NCSA apathy

[rjfoxx]

My Wing has only had 3 applicants for NCSA's.  There has been ample publicity and reminders about the deadlines.  Yesterday when I ran some NCSA reports I noticed that no one has applied for Hawk Mountain!   Is anyone else seeing this "apathy" for lack of better word?  Could it be a function of the shaky economy?  Any comments / suggestions?

[Eclipse]

Expense.

Lack of good marketing.

Onerous boards and application procedures.

Failure to have NCSA participation as a day-1 expectation.

No real "program" at any level, just a lot of "activities".

MY new mantra:  CAP is an evolution, not a cafeteria.

[ol'fido]

One reason for this IMHO is the nebulous nature of the NCSA program at least from a senior/squadron commander side of the house. In my recent experience getting a grip on the thing is like grabbing at smoke and trying to hold on. WBW, we used to get the list of NCSAs in the CAP Times. This was easy to stick in your briefcase and brief it to the cadets at a squadron meeting. This allowed you to gage interest and get a jump start on the app process. You could then place this insert on a bulletin board as a constant reminder. You could also give the cadet the 31 and aid them with filling it out with everything but the parents permissions, insurance, doctors info,etc. You could review it before they send it off to correct any errors. You could also help them deal with things as the app procedure rolled along.

Now the apps are done online and the squadron commander only sees a very limited amount of the effort. This is mostly to give his rating and approval. Also, while some activities have remained pretty stable through the years(PJOC, NBB, IACE) others are a moving target. I realize that I am an  analog commander in a digital world but it seems that if we could somehow increase the input or participation that SQCCs and DCCs have in the app process,we might see an increase in participation.

[coudano]

"dude" jan 15th is a LONG ways away
especially in procrastination teenage time scales

Winter encampments don't even end until a week from now, that will be a few more hundred eligible that are not eligible today.


As for HMRS, it's not especially encouraged "around here".  Anyone who wants to go goes,
but it's not some sort of awe-gaping thing that you HAVE TO DO to have a fulfilled life or something

[cuselead]

Expense.>>>>>>>>>>>>>we are cheap compared to typical summer camps...check them out and compare what we offer to what they offer; especially our high profile events - like IACE, COS, AF Fam Course etc...

Lack of good marketing. >>>>>>>>We created our own website, www.ncasas.com, e-mail push has been made to membership etc..

Onerous boards and application procedures.>>>>>>>>>>> (those are local requirements - talk to your Wing DCP, NHQ has streamlined our process online, remember when it was paper driven? )

Failure to have NCSA participation as a day-1 expectation.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (What?)

No real "program" at any level, just a lot of "activities".>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Not true, take a look at the materials that are posted online - each one of our activities have an in-depth curriculum) 

MY new mantra:  CAP is an evolution, not a cafeteria.

[lordmonar]

If they are not going to NCSA's due to expense...they may not be going to band camp as well......or maybe they decided that band camp or BSA summer camp was money better spent then CE Familiarisation Course or Blue Beret.

Lack of good marketing.......you made a web site......this is the first I heard of it....like Eclipse said....lack of good marketing.

Onerous boards and application procedures......sorry but they are national process not local.

Failure to have NCSA participation as a day-1 expectation....that means in the Cadet Program we push getting their uniform, getting their testing and PT done, getting to encampment......all as part of the initial training to new cadets.....but going to NCSA is something you can do later....if you feel like it.

No Real "program" at any level.....means a most of the NCSA's do not really fit into the Cadet Program in and integral way.  Encampment is required for Mitchell, COS is required for Eaker......but everything else is just a stand alone activity that is not "part of the program".  So there is no drive for cadets to seek out and go to these activities.

[SABRE17]

I wonder if ES was part of the curriculum like PT and aerospace is, would more cadets attend NESA/hawk mtn?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I wonder if ES was part of the curriculum like PT and aerospace is, would more cadets attend NESA/hawk mtn?

Most likely not. I think if ES were a requirement most cadets would still stick with unit training. The current economy really hinders most people from attending Hawk Mtn. Now with NESA being held in most wings, I could see attendance going up. Plus with the stigma that most of the posts here on CT put on those who attend HM most cadets would think it a bad thing to attend HM. I do push HM, I tell cadets that it is some of the best training CAP has in ES, but they still don't want to do it. Mostly it is because they can't because of money but sometimes it is because some have read what is said about HM and what some of you think of it, that just ruins it for some.

[Bluelakes 13]

When I was a unit commander, ES was part of the curriculum.

