Chaplain Limitations?

[Chappie]

Alrighty then, next question:

Does the CAP/VC count as a restricted position? I recall that one of the candidates was a chaplain, and remember thinking "isn't that a command position?".

National Vice Commander, to me, is the same as Deputy Commander.  One would assume (yeah we know what happens), that the
#2 job is prohibited at every echelon.

He could have been clergy without being a CAP Chaplain - I don't recall - or he could simply have resigned from the Chaplain corps after election and before being sworn.

Col Jay Hughes did serve as a CAP Chaplain for several years.  He took off the cross voluntarily and in compliance with the regulations in order that he could serve as the GAWG Commander.  He made a personal decision/choice to serve as a commander rather than being on command staff..

[Chappie]

A chunk of the TCO prohibition is that Chaplains are the "go to" people with ethical issues that you might have.  So, if you have an ethical complaint about a CC or TCO, either of which can really mess with advancement, and that person is a Chaplain...where do you go?

Spot on.

[Chappie]

This leads me to a question...


Imagine a CAP member who happens to have the required ordination, etc.

He becomes a CAP Chaplain.

Can he (at will) take off his Chaplain hat and be a 'regular' CAP member?

If I chose to --- I could contact my endorser and request that they withdrawn my ecclesiastical endorsement.  I would then contact the Chief of Chaplains and inform him of what I had done.  My CAP Chaplain appointment would then be withdrawn.   The appointment as a CAP Chaplain is based on the educational requirements and ecclesiastical endorsement.  No endorsement/no appointment.

I am still a member in good standing with CAP....all my levels of training are still in effect.  Since I have a general ES rating and trainee status as comm and mission staff support...I could focus on those ES ratings or maybe some other one that I have time for or interest in.  Since I have a Master rating in Professional Development and Cadet Programs, I could seek out assignments in those areas.  Maybe even take the UCC and become a Deputy Commander with an eye to someday serve as a Commander.   I could choose to do that...but you are stuck with me as a Chaplain 

[Eclipse]

A chunk of the TCO prohibition is that Chaplains are the "go to" people with ethical issues that you might have.  So, if you have an ethical complaint about a CC or TCO, either of which can really mess with advancement, and that person is a Chaplain...where do you go?

An IG or the next echelon, which as a "next echelon CC" is where I would want them going anyway.

If I chose to --- I could contact my endorser and request that they withdrawn my ecclesiastical endorsement.

Why have the endorsement yanked?  Just ask to be removed from Chaplain status.

[JeffDG]

A chunk of the TCO prohibition is that Chaplains are the "go to" people with ethical issues that you might have.  So, if you have an ethical complaint about a CC or TCO, either of which can really mess with advancement, and that person is a Chaplain...where do you go?

An IG or the next echelon, which as a "next echelon CC" is where I would want them going anyway.

With all due respect to IGs...if I have a issue with Waste, Fraud or Abuse, that's where I'm going.  If I have an ethical question, I'm not going to an accountant.

Chaplains (and for that matter IGs) are specifically carved out of the chain of command and given both special privileges and limitations for a reason.

[Hawk200]

If I chose to --- I could contact my endorser and request that they withdrawn my ecclesiastical endorsement.

Why have the endorsement yanked?  Just ask to be removed from Chaplain status.

I'm wondering the same thing. Seems like having an endorsement removed might be a negative, even voluntarily.

[ZigZag911]

The chaplain can simply resign from CAP Chaplain Service.

[rmcmanus]

Since the Chaplain's Shortage was mentioned earlier, I'd like to read opinions on possibly offering two levels of Chaplains:  a) those who possess the Master of Divinity Degree and Ecclesiastical Endorsement required for full USAF certification and authorization to augment its Chaplains Service; and b) those with years of documentable Pastoral experience, (many of whom can also acquire Ecclesiastical Endorsement) but who hold only a baccalaureate degree.  Allow the "level b" Chaplains to perform tasks under the direction of the Wing to which they are assigned and authorize the wear of the silver chaplains cross instead of the AF blue to distinguish between the two levels. 

