CAP senior member NCOs are not "Officers" but cadet officers are

[JohnKachenmeister]

The same was true of my Dad.  He qualified as a bombardier at 19, and was appointed a Flight Officer until he was 21.  He made 2LT just as the war was ending.  (That would have been 1945, for those who were absent that day from school.)

[lordmonar]

The interesting thing is that CAPR 35-5 does not provide for that situation. We can promote any person to the CAP NCO grade of Master Sergeant as long as they have something official (ID card, orders, etc.) that says they are a Master Sergeant or its equivalent. If their federal recognition is only that of a Technical Sergeant, how is anyone in CAP going to know the difference? So is that CAP Master Sergeant's "rank" federal? It doesn't matter. CAP doesn't go off that. In order for "federal rank" to matter in the CAP, some of the laws that govern our relationship with the military need to be changed.

I don't think you understand the CAP NCO ranks.  What ever the rank you had when you retired...that is the NCO rank you have in CAP.  You cannot promote an active duty TSgt to CAP MSgt.

[DNall]

For the love of God. I guess I can argue semantics for just a second.

The word commissioned, has no magical meaning. Any organization can commission you to whatever the hell grade they want. If they wanted to send you a certificate when you promote to 2Lt signed personally by THE President of the United States with exactly the same wording as an AF officer commission except that it said "XYZ is commissioned Second Lieutenant, Civil Air Patrol," that would have ZERO legal force. It would NOT give you power over military personnel. That authority is spelled out in 10USC. Calling people commissioned or actually following the formality of issuing them a commission doesn't change anything whatsoever in any way shape or form. It just makes people feel warm & fuzzy. The word merely means you've been empowered by the signed to hold & execute the powers of the office to which you've been appointed. Remind me again, what are the legal powers of a CAP officer? Cause last time I looked over 10USC I don't remember seeing any.

Far as NCOs, obviously they can promote as they promote within the military. Otherwise you're talking about creating a new (going back to an old) system, which I can see some strong points for doing, but that's another conversation.

AGE: there is no provision CURRENTLY to restrict commissioning of a military officer all the way down to 17. The min age to enter Army OCS is 19 & it's three months long. I'll provide the link again if you want it, but it's easy to find. Now in reality, I can't see any but the rarest of circumstances where a review board would accept anyone under 21 to OCS. The closest I can think of is Warrant Officer Flight Trainign, where they do accept 18yo HS grads who are then promoted to CWO2 w/a commission & swear an oath of command prior to 21.

[DeputyDog]

The interesting thing is that CAPR 35-5 does not provide for that situation. We can promote any person to the CAP NCO grade of Master Sergeant as long as they have something official (ID card, orders, etc.) that says they are a Master Sergeant or its equivalent. If their federal recognition is only that of a Technical Sergeant, how is anyone in CAP going to know the difference? So is that CAP Master Sergeant's "rank" federal? It doesn't matter. CAP doesn't go off that. In order for "federal rank" to matter in the CAP, some of the laws that govern our relationship with the military need to be changed.

I don't think you understand the CAP NCO ranks. What ever the rank you had when you retired...that is the NCO rank you have in CAP.  You cannot promote an active duty TSgt to CAP MSgt.

I do understand the CAP NCO ranks. You missed what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about promoting an active duty Technical Sergeant to a CAP Master Sergeant. I was trying to show that the term "federal rank" doesn't mean anything in relation to the CAP grades.

My example was using an Air National Guard Technical Sergeant (not an active duty Air Force Technical Sergeant) who was promoted to Master Sergeant by his or her state.

[DeputyDog]

For the love of God. I guess I can argue semantics for just a second.

The word commissioned, has no magical meaning.

But it has a legal meaning. If you will notice, CAPR 35-5 uses the term "appointed or appointment" rather than commissioned or commission when talking about the grades of second lieutenant through major general. Think that implies something?

Calling people commissioned or actually following the formality of issuing them a commission doesn't change anything whatsoever in any way shape or form. It just makes people feel warm & fuzzy.

But should you call someone "commissioned" when they are not?