All the reasons already given are pretty good.  Many NCSAs require encampment.  Most of our cadets do not go back to another encampment.  Their first "being away from home" experience probably has a lot to do about going to other such activities.

[Major Carrales]

I make this point every time someone mentions the money National gets from Vanguard to maintain these places.  Simply put, the average cadet can be expected to go to a Wing Encampment and a slew of local activities...but traveling across the nation for a program that seems so far out of sight and mind is a bit precarious.

The fact that little is offered South of the Mason-Dixon line or west and south of the the Northern Great Plains is problematic.  Offering a "Mountain Ranger School" to cadet who will never leave the prairies and deserts of South Texas is a disconnect.  Offer a more regional National Flight Academy program, or support the Texas one with funding from National instead of them having to beg for it from Corporations or raising the tuition to three years of saved wages for the average family who provide cadets in areas like mine.

Start looking for, giving or offering "full ride" scholarships based on a merit system or criterion based set up and you will see these activities be 1) well attended and 2) more meaningful.  Make them less than 2000-3000 mile treks and the same results will be scene. 

[cuselead]

Lack of good marketing.......you made a web site......this is the first I heard of it....like Eclipse said....lack of good marketing.
           The website has been pushed out at all levels, but glad that you now heard of it - help spread the word - I know lots of folks on this forum have talked about it - plus it's on capmembers.com our official website. 

Each year the number of cadets that don't get selected/slotted for NCSAs outnumber the slots available for all of the activities. So in reality marketing isn't the issue at all - as of tonight we have 769 unique members who have completed an application, what that means is those members have applied for at least 1 NCSAs, the reality is most members apply for more than 1 NCSAs. 

Onerous boards and application procedures......sorry but they are national process not local
           Please explain - it's the CAPF31 online! For the more involved programs like IACE the process is for sure more in-depth. 

The activities that we offer are in fact tied to the curriculum of the overall CAP program and are offered under the categories of AF Careers; Aviation Experiences/Training; Leadership; Technology/Business; and Operations Training.  I am confident that these activities are tied to the Cadet Programs Mission : "The Cadet Program transforms youth into dynamic Americans and  aerospace leaders. CAP accomplishes its Congressionally-mandated Cadet Program (Title 36, U.S.C. § 40302) through a curriculum of leadership,
aerospace, fitness, and character. The program follows a military model and emphasizes Air Force traditions and values. Today's cadets are tomorrow's aerospace leaders."

The activities are spread throughout the country - the amazing thing is there is an NCSAs in every region. 

Let us all remember that NCSAs are not requirements for cadet participation; they augment the cadet program and offer follow-on training and experiences to enhance the cadet program as a whole. 

[SABRE17]

I feel like NSCA's are more for the older more mature cadets who can handle being far away from home for a week or two, and that is somewhat ironic because there are probably fewer cadets over say 17 then under.

[lordmonar]

Lack of good marketing.......you made a web site......this is the first I heard of it....like Eclipse said....lack of good marketing.
           The website has been pushed out at all levels, but glad that you now heard of it - help spread the word - I know lots of folks on this forum have talked about it - plus it's on capmembers.com our official website.

Dead link.

Each year the number of cadets that don't get selected/slotted for NCSAs outnumber the slots available for all of the activities. So in reality marketing isn't the issue at all - as of tonight we have 769 unique members who have completed an application, what that means is those members have applied for at least 1 NCSAs, the reality is most members apply for more than 1 NCSAs. 

Not really true.  Every I have never seen a cadet turned away from an NCSA...they may not get their #1 choice....but I know of lots of cadets who are able to attend 2 or eve 3 NCSAs each year

Onerous boards and application procedures......sorry but they are national process not local
           Please explain - it's the CAPF31 online! For the more involved programs like IACE the process is for sure more in-depth.

Then the wing must board and give each cadet a go/no-go rateing.

The activities that we offer are in fact tied to the curriculum of the overall CAP program and are offered under the categories of AF Careers; Aviation Experiences/Training; Leadership; Technology/Business; and Operations Training.  I am confident that these activities are tied to the Cadet Programs Mission : "The Cadet Program transforms youth into dynamic Americans and  aerospace leaders. CAP accomplishes its Congressionally-mandated Cadet Program (Title 36, U.S.C. § 40302) through a curriculum of leadership,
aerospace, fitness, and character. The program follows a military model and emphasizes Air Force traditions and values. Today's cadets are tomorrow's aerospace leaders."

