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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« on: November 12, 2006, 10:21:29 PM »

Just a reminder that Civil Air Patrol has and uses official grade abbreviations for both senior members (officers) and cadets.

Senior Member abbreviations are outlined in CAPR 35-5, CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS as follows:

a. Senior Member grades are:
1) Major General (Maj Gen)
2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
3) Colonel (Col)
4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
5) Major (Maj)
6) Captain (Capt)
7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

b. CAP flight officer grades are:
1) Senior Flight Officer (SFO)
2) Technical Flight Officer (TFO)
3) Flight Officer (FO)

c. CAP NCO grades are:
1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)
6) Sergeant (Sgt)

Cadet grades are structured in CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management, in Figure 2-3 and the use of these abbreviations is regulated by Section 2-4, h.

Cadet Airman Basic (C/AB)
Cadet Airman (C/Amn)
Cadet Airman First Class (C/A1C)
Cadet Senior Airman (C/SrA)
Cadet Staff Sergeant (C/SSgt)
Cadet Technical Sergeant (C/TSgt)
Cadet Master Sergeant (C/MSgt)
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant (C/SMSgt)
Cadet Chief Master Sergeant (C/CMSgt)
Cadet Second Lieutenant (C/2d Lt)
Cadet First Lieutenant (C/1st Lt)
Cadet Captain (C/Capt)
Cadet Major (C/Maj)
Cadet Lieutenant Colonel (C/Lt Col)
Cadet Colonel (C/Col)


Note that CAP does not use other abbreviations, such as Army-style rank (2LT or CPT, etc.), nor do cadet grades utilize a lower case "C" such as c/AB - both common mistakes I see.

I thought I would point this out and post this as a permanent reference.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
SarDragon
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2006, 04:12:14 AM »

And, for those folks who wil now bring up the abbreviations seen in various databases and reports, save your time and your reply. These stem from an economy of bits and bytes situation in programming and storing said databases.
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Dave Bowles
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ELTHunter
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 08:13:22 PM »

If anyone's interested, you can find rank abbreviations for all services here.

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
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afgeo4
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 04:42:18 PM »

FYI:

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Army and Marine grade of Sgt (E-5) is equal to Air Force SSgt (E-5) and thus the Air Force equivalent is worn on CAP uniforms.
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GEORGE LURYE
MIKE
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 05:27:05 PM »

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.
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Mike Johnston
Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 06:23:31 PM »

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.

Our grades are not USAF grades.  If they were, CAP would have eliminated warrant/flight officer grades when the USAF abandoned the warrant officers back in the 1950s. 

As Mike said, take a look at CAPR 35-5.  This is not a case of an outdated regulation simply needing updating.  CAP has Sergeants.

In some branches, an E-4 may very well be a Non-Commissioned Officer; in the Army and Marines, a Corporal (E-4) may be an NCO.  Since CAP allows for all former military NCOs to have NCO status in Civil Air Patrol, not just former Air Force, there needs to be an E-4 NCO grade in CAP.  "Three-stripers" senior members in CAP are Sergeants, not Senior Airmen.  The chart above is correct as originally posted. 

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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Psicorp
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 06:30:49 PM »

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.

CAPR 35-5 has a publication date of August 2004.   According to a question posted in the Knowledgebase:


"CAP NCO rank from prior military service
 
  Question
  I would like to keep my NCO rank from prior Air Force service. I was a SGT. E-4. Now that Sgt has been eliminated, can I wear the SSgt rank?
 
  Answer
  No. See Section F (below) of CAP REGULATION 35-5 (E) CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS

CAP members have the option of wearing the highest enlisted grade earned from prior military service. CAP grade must be equivalent to prior service grade (Army or Navy E-6 would be Tech Sergeant). In this case AF equivalent for E-4 is senior airman. Equivalent for E-5 is SSgt. See Section F below for procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades."


So it would seem that either the regulation is wrong/hasn't been updated or the Knowledge Base is wrong.

This stuff makes my head hurt.  I'm happy and content to let all Senior Member enlisted folks be NCOs...they've earned it!
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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 06:49:06 PM »

So it would seem that either the regulation is wrong/hasn't been updated or the Knowledge Base is wrong.

Neither.  The Knowledgebase simply said the AF equivalent of E-4 is Senior Airman.  In CAP, the equivalent grade available to current and former NCO E-4's is Sergeant. 

There's no confusion, the regulation is very clear.  If the knowledgebase did, however, at any point post something stating otherwise, it would be the knowledgebase that was wrong.  The KB is merely the responses of staff members who are not always 100% versed on all of CAP's regulations; the regulations themselves are the final and authoritative source.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
USAF-LT-G
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 12:26:29 PM »

Negative... I would still disagree with the KB Question. The KB is confusing #1 albeit:

Question
  I would like to keep my NCO rank from prior Air Force service. I was a SGT. E-4. Now that Sgt has been eliminated , can I wear the SSgt rank?

The question states that the person was a SGT from prior AIR FORCE service. Unless this question was meant to address the olden days rank of "Buck Sergeant" E-4, this doesn't make sense since SGT isn't currently a rank in the Air Force. The question was "worded" in such a way to address the issue of what an E-4 in the Air Force promotes to... Although I understand the importance of recognizing other services besides the Air Force. This question is directed towards the Air Force rank structure, and doesn't make sense.

Therefore, the answer isn't clear either since the question was meant to address the issue of an Air Force Grade of E-4. The answer would make MUCH more sense, if it were stated in a way that says, "No. Regardless of branch of service, the Grade of E-4 is equivalent to the Rank of SGT in Civil Air Patrol." Cut and dry.