The word merely means you've been empowered by the signed to hold & execute the powers of the office to which you've been appointed.

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

[lordmonar]

For the love of God. I guess I can argue semantics for just a second.

The word commissioned, has no magical meaning.

But it has a legal meaning. If you will notice, CAPR 35-5 uses the term "appointed or appointment" rather than commissioned or commission when talking about the grades of second lieutenant through major general. Think that implies something?

Calling people commissioned or actually following the formality of issuing them a commission doesn't change anything whatsoever in any way shape or form. It just makes people feel warm & fuzzy.

But should you call someone "commissioned" when they are not?

The word merely means you've been empowered by the signed to hold & execute the powers of the office to which you've been appointed.

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

I think what the problem here is....some people think that the federal government has a monopoly on the word "commission".

Sorry...that is not so.  A state ANG officer my have a federal commission or just a state commission.  State Police officers are sometimes commissioned.  Lawyers are often commissioned.  Real estate agents are commissioned.

Commission

NOUN:
1.
- The act of granting certain powers or the authority to carry out a particular task or duty.
- The authority so granted.
- The matter or task so authorized: Investigation of fraud was their commission.
- A document conferring such authorization.

2.
- A group of people officially authorized to perform certain duties or functions: The Federal Trade Commission investigates false advertising.
- often Commission A ruling council within the Mafia that adjudicates family disputes and regulates family activities.
- The act of committing or perpetrating: the commission of a crime.
- A fee or percentage allowed to a sales representative or an agent for services rendered.

3.
- An official document issued by a government, conferring on the recipient the rank of a commissioned officer in the armed forces.
- The rank and powers so conferred.

A commissioned officer of the United States Military has a different commission than a commissioned officer in the Arkansas National Guard.  Just as a commissioned officer in the North Pulaski Volunteer Fire Department or even the Civil Air Patrol is different.  A commission in one does not impart authority in anything else.

Ergo...it makes not difference to argue about semantics in this case.  What needs to be argued is the source of the commission and what powers that commission imparts.

[DNall]

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

That's a narrow definition, but fine I'll use it. A formal written warrant appointing you to the office of "2Lt, CAP" & empowering you with all rights and priveldges of the same. See how that does not make you a military officer with any power over anyone. The meaning here is the legal authority of the office you're being appointed to, not the word commission or appoint. A military officer's comission doesn't by itself mean anything either, only when paired with legal authorities assigned in title 10 to the office does it have any legal meaning. If the national commander, Secretary of the AF, President of the US, or whomever else you wish were to sign a document in every way identacle to a military commission but with the words US Air Force replaced by Civil Air Patrol, it would have no legal meaning whatsoever, because it is not in fact a military commission regardless of how exactly the same it looks.

The terms commission & appoint in this case are actually rather interchangable. When a doctor joins the Air Force, they are directly appointed to the grade of captain, that doesn't mean they don't have a commission like every other officer, they do. In fact they are commissioned as an officer & appointed to an office.

You can start a club in your basement & elect a President, but that doesn't make them the President of the US just cause they were elected to an office called "President."

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

Just going by the website:
"To attend Officer Candidate School, you must be a U.S. Citizen and a college graduate, at least 19 years old and not have passed your 29th birthday at the time of selection (age waivers may be considered)."
http://www.goarmy.com/ocs/applications_eligibility.jsp

[DNall]

Ergo...it makes not difference to argue about semantics in this case.  What needs to be argued is the source of the commission and what powers that commission imparts.

Off topic a bit, but the previous seemed pretty done. I'm thinking issued by the Nat CC, and worded similiarly, not the exact same, but similiar to an AF comission. Legally all it's "commissioning" you to do is wer the grade stated on the document. Actually, I don't know if I'd even specifiy grade in it, cause I don't want the expense of making new ones when people get promoted. Just one that authorizes you to serve as a a duly appointed officer in CAP. A little pomp & circumstance really can make people take their roles more seriously if done right. I know a lot of people that earn 2Lt or Observer wings, and anti-climatic nature of it is a real turn off.

