Why don't you participate in NCC?

[Fuzzy]

As someone who was C/CC of Drill Team up to region level. I wouldn't do it again... Or recommend it to a friend.

[NC Hokie]

If the purpose of the competition is to make the local unit's program better they need their own gear to train with and to do local ceremonies.

Training and local use gear are fine for everyday use, but you probably don't want to be using that for the region and national competitions.  The easy solution to that is to have the wing maintain a full "parade" set that remains in storage until it is needed for those competitions.

[lordmonar]

Easy solution?

Getting my wing to pay for anything related to Cadet Programs is anything but easy.

[Bayareaflyer 44]

I had the privilege to not only participate on 5 teams that made it to the NCC, commanding one of them, but also got the opportunity to win the sweepstakes twice.

In total, our squadron (yes, our team only contained individuals who were members of our squadron) won NCC 3 times, and participated in a total of 7.

Yes, it was hard.  Yes, it took an insane amount of time.  Yes, we had to beg and plead for money for uniforms, practice facilities, transportation - everything.

But would I do it again? Absolutely.  And so would the other 64 members that comprised our teams over the years. 

Why?  Because it was hard.  Because we had to be driven.  Because we had to be the best.  And that is exactly what this competition is striving to be – to give our cadets a chance to excel and compete, and bring out all those attributes that only fierce competition can inspire. 

I am still very close personal friends with many of my teammates after all these years, and we often celebrate this unique experience that only this cadet program could have provided.  We were truly blessed to have had this great opportunity.

[Pingree1492]

Bear with me here, this will be a long post. 

Some background before I start- our squadron has entered a Drill Team in the NCC competition cycle for the last three years, broken down as follows:
2007- Lost at COWG competition- beaten by Group 1 "super-team"
2008- Won COWG competition (beat the Group 1 team); Lost at Region- "super-team" from Utah
2009- Won COWG competition (beat Group 1 again); Lost at Region- same folks from Utah- they won NCC
2010- Won COWG competition; Region is April 17th, where we'll again be competing against the defending NCC Champions

Our team is made up of cadets solely from our unit, and every single year we have struggled to come up with 14 cadets that can commit to the Drill Team.  We are the 9th largest cadet unit in the NATION.  The 4th and 6th largest units in the nation (both in Colorado Springs, CO) are consistently unable to find enough cadets to field a team.  If one of the goals of the NCC is to support the local unit, and allow them to compete with each other, then the competition in its current form is failing that.

The things we struggle with:
1) Time.  As has already been mentioned, the time it takes to put together a competitive team is enormous.  Our team currently practices every Sunday, and has since December.  Unfortunately, we're competing against a team that practices for the entire weekend, every weekend.  That kind of tempo is sustainable if you have a super-team; but it puts an incredible drain on unit resources.  Many of our cadets in staff positions are on the Drill Team, so running squadron activities on the weekend becomes a problem during competition season with us.

2) Money.  We spent thousands of dollars on the competition last year.  Region will be in-state this year, so our expenses will be a LOT lower.  However, it's still going to be expensive, probably around $2000.  This all comes out of unit funds, and takes up a little over half of the operating costs for the year.  So fundraising is really important for our unit.  Fortunately, we're able to get the majority the funds we need for the year in a couple of activities. 

3) Resources.  We only have a limited number of cadets in the unit.  The number of cadets that can commit to coming to every practice on a three-plus month period is even more limited.  This year, two cadets on the team have only been in CAP since November.  This is obviously not ideal (however, one of those cadets tied for the highest written exam score in the wing competition, not too shabby!).  The cadets that are C/SSgt or above (most of the team) already have a job and leadership duties with the squadron, and we have made it as clear as possible that those duties come first.  While good for the squadron it gets in the way of drill team.

4) Facilities.  It is REALLY hard to find a place to practice volleyball for free.  Our least expensive option is paying $5 per cadet and senior to practice in the local community center every time we want to play.  Only one of our cadets has ever played volleyball outside of CAP.  The difficulties preparing for this event lessen in the summer, as we can practice outside, but that's not really an option in the winter, and not a reliable one in the spring.