I realize that the National Chief of Chaplains opposes any diminishment of the stringent qualification requirements because we are truly fortunate that our chaplains are generally accorded the same respect and authority of those in the AF but the shortage adversely affects CAP  groups and squadrons across the nation.  I have attended Wing Conferences during which a layperson was called upon to render the invocation and closing prayers because no chaplain was present.  That is often the case at many other official activities during which a chaplain would be the more appropriate individual to perform a religion-related function, especially when the public is invited (such as Veteran's Day; Pearl Harbour observances; and Memorial Day services). 

Now, before any long knives come out, this communication is forwarded merely to hear opinions and neither criticize or demand anything.

[Hawk200]

The endorsement and academic requirements are pretty much identical to the military. It's using a standard.

I don't like the idea of creating chaplain "levels." It should simply be a chaplain is a chaplain is a chaplain.

There's already a program in place for those without the more advanced academia, it's called Character Development Instructor (formerly know as Moral Leadership Officers). If you want a "chaplain lite", it's pretty much right there.

No reason to rename it to "B level" and create a new insignia.

[Chaplaindon]

Since the Chaplain's Shortage was mentioned earlier, I'd like to read opinions on possibly offering two levels of Chaplains:  a) those who possess the Master of Divinity Degree and Ecclesiastical Endorsement required for full USAF certification and authorization to augment its Chaplains Service; and b) those with years of documentable Pastoral experience, (many of whom can also acquire Ecclesiastical Endorsement) but who hold only a baccalaureate degree. 

I respond as a retired CAP Chaplain who may/may not have been keeping up with changes in the organization. As of the date of my retirement, almost 2 years ago, there were 2 levels of chaplains.

One mirrored the USAF and required an MDiv degree and the other required years of pastoral experience atop a bachelor's degree. There was no distinction in uniform or insignia.

Has this rule changed?

[Hawk200]

One mirrored the USAF and required an MDiv degree and the other required years of pastoral experience atop a bachelor's degree. There was no distinction in uniform or insignia.

Based on CAPR 265-1, there aren't really "levels" of chaplains. You're either a chaplain, or you're not. There's a couple ways to it according to the reg, but regardless of how it's done, a chaplain's a chaplain. I've only been scanning the reg, but I don't see any restrictions based on how an individual arrives at the appointment.

Personnel who don't meet the minimum requirements for chaplain can be Character Development Instructors.

rmcmanus: based on what you have as a "level b", a person may qualify as a chaplain, however, they would not be eligible to provide military support.

From 265-1, p 4, Para 6.c.(3) : "The Chief of the Chaplain Corps (CAP/HC) may grant a waiver to those who do not meet the graduate study requirement providing they meet all other requirements and present valid documentation of at least 5 years of full time ministry experience as a pastor within their denomination. Chaplains who receive a waiver are not eligible to provide assistance to the military."

I misunderstood what you were suggesting on my initial read. A chaplain appointed under the above specification would still be a CAP chaplain, and wear the same insignia that a chaplain qualified under the DoD Instruction 1304.28 requirements would wear.

[Chappie]

In regards to RMCMANUS' suggestion and Chaplaindon's question, there has been no change in the appointment of the CAP Chaplain per the CAPR 265-1.

6. Chaplain Appointment.
a. Senior Membership. As a prerequisite to appointment as a chaplain, an applicant must meet all requirements for senior membership (see CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership).
b. Ecclesiastical Endorsement. Chaplains will receive an ecclesiastical endorsement from a faith group listed by the Armed Forces Chaplains Board (AFCB) prior to appointment as a chaplain. Endorsements are valid until withdrawn or asked to be renewed by the individual endorser. Chaplains who change denominational affiliation must obtain a new endorsement. If a new endorsement or renewal is not obtained within 90 days, their chaplain status will be withdrawn. The endorsement shall certify that the applicant is:
(1) A fully ordained or qualified priest, rabbi, or minister of religion
(2) Actively engaged in or retired from a denominationally approved vocation.
(3) Recommended as being spiritually, morally, intellectually, and emotionally qualified to represent the applicant's religious body as a CAP chaplain.
c. Formal Educational Requirements. Chaplain applicants shall meet the educational requirements specified in DoD Instruction 1304.28 as follows:

