Vanguard Letter from the National Commander

[a2capt]

An open letter is issued on the subject? Must be even "bigger" than just what is talked about on the forums here. They don't issue letters for everything...

OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COMMANDER
CIVIL AIR PATROL
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AUXILIARY
MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, ALABAMA 36112-6332


22 April 2010


Dear Civil Air Patrol Members


Over the past four years, Vanguard has improved service to Civil Air Patrol (CAP) members in several critical ways. The company has upgraded their website to make it more user friendly and added new software that offers the ability to track orders from the moment they are placed to the time they leave the shipping department. According to our members, order fulfillment has improved dramatically.


Vanguard is in the unique position to be able to not only offer a vast range of quality products to CAP, but also to contribute financially to a worthwhile volunteer organization. In designing this partnership, an exclusive license agreement was devised to return a percentage of all CAP/Vanguard sales to CAP. These funds are combined with matching CAP funds to upgrade training facilities across the country and to support selected CAP public awareness initiatives.


Does the money really make a difference? Thanks largely to Vanguard royalties, we have a 60-foot rappelling tower, hot showers and a four-wheel drive Bobcat at Hawk Mountain. Vanguard royalties have also contributed to improvements at the Blue Beret training facility at Oshkosh, Wisconsin, and helped purchase multiple CAP vehicle wraps. Our partnership with Vanguard provides these multiple important benefits while continuing to fulfill CAP's crucial uniform needs.


Vanguard is constantly working to offer the best service possible to CAP members -- including lowering shipping costs, upgrading customer service and expanding product lines -- with the additional royalties going into CAP. Additionally, Vanguard supports CAP's annual national conference and sets up booths at various wing and region conferences to showcase new products.


A mutually beneficial corporate agreement, partnerships like the CAP/Vanguard Industries affiliation is a win-win scenario. I want to underscore the importance of CAP's partnership with Vanguard. It is only through this exclusive arrangement that CAP chose to create, that we benefit financially as a team.


If you have any questions or concerns, please do not direct them to Vanguard, but instead send them to CAP at comments@capnhq.gov.

                                                         Sincerely


                                                         AMY S. COURTER
                                                         Major General, CAP
                                                         National Commander

I just wish the funding were distributed a little more widely. Perhaps the intend to switch focus, but on the face of it, thats all it looks like they are doing is pouring it into these specific areas.

[peter rabbit]

where is this letter posted?

[Cecil DP]

I received an e-mail broadcasted to all FLWG memberds from Col Moersch, the Wing CC

[Major Lord]

As directed in the letter, I sent the following E-mail a few minutes ago:

comments@capnhq.gov

Thank you very much for outlining the benefits CAP has enjoyed as a result of the exclusivity agreement with Vanguard. Would you be kind enough to release a copy of the actual agreement so that CAP members can have a fuller understanding of how our individually spent dollars are accrued and allocated? Is there a written policy letter or regulation describing how the funds received as a function of this agreement are spent, and any documentation describing specifically how these funds have been spent?

Best regards,

Allen R. Lord

Major Lord

[IceNine]

I don't have a problem with a specific vendor chosen by the organization.  I have very specific and angry feelings about being restricted from purchasing items that are unavailable in their current form from the exclusive vendor.

If Vanguard produced fabric strip name tapes, and quality custom engrave able coins, etc I would have no issues.  But it chaps my backside when they pull vendors that aren't competing because they are producing a unique product.  The more pressing issue here is that instead of partnering with these quality vendors and selling them through the exclusive vendor we are instead ignoring their quality and service, blindly shutting their support of the organization out, and ultimately burning bridges.

I will probably a similar response once I've ironed out the emotion...

[jimmydeanno]

I don't have a problem with a specific vendor chosen by the organization.  I have very specific and angry feelings about being restricted from purchasing items that are unavailable in their current form from the exclusive vendor.

If Vanguard produced fabric strip name tapes, and quality custom engrave able coins, etc I would have no issues.  But it chaps my backside when they pull vendors that aren't competing because they are producing a unique product.  The more pressing issue here is that instead of partnering with these quality vendors and selling them through the exclusive vendor we are instead ignoring their quality and service, blindly shutting their support of the organization out, and ultimately burning bridges.

I will probably a similar response once I've ironed out the emotion...

All the complaining by members about the specific vendor I think can many times be boiled down to what you just said.  Remove the emotion and you'll find most people agree with you.  Heck, I do.

Additionally, if you are looking for CAP "leisure wear" (polo shirts, hats, etc) in a specific color or with a certain logo, etc you're stuck with what Vanguard offers.  Certainly, we've all looked through the selection and have probably not purchased any of it because it doesn't meet modern trends, etc.  Seriously, I'm not going to wear an ultramarine blue button down shirt with pockets that has a huge cessna embroidered on the front.  Ain't gonna happen.

Here's a perfect example:

A very nice hat in quality.  I also like the emblem on the front.  However, I would NEVER purchase this hat because of the horribly looking text on the side of the hat.

Or this:

Again, a high quality fleece jacket but in an awkward color blue and with a hideous logo on it.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I've never liked those Cessna shirts, clearly aimed at pilots (and man have they caused mission-wear issues over the years), but the hat is basically a current design.

The trend these days is stuff all over them.

[Mustang]

The fact General Courter's letter gracefully skirts is that these extra revenues are not the product of Vanguard's goodwill, but a contractually mandated royalty fee that is passed onto Vanguard's customers--i.e., the CAP membership.  So whether it's through an extra 6% paid via Vanguard sales or an extra $10 tacked onto membership dues, what's really going on here is a leadership-sanctioned fleecing of the membership.