With all of the negatives I mentioned, you might ask why we continue to torture ourselves year after year after year.

What our unit gets out of it:
1) Better cadets.  Obviously, our cadets can drill and wear their uniforms really well.  They also know a lot.  Their knowledge level in all aspects of the program is much higher than it would be otherwise because they have to study Leadership Vol. 1, Aerospace Modules 1-6, CAPR 52-16, CAPM 39-1, CAPP 52-18 and AFMAN 36-2203 for the competition.  They're already studying for everything up to their Mitchell, which is a good thing.

2) Leadership experience.  The drill team commander is the obvious beneficiary here.  There is A LOT riding on the performance of the Cadet Team Commander in every single drill event.  If he/she screws up even a little bit, it can cost the team that event.  Leadership under that kind of pressure is a great thing to experience (yes, I'm well aware that the NCC isn't the only venue in the cadet programs that offers that).

2) CPFT improvements.  Because they have to run the mile for the competition, some of our cadets find the motivation they need through drill team to improve their mile run times so that they actually pass their CPFT.  I just wish they'd keep that motivation through the rest of the year, but guess we have to start somewhere...

3) Teamwork.  This is an incredible teamwork experience for the cadets.  They get to experience the team bonding that occurs with close competition, and putting 4 cadets in the same hotel room overnight.  In all seriousness, they also get to experience dealing with the negatives of forming close-knit teams.  Working in Drill Teams, or Color Guards up to the NCC is a unique experience in CAP.  The team's ability to deal with adversity, disagreement, and personality conflicts will make or break the experience.    It's not like encampment, where you work closely with a group of people for a week, then go back to the real world.  Or Ground Teams- where it's a high-intensity, short-term situation, again, you are only dealing with those same people for a short time.  In drill team, you're spending A LOT of time with the same people over a long period of time, and you HAVE to learn to work together or not at all.

4) Maturity.  Many of our cadets have never been to an encampment, so this is the first experience they have taking trips away from their families.  Unlike encampment, they have a MUCH higher degree of personal freedom in what they do with their time, especially when competition is over.  In the past, we've seen a bit of an increase in the maturity and personal confidence in the cadets after they went to Region.  It's not huge, but enough to be noticeable.

5) Fun.  After all the stress, anxiety and anticipation are over, the competition itself is a lot of fun.  It's a great way to meet cadets from all over the wing, region and nation.  Because it is a fun thing, it also makes it easy to teach lessons about competing and sportsmanship that will last a lifetime.


Overall, competing in the competition is a great experience for cadets, and one I highly encourage as many as possible to do.  I believe with some simple improvements to the competition itself, more units, and therefore more cadets can take part in this awesome activity. 

[Pingree1492]

How I would change the Drill Team Competition to make it easier for single squadrons to compete:

In-Ranks Inspection:  I really like the suggestion that was made at the NEC this year of changing the In-Ranks Inspection to a knowledge-type event.  Basically, this would mean picking a few cadets at random from each team, and then putting them in a room.  In a bag would be a number of different ribbons, and another bag would contain a few different ribbon racks.  Several options for grade insignia and specialty devices would also be available, along with a blank blues shirt.  The cadets would then be given a description of "Cadet Doe's" accomplishments in CAP and given XX amount of time to properly configure his/her uniform.  I like this idea because it forces every cadet in the team to learn how to put together the uniform (both male/female, officer/enlisted, etc. etc.) well.  It also eliminates a significant cost factor to the event in having to buy and maintain "inspection uniforms" and "everything else" uniforms.

Standard Drill:  Not much to change here in my opinion. 

Innovative Drill:  By far this my cadets' favorite event.  This is the fun "hook" we use to bring the cadets into Drill Team.  I also have found that through the Innovative Drill, the cadet's standard drill performance improves.  To make it easier for smaller units to enter a team, I would maybe suggest that the maximum time limit for the routine be decreased.  You'll still get the same level of competition with 3 minute routines as you do with 5 minute routines, it will just make it easier for the "little guys" to get their foot in the door.