The activities are spread throughout the country - the amazing thing is there is an NCSAs in every region. 

Let us all remember that NCSAs are not requirements for cadet participation; they augment the cadet program and offer follow-on training and experiences to enhance the cadet program as a whole.

which goes back to what we said.....they are not tied directly into the CP.....ergo no major need to go to any of them.

[Eclipse]

It does work...http://www.ncsas.com/  but..

"We created a web page" is probably the number one on the "Why didn't anyone care?" hit parade.

[DC]

I make this point every time someone mentions the money National gets from Vanguard to maintain these places.  Simply put, the average cadet can be expected to go to a Wing Encampment and a slew of local activities...but traveling across the nation for a program that seems so far out of sight and mind is a bit precarious.

The fact that little is offered South of the Mason-Dixon line or west and south of the the Northern Great Plains is problematic.  Offering a "Mountain Ranger School" to cadet who will never leave the prairies and deserts of South Texas is a disconnect.  Offer a more regional National Flight Academy program, or support the Texas one with funding from National instead of them having to beg for it from Corporations or raising the tuition to three years of saved wages for the average family who provide cadets in areas like mine.

Start looking for, giving or offering "full ride" scholarships based on a merit system or criterion based set up and you will see these activities be 1) well attended and 2) more meaningful.  Make them less than 2000-3000 mile treks and the same results will be scene.

There are quite a few in the south, COS, both SUPTFCs, E-Tech, AFSPCFC-Florida, PJOC, APJOC and several NFAs come to mind. Two of those are held in Alabama, others can be found in Georgia, Virginia, Florida, Mississippi, New Mexico, Arizona, and even south Texas. I'd say that's a pretty fair distribution across the southern US.

I've been to two NCSAs and never traveled more than 600 miles, from central Florida. One of the activities I applied for this summer is within a couple hours driving distance for me, closer, in fact than my wing's encampment. I don't think it's fair to say that the average cadet must travel 2,000 to 3,000 miles to attend an activity they are interested in, there is a reasonably fair distribution across the nation, even accounting for the fact that most activities are locked into a certain location by the curriculum they provide. You can't do Blue Beret anywhere but Oshkosh, WI, the same principle applies to almost all NCSAs.

[Eclipse]

Per Region

GLR   5   14.71%
MER   4   11.76%
NCR   3   8.82%
NER   6   17.65%
PCR    3   8.82%
RMR   3   8.82%
SER    6   17.65%
SWR    4   11.76%
      
           34   100.00%

Per month:

Jan   0   0.00%
Feb   2   5.88%
Mar   0   0.00%
April   0   0.00%
May   0   0.00%
June   9   26.47%
July   20   58.82%
Augt   2   5.88%
Sept   0   0.00%
Oct   0   0.00%
Nov   0   0.00%
Dec   1   2.94%

   34   100.00%

So more than half the NCSA's occur during the month of July, with 19 of them during the same three-week period (21 if you count NESA, which for some reason isn't on the NCSA website).

GLR has 3 Aviation activities that compete with each other as well as NCC during the same time period.

NER has 2 NCSA's in PAWG that confict - Hawk & Glider.

Nationally, at least 13 aviation-related activities conflict with at least one other activity, sometimes in the same region, and the leadership and USAF ones aren't much better, and NESA conflicts with Blue Beret.

Now, overlay that calendar with wing-level activities which are usually more relevant to a cadet's immediate career and peers, and most cadets have to make a choice.

I have no answer for the July nightmare, but I would say that this is why we need to have calendar and resource deconfliction at the national level, and then at every level below national for the members being shared.  Yes, this is something that should be happening already, but clearly isn't.

We can't all just do whatever we want, whenever we want if we are sharing the same resource pool.

[coudano]

Then the wing must board and give each cadet a go/no-go rateing.

Well the wing must green light / red light each cadet
but they don't have to use a board to do it.

it's actually quite a bit *less* onerous than the previous version that required lists of stratifications

[Eclipse]

it's actually quite a bit *less* onerous than the previous version that required lists of stratifications

"Less" doesn't make it "not".  The fact that some of it is handled online and not all echelons are required
to board a cadet doesn't mean some aren't.

Some wings require in-face boards for everything with a long drive attached, so less motivated cadets aren't interested in
the hassle for something that has not been articulated as "important".

Some of our cadets are put out by anything more that 140 characters, others have nightmare schedules that don't allow them to
thing 6 weeks ahead, let alone 6 months.

