.

[sab163]

What about something like this?

[RVT]

RVT, I think the high percentage of G/W wearers in that photo are a result of several different factors:

• It's easy (no grooming/weight standards)
• It's relatively cheap
• No real "standard" other than a white shirt and grey pants, very little to potentially get gigged on
• No need to observe customs/courtesies (possibly one "reason" NHQ killed the CSU)

And I am usually in grey /white for - well ALL of those reasons.  The grey/white is cheap I can show you where to get the shirt and pants both for less than a vanguard polo.  In fact now that I have found where to get the California GT uniform complete for about $33 I'm going to stop complaining about that too, except for the rules regarding changing into and out of the thing.

[RVT]

There are standard shades of grey fabric that can be adopted. Heather and charcoal grey are a couple of examples. I've gotten heather grey from a couple of different vendors and the only difference in color was the wear areas (one was new, one was worn out - hence the replacement).

I was looking for the shade scale in 39-1 to make a comment - and I noticed that the shades of grey are significantly different on the same page of the actual 39-1 so I'll give up now.

[SarDragon]

And which page is that, please?

[RVT]

And which page is that, please?

75

Look at the left two pictures.

[SarDragon]

And which page is that, please?

75

Look at the left two pictures.

Since one pic was taken inside, and the other outside, I will attribute most, if not all, of the difference to lighting variations. And what difference there might be is not significant, and could be attributable to dye lot differences.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And I am usually in grey /white for - well ALL of those reasons.

Point taken.

I wouldn't mind that order of dress if it weren't so colourless and non-aviation looking

If, for example a blue, civilian airline-pilot type shirt were allowed, imagine how much better it would look (insignia would stay as is).



But of course someone would pass a cinder block just because it's blue...

[RADIOMAN015]

I can't see a single reason to move from the blue, 1/3- 1/2 of the members already have it, its distinctive and looks sharp
what properly cared for.

Our best bet would be to put everyone in that uniform for field work, including cadets.

I agree with you on this one Eclipse .  The organization needs a single utility uniform that has us stand out as CIVIL AIR PATROL, not to be confused with others (including military and swat teams).  This includes patches such as the ES emergency Dog.  Also when we wear safety vests we should have our older seal (CAP circle triangle ) on it.  The seal should be sold separately so the member can sew it on their vests they by locally.

I'd say away from any light colored utility uniform due to the nature of "utility" meaning work and dirt.  I would also like to see an option for a utility blue TShirt with logo or CAP name (like the current golf shirt choices) with use with the current blue BDU pants (perhaps even allow the golf shirts with the Blue BDU pants).
RM   

[RVT]

(perhaps even allow the golf shirts with the Blue BDU pants).
RM   

I have actually suggested this.  It gives us an equivalent to the Coast Guard Ops Polo uniform - which is by far my personal favorite.

[kd8gua]

Granted this has nothing to do with Black BDUs, it does deal with the ever over reaching debate on gray pants. During my time in the OSU Marching Band, we had to maintain three different uniforms: the military-style uniform worn at parades, games, and concerts, a blazer uniform worn for pep rallies and travel, and a "grays" uniform, which is basically a variant of military PT style clothing in which we wore the visor style cap from the full uniform. The blazer uniform consisted of a black blazer with a band logo patch on it, white dress shirt, red marching band tie, and gray pants. Yes, gray pants. We were given one directive: heather gray dress pants. Lo and behold, in the 250 people wearing this uniform, maybe 10 or so really stick out as the wrong color. Most of the pants wound up being relatively close in color, granted the cut was, well... precarious. Since the only directive was dress pants, it mattered not the style. Straight legs, pleated fronts, flat fronts, even flared leg styles for females. They didn't look uniform, but the color, for what it's worth, was. This is much better odds than seeing 40 seniors in the image above wearing 40 different styles of gray.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^Some of the grey trousers in the photo are a very light grey, like West Point or "Confederate" grey, while others in the photo look almost black.