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall:

In the RealMilitary, you are commissioned to your initial rank, in my case, second lieutenant.  After that you are promoted on orders, and no new commission certificate is awarded.

The National Guard, however, dual-commissions officers.  The Governor commissions you, and then you are commissioned by a Federal Recognition Board.  When I was in the Guard, I got a new commission certificate from the Governor every time I was promoted.  I still have only my original commission to second lieutenant from the President.

So I guess you can do it either way.

I agree that ceremony and official-looking certificates are important.  I use the analogy of a marriage.  A couple can live together, have sex, kids, bills, joint property, and all that, but...

There is just something about making a solemn committment to each other in the presence of God and all your friends and family that makes marriage something more than the sum of all of the above.

That's WHY we should have a ceremony to "Commission" our officers, even if the commission has very little legal meaning.  For a volunteer to stand up before his family and friends and pledge his service to the United States, and then be awarded a badge of rank as an officer and gentleman would establish an emotional bond to the organization that just MIGHT reduce our attrition.

[davedove]

That's WHY we should have a ceremony to "Commission" our officers, even if the commission has very little legal meaning.  For a volunteer to stand up before his family and friends and pledge his service to the United States, and then be awarded a badge of rank as an officer and gentleman would establish an emotional bond to the organization that just MIGHT reduce our attrition.

I personally think some sort of ceremony, even an informal one, should be done for all grade advances, as well as any awards givien.  Many will probably say they don't want to go through the hassle, or that it doesn't really mean anything, but there is a certain pride in being recognized for an accomplishment in front of your peers.

[mikeylikey]

Actually, it doesn't:
a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties, or a certificate conferring military rank and authority (quoted from a dictionary).

Sounds like alot more than "feeling warm and fuzzy" to me.

That's a narrow definition, but fine I'll use it. A formal written warrant appointing you to the office of "2Lt, CAP" & empowering you with all rights and privileges of the same. See how that does not make you a military officer with any power over anyone. The meaning here is the legal authority of the office you're being appointed to, not the word commission or appoint. A military officer's commission doesn't by itself mean anything either, only when paired with legal authorities assigned in title 10 to the office does it have any legal meaning. If the national commander, Secretary of the AF, President of the US, or whomever else you wish were to sign a document in every way identical to a military commission but with the words US Air Force replaced by Civil Air Patrol, it would have no legal meaning whatsoever, because it is not in fact a military commission regardless of how exactly the same it looks.

The terms commission & appoint in this case are actually rather interchangeable. When a doctor joins the Air Force, they are directly appointed to the grade of captain, that doesn't mean they don't have a commission like every other officer, they do. In fact they are commissioned as an officer & appointed to an office.

You can start a club in your basement & elect a President, but that doesn't make them the President of the US just cause they were elected to an office called "President."

AGE: The min age to enter Army OCS is 19...

A quick review of this regulation: https://www.infantry.army.mil/ocs/content/AR350-51.pdf will show the minimum age is 18.

Just going by the website:
"To attend Officer Candidate School, you must be a U.S. Citizen and a college graduate, at least 19 years old and not have passed your 29th birthday at the time of selection (age waivers may be considered)."
http://www.goarmy.com/ocs/applications_eligibility.jsp

NO!  Appoint and Commission are NOT interchangeable!  Military Officers are APPOINTED to an office in the US Government.  They then are known as a "Commissioned Officer" because it is a historical throwback.  The Appointment of an officer is what is legal, because they execute an Appointment Oath or Oath of Office.  They are then presented with a Commission.

The Commission they receive is strictly for show.  At one time in our history the Commission was the main source of authority as officers were required to carry it with them at all times to prove who they were.  To get off track alittle, there are many stories of entire battles during the Civil War being held up because the Colonels of different regiments would get together and pull out their commissions to decide whose was oldest or to elimate State Officers who carried commissions from the Governor and not the President.  They would then follow the orders of the presidentially commissioned officer with the oldest commission. 

Anyway, our current system appoints qualified individuals to government office.  They then take on the title of being "commissioned".