[cuselead]

In some large wings they need an fair and open process to offer Green Lights / Red Lights so they choose to provide a life skills exercise by offering review boards, not required but I know some do - some just use the CAPF31 and offer a ranking system.  It's up the wing, and I'd suggest the size of the wing and distance in terms of travel time. - I've been a member of a few wings now and all have required a board and I've appreciated that - not only as a cadet but as a SM so I can offer what I can bring to an NCSA as a participant in my in-person self not my online self. 

Eclipse thanks for taking the time to provide the stats and breakdown of locations - I think that speaks to what I said in terms of location distribution of our optional activities that are offered across the country - To speak to the months offered a lot goes into the planning - for one June a great number of cadets on the west coast are still in session until the 2nd week of June - and on the flip side cadets go back to school in August so July ends up being a heavy month - not to mention facility space; Senior Member vacation time etc. etc. etc. I know that National takes the time to look at the schedule and tried to de-conflict but it's impossible to make a perfect schedule - you have to make a choice. 

NESA doesn't fall under the NCSA umbrella as it is executed from the OPS arena at NHQ

I am still shocked that we are talking about the marketing issue - as I am typing this there are 774 unique members completed applications - here is the breakdown with over 2 weeks to go with applications. 

Event   Members Applied
Advanced Air Force Pararescue Orientation - Davis Monthan AFB AZ   30
Advanced Air Force Pararescue Orientation Staff - Davis Monthan AFB AZ   5
Advanced Technology Academy Basic - Peterson AFB CO   86
Advanced Technology Academy Basic Staff - Peterson AFB CO   9
Air Force Civil Engineering Academy Familiarization - Tyndall AFB FL   50
Air Force Civil Engineering Academy Staff - Tyndall AFB, FL   2
Air Force Pararescue Orientation - Kirtland AFB NM   102
Air Force Pararescue Orientation Staff - Kirtland AFB NM   2
Air Force Space Command Familiarization - Patrick AFB FL   93
Air Force Space Command Familiarization - Peterson AFB CO   102
Air Force Space Command Familiarization Staff - Patrick AFB FL   14
Air Force Space Command Familiarization Staff - Peterson AFB CO   14
Aircraft Maintenance and Manufacturing Basic - Independence KS   38
Aircraft Maintenance and Manufacturing Basic Staff - Independence KS   3
Cadet Officer School Basic - Maxwell AFB AL   179
Cadet Officer School Basic Staff - Maxwell AFB AL   21
Cadet Officer School Falcon Flight Advanced - Maxwell AFB AL   5
Civic Leadership Academy Basic - Washington DC   70
Civic Leadership Academy Basic Staff - Washington DC   0
Engineering Technologies Academy Basic - Auburn University, Auburn AL   81
Engineering Technologies Academy Basic Staff - Auburn University, Auburn AL   4
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Basic Communications Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Cadet Advanced  Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Cadet Basic Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Cadet Special Advanced Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Cadet Staff Training Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Command & General Staff Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Field Medic Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Overhead Team Management Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Senior Member Basic Course - Kempton PA   0
Hawk Mountain Search And Rescue School Team Commanders Course - Kempton PA   0
Honor Guard Academy Staff - Westminster MD   10
Honor Guard Academy Year 1 Basic - Westminster MD   93
Honor Guard Academy Year 2 Course 2 - Westminster MD   29
Honor Guard Academy Year 3 Advanced - Westminster MD   11
International Air Cadet Exchange Basic - Worldwide   94
International Air Cadet Exchange Escort Basic - Worldwide   32
Johnson Flight Academy Balloon - Mattoon, IL   23
Johnson Flight Academy Glider - Mattoon, IL   27
Johnson Flight Academy Powered - Mattoon, IL   43
Johnson Flight Academy Staff - Mattoon, IL   9
MKS Aviation Business Academy Basic - McMinnville OR   35
MKS Aviation Business Academy Basic Staff - McMinnville OR   7
National Blue Beret Basic - Oshkosh WI   351
National Blue Beret Senior Staff - Oshkosh WI   56
National Cadet Competition Basic - McMinnville, OR   0
National Character & Leadership Symposium Familiarization - Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, CO   13
National Flight Academy - Great Lakes 1 Glider - Mattoon IL   39
National Flight Academy - Great Lakes 1 Glider Staff - Mattoon IL   3
National Flight Academy - Great Lakes 2 Powered - Oshkosh WI   47
National Flight Academy - Great Lakes 2 Powered Staff - Oshkosh WI   3
National Flight Academy - Middle East Powered - Ft Pickett VA   83
National Flight Academy - Middle East Powered Staff - Ft Pickett VA   12
National Flight Academy - North Central Powered - Camp Ashland NE   36
National Flight Academy - North Central Powered Staff - Camp Ashland NE   8
National Flight Academy - Northeast Powered - Camp Keyes, Augusta, ME   52
National Flight Academy - Northeast Basic Staff - Camp Keyes, Augusta, ME   20
National Flight Academy - Pacific Glider - Minden, NV   41
National Flight Academy - Pacific Glider Staff - Minden, NV   0
National Flight Academy - Rocky Mountain Glider - Colorado   0
National Flight Academy - Rocky Mountain Glider Staff - Colorado   0
National Flight Academy - Southeast Glider - Rome GA   65
National Flight Academy - Southeast Glider Staff - Rome GA   12
National Flight Academy - Southwest Powered - Shawnee OK   50
National Flight Academy - Southwest Powered Staff - Shawnee OK   15
Northeast Region Glider Academy Basic - Ft. Indiantown Gap, PA   25
Northeast Region Glider Academy  Course 1 - Springfield VT   17
Northeast Region Glider Academy Course 2 - Springfield, VT   8
Northeast Region Glider Academy Staff - Ft. Indiantown Gap, PA   2
Northeast Region Glider Academy Course 1 Staff - Springfield VT   3
Northeast Region Glider Academy Course 2 Staff - Springfield, VT   3
Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training Basic - Laughlin AFB TX   106
Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training Course - Columbus MS   58
Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training Basic Staff - Laughlin AFB TX   12
Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training Course  Staff - Columbus MS   20