So no... it isn't clear as day as you suggest.
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MIKE
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 12:36:11 PM »

I think you could make the case that someone who was a Sgt (E-4) prior to the elimination of the rank in the USAF would qualify for the CAP grade of Sgt... As long as those persons were not required to revert to SrA, and loose NCO status with the change in structure.
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Mike Johnston
Monty
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Posts: 276

« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 12:50:18 PM »

Guess I don't see what all the hub-bub is about.  Attrition solves the problem, just like it did for us in the Air Force.

Sure, there were the rare times where an E-4 sergeant got miffed because we thought he was a senior airman, but most "bucks" were accustomed to the slips (and had further motivation to test and earn SSgt.)

In the rare chance that a former AF E-4 sergeant wanted to be a CAP E-4 sergeant, c'est la vie - we'd deal with the whoopsies of confusion just like we did in the Air Force.  (It'll just take longer for the CAP E-4 sergeant to fall away from the MML, given that our folks can serve up until they die...  But as cold as it sounds, attrition solves the heartache if there really is any.)

Other branches?  "Nothing but love for you, DC3, but it's the nature of our beast - be a CAP 2d Lt in six months or be a CAP E-4 senior airman today."

Somehow, I think the UCMJ authority of NCOs and Petty Officers is essentially worthless in CAP anyway.....so it really is no big deal to fight about E-4 NCOs vs. non-NCO E-4s.

And if *prestige* is the thing holding matters up....well, vanity is very unbecoming of a leader in the first place: NCO or Officer, whether they be police, fire, CAP, NOAA, Public Health Service, or armed forces.
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DNall
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 01:03:50 PM »

Or a SrA today AND a 2Lt in six months.

No, I do think it's that the CAP reg has never been updated caus frankly, how many retired E-1 to E-4s to we see that keep their grade. I mean look around and tell me how many total NCOs you see in CAP at all. It just didn't come up.

It is true that the CAP system is technically its own thing (the AF doesn't have FOs either), but this particular issue for the Amn grades is supposed to get updated when they get around to it. It literally just got missed last time they went thru it.

The practice I've seen followed in the past & would follow myself if it came up is to appoint such members to the appropriate Amn grade. The form never leaves the Sq & they still show up as a SM at NHQ. As I said, that's almost exclusively people waiting to promote to officer grade. If they bother to wear something other than their AF uniform during that six months, I doubt it will go to the expense of ID'ing that grade, and if they do so & are seen outside the Sq almost no one will know it's not strictly correct... so the chance of me getting yelled at for what's really the right thing in spite of regs is very small.
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Tony91
Recruit

Posts: 15

« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2007, 09:09:30 PM »

I was unaware that there were senior member NCOs ive never seen any of them.
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C/SSGT,
MIKE
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2007, 09:46:05 PM »

They are rare, but I think CMSgt Chiafos will be working to get us some more.
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Mike Johnston
Tony91
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2007, 12:53:45 AM »

doesnt the senior members ranks start at senior member and then go flight officer, technical flight officer, senior flight officer 2nd lt. etc. so how does one become a CAP NCO?
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C/SSGT,
arajca
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2007, 02:09:22 AM »

A military (Army, Navy, AF, MC, CG) NCO - active, retired, or discharged- can join CAP and keep their NCO grade if they do not want to become CAP officers. They cannot promote in CAP unless they get promoted in their service. That being said, the NB approved advanced officer grade for SNCO's. This includes NG and Reserve NCO's. IIRC, E-7 gets 1st Lt; E-8, Capt; E-9, Major, after completing Level I and CPPT.

If you're not a military NCO, you cannot become a CAP NCO.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2007, 03:35:01 AM »

A military (Army, Navy, AF, MC, CG) NCO - active, retired, or discharged- can join CAP and keep their NCO grade if they do not want to become CAP officers. They cannot promote in CAP unless they get promoted in their service. That being said, the NB approved advanced officer grade for SNCO's. This includes NG and Reserve NCO's. IIRC, E-7 gets 1st Lt; E-8, Capt; E-9, Major, after completing Level I and CPPT.

If you're not a military NCO, you cannot become a CAP NCO.

When did this happen?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
SarDragon
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2007, 05:30:50 AM »

Or a SrA today AND a 2Lt in six months.

No, I do think it's that the CAP reg has never been updated caus frankly, how many retired E-1 to E-4s to we see that keep their grade. I mean look around and tell me how many total NCOs you see in CAP at all. It just didn't come up. [stuff redacted]

A small point here - you don't have to be retired to wear NCO rank in CAP. All you need is a DD-214 or equivalent to verify honorable service and the highest earned rank.

As for retiring as an E-4 or below, that has been almost impossible in all the time I've been around the military, unless it's a medical retirement. High year tenure rules force an "up or out" policy.
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Dave Bowles
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SarDragon
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2007, 05:33:16 AM »

doesnt the senior members ranks start at senior member and then go flight officer, technical flight officer, senior flight officer 2nd lt. etc. so how does one become a CAP NCO?

Read CAPR 35-5 for all the info on promotions.
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Dave Bowles
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SarDragon
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2007, 05:37:23 AM »

A military (Army, Navy, AF, MC, CG) NCO - active, retired, or discharged- can join CAP and keep their NCO grade if they do not want to become CAP officers. They cannot promote in CAP unless they get promoted in their service. That being said, the NB approved advanced officer grade for SNCO's. This includes NG and Reserve NCO's. IIRC, E-7 gets 1st Lt; E-8, Capt; E-9, Major, after completing Level I and CPPT.

If you're not a military NCO, you cannot become a CAP NCO.


When did this happen?

Which, the italic part, the bold part or the underlined part?

In order:

A long time ago.

Recently, probably within the last year, and maybe not ratified yet.

A long time ago.
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Dave Bowles
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Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
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