[DNall]

NO!  Appoint and Commission are NOT interchangeable!  Military Officers are APPOINTED to an office in the US Government.  They then are known as a "Commissioned Officer" because it is a historical throwback.  The Appointment of an officer is what is legal, because they execute an Appointment Oath or Oath of Office.  They are then presented with a Commission.

The Commission they receive is strictly for show.  At one time in our history the Commission was the main source of authority as officers were required to carry it with them at all times to prove who they were.  To get off track alittle, there are many stories of entire battles during the Civil War being held up because the Colonels of different regiments would get together and pull out their commissions to decide whose was oldest or to elimate State Officers who carried commissions from the Governor and not the President.  They would then follow the orders of the presidentially commissioned officer with the oldest commission. 

Anyway, our current system appoints qualified individuals to government office.  They then take on the title of being "commissioned".

You know I have a degree in military history right, & a minor almost a second major in poly-sci focused on constitutional law.

That's correct though, they are appointed to an office (hired), then commissioned (authorized) to begin serving in that capacity. The word commission is a broad term that JUST means you've been given a task & authorized powers to cmplete it - that's it & nothing more. The highly specific incidence of a military commission document is ONLY a formal document assigning you to a particular grade (office) and granting you the powers & priveldges that go with it. Those are defined seperately in Title 10 (where authority for the UCMJ sits among other things). Just because you have a certificate commissioning you as a CAP officer does not give you UCMJ authority.

It's just a certificate formally granting a person the powers that accompamy the office. There are not many powers to CAP officership. Such a certificate would have zero legal meaning if signed by the POTUS, so obviously there's even less issue if signed by the Nat CC. The term appointment is used correctly in the reg, that does not preclude or negate the issue of a commission or refering to members as commissioned officers.

[JohnKachenmeister]

"...This officer is to obey the orders, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States, and the officers appointed over him, according to law and regulation.  And I do strictly charge those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to give such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position."

This is the source of an officer's authority, a written order from the President directing that he carry out the President's orders and requiring others to obey him.

A "Warrant Officer" has identical wording on his warrant, but the warrant is issued by the Secretary of the service.

[mikeylikey]

In my experiance, I received my commission over 6 years ago, I received a memo from my Commander notifying my that "I am to be directed that the President has appointed me an officer", and that I needed to sign a DA form 71 "Oath of Office", and take my Oath.  At the ceremony I was presented a Commissioning certificate.  My Authority over enlisted personell is strictly derived from the laws of the United States.  Not the piece of paper hanging on my wall.

Oh and DNaLL.....I am so happy you have degree in military histroy, and a minor in Ploy Sci.  That is similar to what a lot of slackers in ROTC do these days  to "breeze" through college.  Not saying you are a slacker, but I hav met my fair share who share tht major and have trouble geting jobs after graduation.  My big question though, was that comment about your education trying to impress someone?  I am sure there are alot more impressive people on this forum.  To beat you too it, I will say that I am not the smartest or most educated person either.  However, as I have gone through the "Commissioning" process I may know what I am talking about.     

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall isn't a slacker.  I am.  My degree is in Criminal Justice.  I took a lot of Sociology and Psychology pseudo-sciences because there are no right or wrong answers there.

[lordmonar]

In my experience, I received my commission over 6 years ago, I received a memo from my Commander notifying my that "I am to be directed that the President has appointed me an officer", and that I needed to sign a DA form 71 "Oath of Office", and take my Oath.  At the ceremony I was presented a Commissioning certificate.  My Authority over enlisted personnel is strictly derived from the laws of the United States.  Not the piece of paper hanging on my wall.

If you look at the laws of the United States....you will find that you need the paper on the wall before you have any authority over anyone in the military.

Go look it up....all those laws talk about "commissioned officers" or "non commissioned officers" or "warrant officers".   In legal teams that piece of paper is very important.

However, as I have gone through the "Commissioning" process I may know what I am talking about.     

I've been through surgery too....does not make me a doctor!   