Personally, I find statements like "It is only through this exclusive arrangement that CAP chose to create, that we benefit financially as a team." offensive. CAP should be negotiating deals to offer REQUIRED UNIFORM ITEMS at the LOWEST POSSIBLE COST to the member. That the proceeds go to worthwhile CAP programs (debatable) does not change the fact that these funds are coming from one place and one place only: the membership's pockets.

[Eclipse]

I would say its more of a member-subsidy / payback, similar to a credit card rewards program,  then a "fleecing" - if anyone asked me, I would be spending the money elsewhere, probably on encampment scholarships and the like, but no one asked.  It might be nice to have members / activities / wings, etc., submit grant proposals and maybe even have them voted on nationally.

I would imagine the people at HMRS and NBB are pretty happy with how things have worked out so far.

[Major Lord]

I am concerned that not only are these funds that CAP receives in royalties spent on things we are just now hearing about, we are apparently offering "matching" funds to reinforce the monies received in royalties. Effectively, all these funds come from member dues, unless the Air Force is chipping in.....

Major Lord

[AirAux]

I would think that we would get a good return with the Blue Beret funds as it seems to be one of the highest exposure advertizing we have.  It's a great mission with a chance to expose untold numbers of aviation people to the professionalism and dedication of CAP.  The cadets do a great job..

[A.Member]

I don't have a problem with a specific vendor chosen by the organization.  I have very specific and angry feelings about being restricted from purchasing items that are unavailable in their current form from the exclusive vendor.

^  This...

It might be nice to have members...submit grant proposals and maybe even have them voted on nationally.

and ^ this...

sum up the issue rather nicely for me. 

I'd even suggest that the royalties are simply redistributed back to Wings as percentage based on their membership.

I will try to get off a brief e-mail shortly.

[tdepp]

^"The Letter" is The Perfect CAPTalk Storm: Hatred of Vanguard coupled with a discussion of uniforms, grumbling that God forbid anyone in CAP ever have to pay one dime extra for anything to support the organization, to our leadership has sold us out. 

This has to be some sort of Superfecta that even CAPTalk rarely achieves.   

Now, if we could only figure out a way to add in Chaplains and members being allowed to conceal carry guns while in uniform, Gen. John Curry would return from Air Force Heaven and have a day of CAP reckoning, separating the AF-style uniform wearers from the fat and fuzzies.

[JC004]

The hot showers are not motivating me to buy from Vanguard.

They still screw us by not offering stuff we want and the agreement makes it so others can't either.  Awesome.

[Senior]

I have had a nagging feeling about paying Vanguard for stuff, and then they send a portion of our money back to National.  Why don't
they tack on 5-10 dollars to membership dues and cut out Vanguard as the middleman?   

[Rotorhead]

Thanks largely to Vanguard royalties, we have a 60-foot rappelling tower, hot showers and a four-wheel drive Bobcat at Hawk Mountain. Vanguard royalties have also contributed to improvements at the Blue Beret training facility at Oshkosh, Wisconsin, and helped purchase multiple CAP vehicle wraps.

None of which benefit me or my Wing.

Saying this has the exactly the opposite effect of what was intended, at least in my case.

[vmstan]

I don't have a problem with a specific vendor chosen by the organization.  I have very specific and angry feelings about being restricted from purchasing items that are unavailable in their current form from the exclusive vendor.

If Vanguard produced fabric strip name tapes, and quality custom engrave able coins, etc I would have no issues.  But it chaps my backside when they pull vendors that aren't competing because they are producing a unique product.  The more pressing issue here is that instead of partnering with these quality vendors and selling them through the exclusive vendor we are instead ignoring their quality and service, blindly shutting their support of the organization out, and ultimately burning bridges.

I will probably a similar response once I've ironed out the emotion...

All the complaining by members about the specific vendor I think can many times be boiled down to what you just said.  Remove the emotion and you'll find most people agree with you.  Heck, I do.

Additionally, if you are looking for CAP "leisure wear" (polo shirts, hats, etc) in a specific color or with a certain logo, etc you're stuck with what Vanguard offers.  Certainly, we've all looked through the selection and have probably not purchased any of it because it doesn't meet modern trends, etc.  Seriously, I'm not going to wear an ultramarine blue button down shirt with pockets that has a huge cessna embroidered on the front.  Ain't gonna happen.

Here's a perfect example:
A very nice hat in quality.  I also like the emblem on the front.  However, I would NEVER purchase this hat because of the horribly looking text on the side of the hat.

Or this:
Again, a high quality fleece jacket but in an awkward color blue and with a hideous logo on it.

YMMV.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who say those two items and thought the exact same thing. I'd buy the hat in a heartbeat if it didn't have the crap on the sides. If the fleece and other clothes had just a CAP/USAFAux logo on it I'd own 5 and wear them all the time. But not how it looks now.

[RiverAux]

I'm a little surprised that NHQ felt the need to issue a letter like this.  I can't help but think it is in response to frequent CAPTalk posts on the issue. 

[vmstan]

Among other places. The "official" Facebook page had a lot of traffic about it too. It's also been the topic of discussion at just about every CAP function I've been to since that happened. I'm sure they are getting a lot of heat about it.

[Eclipse]

The "official" Facebook page had a lot of traffic about it too.

CAP has an "Official" Facebook page?

Does it have twinkly glitter letters and a Farmville account, too?