(1) "The educationally qualified applicant shall possess a baccalaureate degree with not less than 120 semester hours (180 quarter hours) from a qualifying educational institution. The educationally qualified applicant shall also possess a post-baccalaureate graduate degree in the field of theological or related studies from a qualifying educational institution. A qualifying graduate degree program shall require no fewer than 72 semester hours (108 quarter hours) of graduate-level work. Related studies may include graduate courses in pastoral counseling, social work, religious administration, and similar disciplines when one-half of the earned graduate credits include topics in general religion, world religions, the practice of religion, theology, religious philosophy, religious ethics, and/or the foundational writings from the applicant's religious tradition."
(2) "A qualifying educational institution is an accredited college, university, or school of theology listed in the current edition of the American Council on Education (ACE), Accredited Institutions of Post-secondary Education and relevant ACE supplements to that publication (Reference (e)), or any unaccredited institution that meets the requirements of subparagraphs 6.2.1 through 6.2.4."
(3) The Chief of the Chaplain Corps (CAP/HC) may grant a waiver to those who do not meet the graduate study requirement providing they meet all other requirements and present valid documentation of at least 5 years of full time ministry experience as a pastor within their denomination. Chaplains who receive a waiver are not eligible to provide assistance to the military.
(4) All other exceptions to the educational qualifications of a chaplain applicant shall be determined in accordance with DoD Instruction 1304.28.

There are many of us (yes, I am one of them) who are "waivered" chaplains.  We possess an accredited bachelor's degree and have acquired the number of years of pastoral experience to qualify for a waiver.  It has been my privilege and honor to serve as a Civil Air Patrol at all levels in this organization since 1996.  My endorsing denomination does not require a post-graduate degree (the academic institution I graduated from had Biblical/Religious studies/pastoral care in the undergraduate program).  My post-graduate degree is not from an accredited school (it is a vocational degree, not academic).  While I am a Civil Air Patrol chaplain, my academic work does not meet the criteria to serve the military as a "force multiplier".  I did not join CAP to serve as a "force multiplier", I joined it for the 3-fold mission it performs and to be able to serve my community and country through fulfilling CAP's mission.

As for CDI's ...Character Development Instructors are not a form of "Chaplain lite".  According to the CAPR 265-1: 4. Character Development Instructors. Character development instructors (CDIs) are required to be active in and recommended by their local church or similar religious body. CDIs are a part of the CAP Chaplain Corps and are appointed to provide character development instruction in the cadet program. They will not use the title "Chaplain" nor wear chaplain insignia. When duly appointed and upon completion of technician training, CDIs may wear the service badge. Only appointed and endorsed chaplains are authorized to provide ministry as clergy within CAP. Clergy ministry includes: religious ministrations (worship services, baptisms, communion, funerals); solemnizing of events; confidentiality and/or privileged communications. CAP members who are ordained ministers serving in the capacity of CDI are not granted confidentiality or privileged communication in CAP. When working under the guidance of a chaplain, CAP members may provide non-clergy support for chaplain professional ministry. CAP members may offer non-denominational prayers in the absence of a unit chaplain. Commanders will endeavor to make character development instruction available during cadet meetings for no less than 1 hour per month. Commanders may temporarily lead the character development session but should strive to recruit a chaplain or character development instructor as soon as possible. The CDI works under the direction of a chaplain designated by the wing chaplain. When no chaplain is assigned to a unit, the CDI works directly for the commander while maintaining liaison with the wing chaplain. 

The CDI's sole function is to provide character development instruction. 