Note NHQ doesn't track Hawk applications they just help facility the applications online - again it's not considered a full up NCSAs

Lastly, Life is all about choices; when I wanted to attend an event as a cadet I didn't go to the bank of mom I went and got a job or wrote to my local VFW, American Legions etc.. for Scholarships. 

[ES Ninja]

I would agree that a lot of the problem is lack of marketing - marketing the right way. In my experience as cadet staff, cadets don't get on the CAP website unless they have to. Many don't even know NCSAs exist until their squadron tells them. And of course, word of mouth is the best way to promote something. Once our squadron sent a cadet to NFA, that sparked interest, and five other cadets made attending NFA their goal (and to date, all five have applied, and one was accepted and soloed last year). Two of our cadets went to NBB, and two years later our squadron sent three cadets the same year, and this year several also applied. When cadets return from an activity wearing their NCSA patch, their beret, their solo wings, their silver shoulder cord, spinning their rifle, or showing pictures of a foreign country, other cadets get interested. "Oh, I want to have that beret / be able to spin a rifle / visit the CIA / solo in an airplane / go to another country" they think. Or, they may be one of those cadets who wants to be just like C/Capt Earhart someday, so whatever she does, they want to do too. Either way, the best way to market these activities is to send cadets, or bring in cadets from other squadrons who have attended an NCSA, to demonstrate just why its so awesome. Cadets won't make the effort to fill out the online form, go to wing headquarters to attend NCSA review boards, and save their money for months to pay for the activity, unless they've made it a goal. And they won't make it a goal unless they are shown why they should. Use the enthusiasm cadets have after completing an NCSA to encourage applications for next summer's activities.

[Eclipse]

Based on comments here and elsewhere, it sounds like NCSA participation is at or greater than year's past, just cadets and their
leaders waiting until the last minute to send in their apps.  I know that the flight academy that my wing runs which utilized the
NCSA app system (but is not yet an NCSA), was swamped with apps.

Anyone have any hard data to support or deny that conclusion?

[jimmydeanno]

I had 8 cadets in my unit alone that applied for NCSAs.  It takes some time for them to get through the initial application process, then through the bureaucracy of the in-between levels (boards, red light/green light, etc).  But, they're excited to do it.  A lot of cadets also wait for the dates, etc to get posted.  This year, a lot of that wasn't available on opening day.

[NCRblues]

Based on comments here and elsewhere, it sounds like NCSA participation is at or greater than year's past, just cadets and their
leaders waiting until the last minute to send in their apps.  I know that the flight academy that my wing runs which utilized the
NCSA app system (but is not yet an NCSA), was swamped with apps.

Anyone have any hard data to support or deny that conclusion?

Well, i don't have exact numbers for you, but the NBB list of cadets alone that applied (not slotted just applied) far and away out did last year, and the years past. I don't know why but it seems kids want to get away and do things on their own....