[JC004]

I'm happy to see that other people think the stuff they have is lame.  It's a shame Vanguard doesn't actually know what we want.  It's also a shame NHQ doesn't allow companies give us things that we want - like fabric strip tapes, better non-uniform stuff, freaking challenge coins, etc., etc.

Has Vanguard ever done a member survey?  Good companies like Starbucks do them all the time.  They say "Would you buy this?," "Is this type of item important to you?," etc.  Non-profits like the ASPCA and all have shops with cool stuff that their members would actually buy.

Screw the showers.  I'm all for the idea of allowing subordinate units to apply for grants that come from Vanguard funds to fund things that benefit us more.  Let a wing be able to buy SAR gear, a group to be able to buy supplies for AE outreach, etc., etc.

[a2capt]

I'm happy to see that other people think the stuff they have is lame.  It's a shame Vanguard doesn't actually know what we want.

Now...

It's also a shame NHQ doesn't allow companies give us things that we want - like fabric strip tapes, better non-uniform stuff, freaking challenge coins, etc., etc.

We are ...

Screw the showers.  I'm all for the idea of allowing subordinate units to apply for grants that come from Vanguard funds to fund things that benefit us more.  Let a wing be able to buy SAR gear, a group to be able to buy supplies for AE outreach, etc., etc.

Onto something!

Has Vanguard ever done a member survey?  Good companies like Starbucks do them all the time.  They say "Would you buy this?," "Is this type of item important to you?," etc.  Non-profits like the ASPCA and all have shops with cool stuff that their members would actually buy.

They do have this recent customer satisfaction survey that is still active .. perhaps some of these comments on the feedback block might get some attention ..

[davidsinn]

I ordered from VG ten days ago. Just some piddly little insignia I need for wing conference tomorrow. It just shipped today. That is very poor service.

[lordmonar]

I ordered from VG ten days ago. Just some piddly little insignia I need for wing conference tomorrow. It just shipped today. That is very poor service.

No not really.

Mail Order buisnesses typically use 4-6 weeks as their standard turn around time.

[davidsinn]

I ordered from VG ten days ago. Just some piddly little insignia I need for wing conference tomorrow. It just shipped today. That is very poor service.

No not really.

Mail Order buisnesses typically use 4-6 weeks as their standard turn around time.

None I've ever used. I've had computer parts installed less than 24 hours after I ordered using standard USPS shipping. Hock would be here in three to four days.

Per their own website it should have been in transit five to seven days ago:

If I placed my order today, how long before the order will ship?
  With  the large volume of items we ship daily, it normally takes 3-5 working  days before an order leaves the warehouse. Custom and personalized items may take an additional 7-10 working days. There are special  circumstances in which we will try to expedite your order. When asking for  special shipping, i.e. Overnight, Second or Third day, please keep in  mind these are methods of shipping only. Orders still require 3-5  working days to process.  PLEASE NOTE: Any items backordered will be shipped First Class Mail.

5 ea.	Civil Air Patrol - Bronze Triangle Ribbon Clasp	$3.25
2 ea.	Civil Air Patrol - Captain on Ultramarine Blue	$1.70
2 ea.	Civil Air Patrol - Senior Ground Team Cloth	$1.70
1 ea.	Civil Air Patrol - Olive Loop 4 By 12"	$2.35

That's my order. Nothing custom. Nothing they shouldn't have had stocked. It left the warehouse this morning. So recently that USPS hasn't even logged it into their system yet.

[lordmonar]

Maybe I'm just old.

As for your specific order....the quote says "normally" 3-5 buisness days. 

So let's do the math.

So...you ordered 10 days ago....13 April.

Two days for the week end....that is 8 days....so they missed their target ship day by 3 days.

Now they say normally.  What is normal?  Maybe....just maybe.....one of the items on your list was not available but was comming in soon...so they held your order until it was complete.

I don't think a 3 days slippage is "poor" performance.

[arajca]

Three days slippage for a stock order is poor performance.

Reputable companies will let you know if there are any issues with your order promptly and usually (98.7589% of the time) give you the option to either cancel the problem item(s), do a split ship, or wait for the entire order to ship at one time. Believe it or not, this included the Bookstore and CAPMart.

The few companies that I have had that poor performance with I no longer use.

[lordmonar]

Three days slippage for a stock order is poor performance.

Reputable companies will let you know if there are any issues with your order promptly and usually (98.7589% of the time) give you the option to either cancel the problem item(s), do a split ship, or wait for the entire order to ship at one time. Believe it or not, this included the Bookstore and CAPMart.

The few companies that I have had that poor performance with I no longer use.

That is true....according the FTC the standard is 30 days from time of receipt of the order.....so again....I question your categorisation of their performance as poor.

[arajca]

If a company says it'll be 3-5 days before shipping and waits ANOTHER 3 days to ship, they've broken their word to the customer. FTC standard may be the technical definition of poor performance, but a company that does not meet its own statements is not showing good perfomance, even it their performance does meet the technical definition of poor performance.

[RADIOMAN015]

I ordered from VG ten days ago. Just some piddly little insignia I need for wing conference tomorrow. It just shipped today. That is very poor service.

No not really.

Mail Order buisnesses typically use 4-6 weeks as their standard turn around time.

Maybe the late night TV ads for some "unique" items would be 4-6 weeks, but those are potential 'scammers" anyways, not normal mailhouse businesses that have "stock" items advertised on their website.

Other Vanguard "supporters" on the list seem to want to make excuses for Vanguard, in fact even Vanguard makes excuses for their "poor service" of 3 to 5 working days BEFORE AN ORDER SHIPS because they are SO busy !!!