[Chappie]

Since the Chaplain's Shortage was mentioned earlier, <snip> qualification requirements because we are truly fortunate that our chaplains are generally accorded the same respect and authority of those in the AF but the shortage adversely affects CAP  groups and squadrons across the nation.  I have attended Wing Conferences during which a layperson was called upon to render the invocation and closing prayers because no chaplain was present.  That is often the case at many other official activities during which a chaplain would be the more appropriate individual to perform a religion-related function, especially when the public is invited (such as Veteran's Day; Pearl Harbour observances; and Memorial Day services). 

<snip>

There is a major problem when it comes to recruiting chaplains.  Unlike the military where chaplains are full-time appointments, CAP chaplains -- for the most part -- are either serving in a full-time capacity (though some work outside to support their ministry and family) or are retired ministers/priests/rabbis, etc. 

It boils down to a time issue ....is one willing to make that commitment to serve in a volunteer organization?  Some have chosen to serve in volunteer community organizations such as Rotary, Kiwanis, Lions, Optimist, etc....or serve on school boards or on some other community-organization.  So they are busy with their ministry work.  Those that are retired often do not want to re-engage.  Squadron Commanders are often relunctant to approach clergy in their community to share about CAP and attempt to recruit a chaplain. 

CAP is a "grass roots" organization - IMHO.  The local squadron is where things happen.  It is difficult for a Wing or Region chaplain to try to recruit a chaplain in a local community for a local squadron.  We can assist a squadron commander once we have a prospect...but to make that first contact it is up to the Squadron Commander or someone within their squadron to make that happen.  That is the way the majority of chaplains were brought into the organization.  Had it not been for member of a local squadron who was attending the church I pastored sharing about needing a chaplain and what CAP is about, I would never have joined.  If CAP is one of the best kept secrets, being a CAP Chaplain would be considered a highly classified secret.

[Eclipse]

Since the Chaplain's Shortage was mentioned earlier...

What "shortage"?

I'm not aware of any CAP missions which are going unfulfilled to a greater degree than any other mission or duty.

[Chappie]

Since the Chaplain's Shortage was mentioned earlier...

What "shortage"?

I'm not aware of any CAP missions which are going unfulfilled to a greater degree than any other mission or duty.

Across the Pacific Region, we range between 44% and 87% of our squadrons (6 Wings - HIWG has 9 squadrons and only 1 chaplain -- who also serves as the Wing Chaplain) having no Chaplain or Character Development Instructor presence (the overall percentage for the PCR is 56%).  It would be ideal to have 100% squadron coverage ... but that is not the case   Some of our Chaplains/CDIs do present Character Development at other nearby squadrons so that cadets receive character development.  The dedication of our CAP Chapalin Corps personnel is remarkable.  The 2010 National Squadron Chaplain of the Year is Chaplain, Lt Col Homer Ontman (KSWG) -- who though residing in Missouri serves a Squadron in Kansas who needs a Chaplain.  Round-trip drive - 220 miles (Independence MO to Emporia KS).  A truly remarkable gentleman.

[davidsinn]

Across the Pacific Region, we range between 44% and 87% of our squadrons (6 Wings - HIWG has 9 squadrons and only 1 chaplain -- who also serves as the Wing Chaplain) having no Chaplain or Character Development Instructor presence (the overall percentage for the PCR is 56%).  It would be ideal to have 100% squadron coverage

Why? My unit has never had a chaplain so much as visit nor have we ever had a CDI. It hasn't affected any of our missions.

Some of our Chaplains/CDIs do present Character Development at other nearby squadrons so that cadets receive character development.

Neither a Chaplain nor CDI is required for the CD sessions.

I actually take major issue with the religious requirements for CDI. I know a few atheists that are far more ethical and moral than some(not all or even a large number of) clergy.

[Hawk200]

As for CDI's ...Character Development Instructors are not a form of "Chaplain lite"....

The CDI's sole function is to provide character development instruction.

I guess the way I've intereacted with a couple of them was probably dealing with them as the "preacher" that most of them have been. Discussed some things that I would normally have with a chaplain where a chaplain wasn't available.

I actually take major issue with the religious requirements for CDI.