[Major_Chuck]

I was ordained a minister by providing an email address to them on-line. Does that make me a qualified to be a minister?  Food for thought when we get into the semantics of "appointed",  "warrant"; "commissioned", etc.

[DNall]

Oh and DNaLL.....I am so happy you have degree in military histroy, and a minor in Ploy Sci.  That is similar to what a lot of slackers in ROTC do these days  to "breeze" through college.  Not saying you are a slacker, but I hav met my fair share who share tht major and have trouble geting jobs after graduation.  My big question though, was that comment about your education trying to impress someone?  I am sure there are alot more impressive people on this forum.  To beat you too it, I will say that I am not the smartest or most educated person either.  However, as I have gone through the "Commissioning" process I may know what I am talking about. 

Let me think, is that the one I sent in the cracker jack box tops for, or the one with the freakin year long thesis that I'm pretty sure took years off my life... I'm not sure if I recall off hand. 

I don't know what your degree is in - lets say it's meteorology. If I were to lecture you about how storm patterns develop, I'd expect your reply to say, 'you know I have a degree in which I spent some time with experts studying this subject." Cause see that would tell me this guy already understands this aspect of the conversation very well & I don't need to go into any more detail. I wouldn't expect you to be offended, cause I didn't know that about you, but I would expect you to save me the trouble of preaching to the choir.

Now if you'd like to discuss the history of it, what I thnk you'll find is the documents were practical because you couldn't verify the information in a central database, and would regularly execute your office outside your chain of command in far away places out of contact with a higher HQ where you alone made the foreign policy of the US on your own judgement & were rewarded or punished depending on how it turned out. I think you'll also find that military commisisons are not particularly special documents. It is merely a formal letter from the govt saying you are appointed to an office & have their permission to use certain powers specified in law to execute it. Commercial shipping companies would (and do today) issue the same sort of document to their ships officers. Private individuals would issue such documents similiar to a power of attorney. Historically speaking, it is just a piece of paper that verifies you're appointed to the office & have been empowered with the authority that comes with it.

Legally AND historically, such a document is no more or less meaningful in CAP than your membership card. In fact it would mean EXACTLY the same thing.

[mikeylikey]

I've been through surgery too....does not make me a doctor!   

If you were the one performing the surgery I sure hope you are a doctor. 

I get what your saying but my point that I tried to get across was that as an Officer I was appointed as an Officer by the President and my Oath of Office was my legal acceptance of that appointment.  My Commission Certificate that hangs on my wall merely states the appointment.  Even though the document says others of lesser rank must obey me, the true laws regulating obedience are found in regulations and the USC, as are all the other things relating to Officers in the Uniformed Services.  The execution of the Oath of Office is the only legal binding and power deriving device that makes a private citizen an Officer.  In the past it may have been that the Commission Certificate itself was the source of power.  Today it is our laws on record and the appointment to US Government Office. 

Commissioned, Non-Commissioned and Warrant are merely generalized titles. 

I am a Commissioned Officer by virtue of being appointed to an Office in the US Government by the President.  I hold appointment at his (or her) pleasure and lawfully execute my duties in accordance with regulations and the laws of the United States.  Others of lesser rank obey my orders because I have been appointed over them. 

I may be way off here, but I will agree now that this is an area where there could be many different views.  This is my view and has been for many years.  Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, but I believe strongly in this line of reasoning. 

Thank you and good night       

[DNall]

That's fine, it doesn't really matter that much. The fact is you can write the same language on a certificate & print it up for CAP members promoting to 2Lt, have it signed by the nat CC, have them swear the standard oath (not sign the same documents - which are by the way the formal acceptance), and have it presented by whomever locally (including govt official if avail).

You can even do this in conjunction with the changes to the officer process I've talked about in PD, which involve an AF rep (state director or their appointee) in the selection & approval process.

There's just nothing whatsoever you can do that makes any of this mean the person is an officer in the armed services of the US, because CAP is ultimately not the real AF. Therefore, all this is allowed & for show, and very meaningful show which can help retention & member quality. Charge a couple extra bucks on new member dues, write a paragraph in regs about how the ceremony should be conducted, done deal. Any objections?