As a good example of service  -- I called a mail order house to get a stock proprietary battery pack for one of my radio scanners/receivers that they carry on Moday mid-morning.  It shipped that afternoon and I got it the next day.  (Including an email notice stating the order had been processeded & another email stating it had shipped along with the tracking number.   That was what I expect as far as required service.   

IF any of the membership wants to continue to put up with Vanguard's poor service, than that's fine BUT personally I think everyone having a bad experience with Vanguard needs to file a complaint with Membership Services at National Headquarters
RM

[Short Field]

Admit it.  It doesn't matter what Vanguard or National does, some of you will NEVER be happy with Vanguard.

[FlyTiger77]

I ordered from VG ten days ago. Just some piddly little insignia I need for wing conference tomorrow. It just shipped today. That is very poor service.

No not really.

Mail Order businesses typically use 4-6 weeks as their standard turn around time.

Really? The vendors I frequently patronize usually ship to my door (ok, post office box) in a week to 10 days max. I remember 4-6 weeks back in the '70s and '80s, but certainly not in the last decade or so.

[jimmydeanno]

^Service time, this day in age is a big deal.  We aren't ordering from the Sears Roebuck Catalog.  I ordered some technology related items from a vendor shipping from CHINA and it got to me in 4 days with free shipping.

Vanguard makes nice high quality stuff.  Their representatives consistently say that CAP customers are the most demanding in their expectations, but they have made significant improvement over the last few years.

[tsrup]

Last time I heard, when a company "donates" heavily toward an organization and then becomes it's exclusive supplier, that was bad...

But on the flip side, this nonsense about "oh they took for ever on my order", c'mon..

I'm sure the  Hock had their problems too, and I'm sure there has been times where vanguard exceeded your expectations.     
Like last time I ordered my leather name patch, I expected at least 2 weeks for them to process my order (custom and all).  I received that patch in 5 days.  Unfortunately stories like that are going to be pushed aside whilst everyone grabs their pitchforks and torches..

So lets face it, there could be a real issue with the donations and the exclusivity, but dogpiling on with "they took 3 days longer that they said they Normaly take to process orders" isn't productive.

[RADIOMAN015]

Last time I heard, when a company "donates" heavily toward an organization and then becomes it's exclusive supplier, that was bad...

But on the flip side, this nonsense about "oh they took for ever on my order", c'mon..

So lets face it, there could be a real issue with the donations and the exclusivity, but dogpiling on with "they took 3 days longer that they said they Normaly take to process orders" isn't productive.

Really   Why don't you ask the many senior members (and even cadets) that need something for an upcoming event that didn't get it on time.    Lets face it when you deal with Vanguard you are spinning the guessing wheel as to when you will get you order. 
Only thing I can say is with the Hock Shop if you ordered it before lunch (and maybe after lunch) it got shipped to you THE SAME DAY!!!   
Stop making excuses for Vanguard, and since the leadership & paid administration at CAP created this problem in the first place (rather than a licensing agreement with The Hawk) they SHOULD take the heat EVERY time there's a problem with Vanguard.   
RM

[tdepp]

^For better or worse, The Hock Shop ship has sailed away until or unless they get a licensing agreement from CAP and they can return to port.  So, how about we concentrate on helping NHQ make our experience with Vanguard better?

[bosshawk]

Todd: good suggestion, but we have members who would rather [censored] than fix things.

[capchiro]

Gentlmen, Vanguard stocks a lot of the military clothing stores and handles orders from active duty all over the world from all of the services.  As such, I think they are doing okay with our stuff.  Perhaps you weren't around during the days of the bookstore, but things weren't any better then.  I have been happy with the items I have ordered and the time it took.  Maybe some members should plan ahead and not wait until the last minute to order items.  It is what it is.  Get over it or find some other volunteer group to join.  It is always amazing that the minority that are so unhappy with things can be so vocal.  It is also amazing that the same people P & M over everything.. 

[wingnut55]

 True :clap: :clap: :clap:

[RADIOMAN015]

So, how about we concentrate on helping NHQ make our experience with Vanguard better?

Todd,
It is simple, you call membership service and tell them about your experience with Vanguard. (There is someone at National Headquarters handling this monitoring).   BTW please compare it to what you normally experience when dealing with mail order retailers.  Maybe I've been lucky (as well as others posting) in those mail order retailers that I deal with seem to be able to ship same day or the next day at the latest on stock items.

My experience tells me that their is a problem with Vanguard in that they cannot maintain consistent processing time standards.  This may be due to not meeting contract requirements (e.g. not enough stock), inadequate staffing, or flawed processing procedures for special orders (e.g. name tags/plates) or a combination of all of these. 
RM

[RADIOMAN015]

It is what it is.  Get over it or find some other volunteer group to join.  It is always amazing that the minority that are so unhappy with things can be so vocal.  It is also amazing that the same people P & M over everything..

CAP TALK is a great place for those happy as well as unhappy with CAP "volunteer" life & selected polices to post their opinions.  Some will agree and some won't, that's the way it is

Personally to a certain extent I find it amusing that Vanguard can't maintain a specific processing standard that most others in the fulfilment mail order retailing industry seem to be able to do.  Others posting seem to agree with that.

As far as quiting CAP over this, I doubt that anyone will (even stating that is childish, but does exhibit the mindset of some in CAP, who somehow believe they are in a military tops down organization and not an organization that really depends upon volunteers from the bottoms up to be successful).  As far as not expressing negative opinions, doubt that (and I think you will find that when warranted I've posted positive opinions also, just as others have also done on the list).