You have to consider the background of the Character Development Instructor (formerly Moral Leadership Instructor). I remember when it was first enacted, it allowed people to function within their realm of expertise if they didn't have sufficient background to be a chaplain. The current name of the track belies both the original nature and the content of what the track covers, something I have an issue with. To me, it seems to be a bow to political correctness.

I know a few atheists that are far more ethical and moral than some(not all or even a large number of) clergy.

I will agree. I've seen more than a few clergy and "religious" folks that certainly weren't ethical or moral. But, I must point out that many of the believers that truly practice their faith are not the ones that make a production out of themselves. The nature of true faith doesn't place itself on display, it simply "is" and "does." You know them by different actions.

[Chappie]

As for CDI's ...Character Development Instructors are not a form of "Chaplain lite"....

The CDI's sole function is to provide character development instruction.

I guess the way I've intereacted with a couple of them was probably dealing with them as the "preacher" that most of them have been. Discussed some things that I would normally have with a chaplain where a chaplain wasn't available.

I actually take major issue with the religious requirements for CDI.

You have to consider the background of the Character Development Instructor (formerly Moral Leadership Instructor). I remember when it was first enacted, it allowed people to function within their realm of expertise if they didn't have sufficient background to be a chaplain. The current name of the track belies both the original nature and the content of what the track covers, something I have an issue with. To me, it seems to be a bow to political correctness.

I know a few atheists that are far more ethical and moral than some(not all or even a large number of) clergy.

I will agree. I've seen more than a few clergy and "religious" folks that certainly weren't ethical or moral. But, I must point out that many of the believers that truly practice their faith are not the ones that make a production out of themselves. The nature of true faith doesn't place itself on display, it simply "is" and "does." You know them by different actions.

That is not a problem.  CDIs (like any other senior member) can counsel individuals within their level of experience.  The difference between CDI and Chaplains when it comes to counseling is the matter of confidentialty ("clergy privilege".  Chaplains have that -- CDIs don't.


With the unanimous decision of the NEC in their November 2007 there have been some unintended consequences with which the Chaplain Corps has had to deal with.  But that is life in CAP   Here is a link to the action/rationale of the NEC: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2007_Nov_NEC.pdf.  Without a doubt the CDI/MLO program has taken some twists and turns since its inception in 1995.  Over the years, there have been some attempts to clarify the role (the perception out there was CDIs were like the USAF "Chaplain's Assistant" or they were "wannabe Chaplains", etc.).  The provision for CDIs is too fold: 1) to provide trained/qualified personnel to lead the Character Development forum; and 2) an opportunity for clergy, who did not meet the criteria set forth by the DoD for a chaplain's appointment, to serve. 

That is indeed unfortunate when people who "talk the walk don't walk the walk".  There are "hypocrites" in every organization/line of work....but in the "religious" arena it is more obvious   

[Hawk200]

That is not a problem.  CDIs (like any other senior member) can counsel individuals within their level of experience.  The difference between CDI and Chaplains when it comes to counseling is the matter of confidentialty ("clergy privilege".  Chaplains have that -- CDIs don't.

Good to know. I've always believed that even though the person is "just an MLO" (MLOs is what they were called when I was conversing with one regularly) they were still clergy, and that they're still going to have the same level of integrity as a chaplain based on the "outside background."

Hence, what I considered a "chaplain lite" as far as CAP was concerned. Someone you could still talk to if you needed someone to talk to, they probably have experience in dealing with the kinds of problems that you'd likely end up discussing with them, however unofficial the conversation may be.

That is indeed unfortunate when people who "talk the walk don't walk the walk".  There are "hypocrites" in every organization/line of work....but in the "religious" arena it is more obvious   

What still bothers me is the hypocrisy and ignorance of the many that choose to make judgements on them. I have heard many people talk negatively about clergy, and have asked "Would you do or consider doing the same thing they did?" with a response of "Yeah, but I'm not a preacher/elder/priest/rabbi/shaman/monk/etc." OK for you, but not them?

Done properly, it's an opportunity to educate on the subject. I've met many people with some some really unusual ideas as what a person of faith should be.