BTW as the Unit PAO today I actually got two TV stations to cover a wing wide event held at our host base, there's been very little success with this in the past.   Hopefully, I'll also be successful with getting coverage for some upcoming regional activities that will also be held at our host military base.   

Lets get Vanguard to get their house in order, they've had enough time to correct their processing problems.   Pretty simple, when you have a problem with Vanguard call the Membership Service Department at National Headquarters (they will have the statistics from Vanguard on how many orders were processed so there's no need for happy people to call them since the mindset is everything is "wonderful" on those total orders processed so they do need to know who is unhappy).     
RM

[peter rabbit]

thanks for the info on contacting NHQ. i ordered a regimental tie 2 March - Vanguard is saying they should have it by the end of April!

[tdepp]

So, how about we concentrate on helping NHQ make our experience with Vanguard better?

Todd,
It is simple, you call membership service and tell them about your experience with Vanguard. (There is someone at National Headquarters handling this monitoring).   BTW please compare it to what you normally experience when dealing with mail order retailers.  Maybe I've been lucky (as well as others posting) in those mail order retailers that I deal with seem to be able to ship same day or the next day at the latest on stock items.

My experience tells me that their is a problem with Vanguard in that they cannot maintain consistent processing time standards.  This may be due to not meeting contract requirements (e.g. not enough stock), inadequate staffing, or flawed processing procedures for special orders (e.g. name tags/plates) or a combination of all of these. 
RM

Radio:  I agree.  If people have a bad service experience, they should tell Vanguard and NHQ.  I'm not saying that some of our members haven't had problems with Vanguard.  If so, they should make their feelings known in a professional manner.

I also thank businesses and professionals who do a good job for me as well, so maybe Vanguard and NHQ will get a "thank you" call from me after my next successful order, just to let them know that not everyone thinks they stink.

I've read where some of you have ordered awards and other uniform items prior to conferences and were mad that you didn't get them in time.  Last fall, I ordered quite a bit of foul weather soccer referee gear from a well regarded soccer supplier--Score--I had successfully used in the past about ten days prior to the state tournament.  The long range weather forecast predicted snow, cold, and rain here in SoDak.  (Yes, we play soccer in all sorts of weather.  )  Of course it arrived the following week after the tournament.  But really, who's fault was that?  Mine.  I waited too long to order what I know I would need for a soccer tournament in mid-October in northern South Dakota.  My bad, not Score's.

I've had very good luck with eBay merchants, even on CAP related items, with quick service.  For whatever reasons, there appears to be a lot of ribbons and sliders for sale from former members.  You might look there as a Plan B to Vanguard.   You can also have Vanguard ship what they have in stock now and the backordered stuff when it is back in stock.

[tdepp]

BTW as the Unit PAO today I actually got two TV stations to cover a wing wide event held at our host base, there's been very little success with this in the past.   Hopefully, I'll also be successful with getting coverage for some upcoming regional activities that will also be held at our host military base.

Congratulations on the positive coverage.  But I think you buried the lead.  You should have then told the media that Vanguard is the the AIG of the uniform provisioning industry and they could uncork an investigate report that could win them a 2010 Buckeye News Hawk Award if they do a story on the uncaring monopolists and their NHQ co-conspirators.

For example: 

"Tonight on Eyewitness New at 10, a Channel 5 investigation reveals that the local Civil Air Patrol squadron's supplier of uniform items sometimes takes a week more than they say when CAP members order their Senior Rating Historian Badges.  The shocking details, next!" 

Now THAT'S news you can use!

[RADIOMAN015]

Interesting, not sure when this survey was done on Vanguard but check out the following link:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=u3R_2fqNEizZR2s9BmYzJPjA_3d_3d

Not sure who is doing this survey, it does have the CAP seal on it.
RM

[DakRadz]

Perhaps an underlying factor to all this anti-VG emotion is the fact that our (admittedly corporate) organization has eliminated the mom-and-pop store of CAP. It's a lot easier to forgive fellow CAPpers that know how important some orders might be, than a business that just wants profit.

Since this is about the letter from Maj. Gen. Courter, here's a good point (to me). Blue Beret, that's a National Activity- decent fund allocation, at the very least appropriate for NHQ to do. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hawk Mountain exclusively for PAWG?  Leastways, when I looked it up to see if I could apply (as a ALWG/GAWG cadet), that was my impression.

[JayT]

Hawk is an NCSA

[tsrup]

Really   Why don't you ask the many senior members (and even cadets) that need something for an upcoming event that didn't get it on time.    Lets face it when you deal with Vanguard you are spinning the guessing wheel as to when you will get you order. 

This is one of my pet peeves.  Don't blame the supplier because you didn't plan ahead on your uniform items. 
Maybe there are a few exceptions to the rule, but generally the occasions where I've run into that excuse it was as a result of procrastination on the person ordering, not the shipper. 

[vmstan]

Hawk is open to anyone, it's just run by PAWG, from what I understand.

POLICY OF HAWK MT FACILITY USE BY CAP MEMBERS:
The Col Neuweiler Training Facility - Hawk Mountain Ranger School is a tremendous asset that all CAP Members should be using:

The Hawk Mountain Ranger Training Facility is owned by the Civil Air Patrol. It is operated, maintained & managed by PA Wing.

[Hawk200]

This is one of my pet peeves.  Don't blame the supplier because you didn't plan ahead on your uniform items. 
Maybe there are a few exceptions to the rule, but generally the occasions where I've run into that excuse it was as a result of procrastination on the person ordering, not the shipper.

How far should you plan ahead? At what point is it a person's procrastination or just not being shipped in a timely manner?

Last summer, I ordered a number of items about four weeks before the activity. I was sent an email two weeks after the order asking if I wanted the in-stock items shipped first. This was an option that I had selected when placing the order. Another few days went by before it showed the dreaded "in transit". It arrived the day after the meeting, but two days before the activity, so I had to make a trip to drop things off to the person in charge.

In your opinion, did I order in time? If I didn't, how far in advance should I have ordered?

[DakRadz]

Hawk is open to anyone, it's just run by PAWG, from what I understand.

POLICY OF HAWK MT FACILITY USE BY CAP MEMBERS:
The Col Neuweiler Training Facility - Hawk Mountain Ranger School is a tremendous asset that all CAP Members should be using:

The Hawk Mountain Ranger Training Facility is owned by the Civil Air Patrol. It is operated, maintained & managed by PA Wing.

Ooooo, well then. I can be a *RAAAANGER*? Know what I'm doing next summer.
Sorry, irrevelant reference. Anyway, I suppose that is technically proper use of funds, then.
~~~~
I've always received my items quicker from The Hock (Postal Service, too- before the change) and they automatically shipped my in-stock items (I had ordered a complete enlisted rank set, they were out of c/CMSgt). Vanguard is slower, but they are bigger; Vanguard doesn't do as many specialty items, but they are not a specifically CAP store (though as the official store, they should act like it..) The Hock had problems, too- often out of stock, but at least they changed the website so you couldn't order at all.

[A.Member]

I have yet to see this letter via official communication channels.  Are we sure this letter (OP) was publicly distributed to the membership? 

[davidsinn]

I have yet to see this letter via official communication channels.  Are we sure this letter (OP) was publicly distributed to the membership?

I got it from my wing commander over the weekend.

[mynetdude]

well if HMRS is an NCSA why is there a separate application process for it? IIRC you can't apply for it via eServices in the NDSA and um why are we providing funding for a vehicle/equipment we are not allowed to operate/own? a 4WD Bobcat? I didn't know it was allowed to be owned/operated by CAP?

I guess I won't be buying anything from VG I already pay for membership via my dues, why do I need to keep paying national for more? We didn't get asked if it was OK with us they are just siphoning money right out of our money for their own good? IF I want to give NHQ or my wing or my squadron money I will do it willingly directly by writing a CHECK to that entity not through some product purchase.

I preferred to go through the Hock because of their speedy response in spite of once I had a backorder and I had to ask about it and I was told concerning such issues.  Vanguard has only exceeded my expectations once and sent stuff to me via fedex overnight when I didn't ask for it a long time ago. I also went through the Hock as there were more varieties.

VG isn't just for CAP what about USCG Aux? What does VG do with the monies for those purchases? Does CGAux have a licensing deal with VG for that?

[SarDragon]

well if HMRS is an NCSA why is there a separate application process for it?

It's administered by PAWG, not NHQ. That's no different from a wing or regional encampment application, except this event counts as an NCSA.

IIRC you can't apply for it via eServices in the NDSA and um why are we providing funding for a vehicle/equipment we are not allowed to operate/own? a 4WD Bobcat? I didn't know it was allowed to be owned/operated by CAP?

My guess is that the HAWK folks demonstrated a need, set down some rules for use, showed a history of safe use in the pre-ban days, and applied for and got a waiver. The process was in place, and they used it.

I guess I won't be buying anything from VG I already pay for membership via my dues, why do I need to keep paying national for more? We didn't get asked if it was OK with us they are just siphoning money right out of our money for their own good? IF I want to give NHQ or my wing or my squadron money I will do it willingly directly by writing a CHECK to that entity not through some product purchase.

I preferred to go through the Hock because of their speedy response in spite of once I had a backorder and I had to ask about it and I was told concerning such issues.  Vanguard has only exceeded my expectations once and sent stuff to me via fedex overnight when I didn't ask for it a long time ago. I also went through the Hock as there were more varieties.

VG isn't just for CAP what about USCG Aux? What does VG do with the monies for those purchases? Does CGAux have a licensing deal with VG for that?

No answers on the remainder. You're on your own there.

[tdepp]

well if HMRS is an NCSA why is there a separate application process for it? IIRC you can't apply for it via eServices in the NDSA and um why are we providing funding for a vehicle/equipment we are not allowed to operate/own? a 4WD Bobcat? I didn't know it was allowed to be owned/operated by CAP?

VG isn't just for CAP what about USCG Aux? What does VG do with the monies for those purchases? Does CGAux have a licensing deal with VG for that?

As someone also joining USCGAux, I'm not sure but I think Lighthouse Uniform Company is their main uniform supplier.  They also seem to sell quite a bit of their own stuff.  RiverAux, aren't you also a Auxiliarist?

USCGAux, I'm sure, makes its own deals with its vendors.  Vanguard mostly just sells ranks and badges for them, not uniforms like they do for us. 

[MIKE]

Though it is true that Lighthouse "makes" uniforms already configured for Auxiliarists, it would be like saying The Hock is the official supplier for CAP.  When you buy insignia and accessories from CGEX or UDC they come in Vanguard packaging  I would think that it is conceivable that at least some of the stuff is made under contract with the Coast Guard proper.

[DogCollar]

Can anyone tell me why Vanguard does not sell all appropriate AF Style uniform items?  Why don't they sell the AF Officers Service Coat?  AF Style blue windbreaker?  AF style sweaters?

[MIKE]

Because you are supposed to get those through AAFES MCSS.  What they do sell is out of convenience for your average CAP member.  The CAP Bookstore used to sell mess dress, the Wooly Pully and the lightweight blue jacket though.

[DogCollar]

Because you are supposed to get those through AAFES MCSS.  What they do sell is out of convenience for your average CAP member.  The CAP Bookstore used to sell mess dress, the Wooly Pully and the lightweight blue jacket though.

I understand.  However....

As I read the Generals letter, she is asking us to utilize Vanguard for our CAP needs, because they turn around and give a portion back for certain, select CAP training centers.  Yet, there are certain things we are pretty much forced to get from other sources, such as AAFES  MCSS.  Yet, AAFES MCSS doesn't have on-line purchasing available for CAP members, nor does AAFES MCSS return a percentage of that expenditure to CAP.

Just seems to me that the exclusive supplier to CAP should have EVERYTHING a CAP member might need.

[lordmonar]

As I read the Generals letter, she is asking us to utilize Vanguard for our CAP needs, because they turn around and give a portion back for certain, select CAP training centers.  Yet, there are certain things we are pretty much forced to get from other sources, such as AAFES  MCSS.  Yet, AAFES MCSS doesn't have on-line purchasing available for CAP members, nor does AAFES MCSS return a percentage of that expenditure to CAP.

Just seems to me that the exclusive supplier to CAP should have EVERYTHING a CAP member might need.

Call AAFES and order over the phone....

If Vanguard were to sell MCSS items they would mark them up.....so there is your trade off.  Convience of one stop shopping vice Vanguards mark up.

[a2capt]

The Big V hates having to deal with those uniform items they do sell. But .. they had to do that or they couldn't be the exclusive supplier. Only those items they have no way to assert control over, are what is available elsewhere.

[mynetdude]

I only compared Auxiliary vs CAP in terms of contractual agreements for uniform items I could say this is unheard of or absurd but if its normal practice then none of us should be surprised this is happening if the other groups like CGAux, Young Marines, etc have contract agreements with certain vendors to only sell those items.

Why didn't they put it to a stop when the hock started doing it? Or did they just let the hock do what they were doing so they could laugh and say "investment in suit becoming fruitious"? (if you want to sue someone for some kind of monetary loss and breach of contracts why not wait a couple years or so then slam them around?).

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

[A.Member]

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

Flat out wrong. 

You are required to wear a uniform while "engaged in any normal duties" as a CAP member, that especially include attending meetings.  You may want to brush up on 39-1, Table 1-1. 

[mynetdude]

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

Flat out wrong. 

You are required to wear a uniform while "engaged in any normal duties" as a CAP member, that especially include attending meetings.  You may want to brush up on 39-1, Table 1-1.

Wanna bet? Since you cited I'll quote (bold my emphasis)

all CAP personnel touring Washington DC, as part of a CAP activity or
conducting CAP business in the metropolitan area, will wear the service
uniform, civilian clothing, or the blazer and slacks or skirt combination,
and will be properly groomed. Senior members visiting the White
House, Capitol, State Department, or comparable buildings in uniform
will wear the service uniform with service coat (service dress uniform)
or blazer uniform. Cadets are not required to wear the service coat. In no
case will BDUs, flight suits, or utility uniforms be worn.

^ one example of wearing civvies

Unit commanders can make exceptions for travel in small commuter aircraft that involve short
flights in areas of the country where civilians wear informal clothing because of weather or cramped
conditions on the commuter aircraft.

^it doesn't say wearing civvies, just informal so I would take that to being civvies as an option

That's all of table 1-1 it doesn't say I must wear uniform AT squadron meetings

[RiverAux]

So your argument is that a squadron meeting isn't a CAP activity?  Ok.

[A.Member]

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

Flat out wrong. 

You are required to wear a uniform while "engaged in any normal duties" as a CAP member, that especially include attending meetings.  You may want to brush up on 39-1, Table 1-1.

Wanna bet? 

Sure.  Are you prepared to lose?

Like I said, you need to familiarize yourself with the entire 39-1 Table 1-1, not just one line.

Try the sixth line in the table that says Members will wear a uniform:

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

[tdepp]

Because you are supposed to get those through AAFES MCSS.  What they do sell is out of convenience for your average CAP member.  The CAP Bookstore used to sell mess dress, the Wooly Pully and the lightweight blue jacket though.

I understand.  However....

As I read the Generals letter, she is asking us to utilize Vanguard for our CAP needs, because they turn around and give a portion back for certain, select CAP training centers.  Yet, there are certain things we are pretty much forced to get from other sources, such as AAFES  MCSS.  Yet, AAFES MCSS doesn't have on-line purchasing available for CAP members, nor does AAFES MCSS return a percentage of that expenditure to CAP.

Just seems to me that the exclusive supplier to CAP should have EVERYTHING a CAP member might need.

I have not seen the alleged letter come through to us in the SDWG yet.  And our Wing Commander is good at keeping us in the loop on things like this.  Does anyone have a scan of the letter that they could post?

[ßτε]

I have not seen the alleged letter come through to us in the SDWG yet.  And our Wing Commander is good at keeping us in the loop on things like this.  Does anyone have a scan of the letter that they could post?

It's an attachment in the original post.

[mynetdude]

So your argument is that a squadron meeting isn't a CAP activity?  Ok.

Never said that

IF regulations didn't stipulate uniform wear is required that does not make a sdn activity not a CAP acivity.

[mynetdude]

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

Flat out wrong. 

You are required to wear a uniform while "engaged in any normal duties" as a CAP member, that especially include attending meetings.  You may want to brush up on 39-1, Table 1-1.

Wanna bet? 

Sure.  Are you prepared to lose?

Like I said, you need to familiarize yourself with the entire 39-1 Table 1-1, not just one line.

Try the sixth line in the table that says Members will wear a uniform:

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

I always lose, what's new

[tdepp]

I have not seen the alleged letter come through to us in the SDWG yet.  And our Wing Commander is good at keeping us in the loop on things like this.  Does anyone have a scan of the letter that they could post?

It's an attachment in the original post.

BTE:
Thanks. I suffer from the dreaded disease of CRS--Can't Remember Ship! 

[tdepp]

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

Flat out wrong. 

You are required to wear a uniform while "engaged in any normal duties" as a CAP member, that especially include attending meetings.  You may want to brush up on 39-1, Table 1-1.

Wanna bet? 

Sure.  Are you prepared to lose?

Like I said, you need to familiarize yourself with the entire 39-1 Table 1-1, not just one line.

Try the sixth line in the table that says Members will wear a uniform:

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

I always lose, what's new

Hey, hey, hey there kids! Remember, CAPTalk is an exhibition and not a competition. Remember, no wagering.* 

*From David Letterman, when he used to be funny.

[mynetdude]

I guess we'll see more of this in corporate America, you know technically you aren't required to wear a uniform specifically at CAP unless you are doing any specific activities such as AFAM, Cadet Programs, community activities (some require uniforms), going on DoD installations/bases.  But to attend a meeting or social event there isn't anything that requires uniform as far as I can tell (I don't show up in uniform half the time).

Flat out wrong. 

You are required to wear a uniform while "engaged in any normal duties" as a CAP member, that especially include attending meetings.  You may want to brush up on 39-1, Table 1-1.

Wanna bet? 

Sure.  Are you prepared to lose?

Like I said, you need to familiarize yourself with the entire 39-1 Table 1-1, not just one line.

Try the sixth line in the table that says Members will wear a uniform:

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

I always lose, what's new

Hey, hey, hey there kids! Remember, CAPTalk is an exhibition and not a competition. Remember, no wagering.* 

*From David Letterman, when he used to be funny.

Actually he still would have won even if I hadn't betted Somehow when I clicked on Chapter 1 T1-1 I missed the first section, I got the last half of it.

He is right all along, I still lose nothing new though . I certainly will owe him one when I run into him, ok my IOUs have started already

[a2capt]

Heh, someones buying Google Ad Words .. ;-)

(seen at the top of Google Aps Mail)

"Civil Air Patrol Store - www.vanguardmil.com - Civil Air Patrol Uniforms, Insignia Leisure Wear and much more!"

I wonder if thats connected, time wise coincidental.. I can't recall seeing that one before. Usually it's SAR gear, Gridded sectionals or pilot stuff.

[tdepp]

^^^I've seen these ads for months.  Now I suppose Vanguard isn't supposed to advertise either. 

[a2capt]

Oh, no, not at all.  I just hadn't seen that one come into the rotation, and thought it was coincidental based on the recent release of that letter from NHQ since this whole Big V thing is a rather .. hot topic. ;-)

I mean, they don't generally issue letters about everything.

[vmstan]

One day I ordered a Yeager ribbon, and nothing else. Almost three weeks later they shipped my Yeager ribbon, a week later I got my ribbon.

One month is an awfully long time to get an 85 cent ribbon.

[lordmonar]

One day I ordered a ribbon, it shipped the next day and arrived three days later.

Anecdotal evidence is all good....but to what point?

Three weeks to get a ribbon shipped.....did you call Vanguard to check the status?  Was there a problem (maybe temporarily out of stock?).

No one here can really answer for Vanguard on specific situations.

Bottom line is that unless you know of another source you got to suck it up.....complain to VG when you get poor service and poor merchandise and move on.

[peter rabbit]

thanks for the info on contacting NHQ. i ordered a regimental tie 2 March - Vanguard is saying they should have it by the end of April!

I just checked again on the tie - they replied that their supplier had pushed delivery back to 90 days. I don't have a reply back yet whether that is 90 days from original order date of 2 March or 90 days from now!

[Eclipse]

thanks for the info on contacting NHQ. i ordered a regimental tie 2 March - Vanguard is saying they should have it by the end of April!

I just checked again on the tie - they replied that their supplier had pushed delivery back to 90 days. I don't have a reply back yet whether that is 90 days from original order date of 2 March or 90 days from now!

I just noticed what you ordered.  Why do you want to wear the red-striper?  Just wear the standard USAF tie, it actually looks a lot cleaner.

[SarDragon]

Gotta agree with Bob here. (Horrors!)

The regimental tie is only worn with the blazer, and the AF blue tie is the other option.

[Short Field]

Probably only the second regimental tie Vanguard has sold in the last year....

[peter rabbit]

I just noticed what you ordered.  Why do you want to wear the red-striper?  Just wear the standard USAF tie, it actually looks a lot cleaner.

1. because it is what i had seen as the example in the manual and other people wearing
2. because my wife thinks it looks better 

thanks for the suggestion. it was my backup plan, but will now become plan A.

[jimmydeanno]

Silk worms only produce regmental tie colors when the moon is in Jupiter.  Hence the delay.

[Pumbaa]

I thought silk worms were Iranian Missiles?

[PHall]

I thought silk worms were Iranian Missiles?

No, they're Chinese missiles that were sold to the Iranians.

[a2capt]

I thought silk worms were Iranian Missiles?

No, those would be sand worm missiles. Silk is from China ;-)