Written Test:  Not much to change here in my opinion.  The only change I would make is get rid of the "General Civil Air Patrol Knowledge" from the list of things that will be included on the test.  That is a ridiculously subjective thing, as what constitutes "General Knowledge" to me is going to be very different from how you interpret it. 

Panel Quiz:  I really like this event, but it is REALLY hard to get good at it.  I don't think it should be gotten rid of, but again, in the interest of helping more units create teams, I would maybe limit the areas covered to just aerospace (like with the Color Guards) or just leadership.  This again, will help the "little guys" while still preserving the competitiveness of the event.

Mile Run:  Keeper, obviously.  Though, I think the 1:30 minute deduction from female times is a little extreme (saying that as a woman).  Some equalizer needs to be made, but that's a little much.

Volleyball:  I would scrap this event.  As much fun as volleyball is, the moves that are required to play aren't highly intuitive.  I would accept either option of going with a 6 event competition, or using a replacement event.  If a replacement event is considered, I vote for ultimate Frisbee- most people can throw and catch a Frisbee.  And it leaves room to be highly competitive, as well as using all members of the team at the same time on the field.  The rules that AFROTC uses during their ultimate Frisbee competitions allow the event to be competitive while minimizing the chance of injury and keeping the playing field level between male/female and younger/older cadets.  It also doesn't require a gym or a bunch of equipment to practice it.  Plus it's a MUCH better workout than Volleyball!  And more fun.  And...


While I have a lot of Drill Team experience, I'm certainly not an expert in the Color Guard aspects, so I can't really offer any suggestions on that particular competition, other than changing the In-Ranks Inspection as I would with the Drill Team.

[Fuzzy]

In-Ranks Inspection:  I really like the suggestion that was made at the NEC this year of changing the In-Ranks Inspection to a knowledge-type event.  Basically, this would mean picking a few cadets at random from each team, and then putting them in a room.  In a bag would be a number of different ribbons, and another bag would contain a few different ribbon racks.  Several options for grade insignia and specialty devices would also be available, along with a blank blues shirt.  The cadets would then be given a description of "Cadet Doe's" accomplishments in CAP and given XX amount of time to properly configure his/her uniform.  I like this idea because it forces every cadet in the team to learn how to put together the uniform (both male/female, officer/enlisted, etc. etc.) well.  It also eliminates a significant cost factor to the event in having to buy and maintain "inspection uniforms" and "everything else" uniforms.

I don't see how you can get out of holding an old fashioned uniform inspection, even though it leads to tailored uniforms and other kinds of nonsense.  The team will be judged on how they look in one way or another anyway.

[Ozzy]

Hey guys, I suggest you read the NCC 'White Paper' that NCAC is proposing for changes to the NCC located here: http://www.cac.cap.gov/NCC%20White%20Paper.pdf

Have fun with that. 

[mbrown]

^ I found the above paper extremely valuable. I completely agreed with all of the paper except for the part about volleyball. I think there should be a team sport, but, i don't think volleyball is the right approach.

[Ozzy]

Of course. What about Ultimate Frisbee?  Its cheap, easy, you don't have to worry about varsity players, and its about running and real teamwork 

[Short Field]

Or for a real leadership challenge - flickerball.

[Ned]

Hey guys, I suggest you read the NCC 'White Paper' that NCAC is proposing for changes to the NCC located here: http://www.cac.cap.gov/NCC%20White%20Paper.pdf

Have fun with that. 

As valuable as the NCAC is, this particular product is not theirs.  It is a joint effort of the national CP staff - both corporate and volunteer.

Was there something in the paper that you particularly liked or disliked?

[swamprat86]

It doesn't address another important issue which has been mentioned here, Senior Member participation/supervison.  How are squadrons to handle this if they do not have any seniors capabable or willing to assist with the teams?  I like the ideas and I think changes are neccessary, but I don't think you are going to see the level of participation increase like he hopes.  We attempt to have units create teams to compete in the wing but we never get enough interest from units that we even get one team from a unit, so we are forced to come up with a Wing team of members from various units.  It is either that or not participate.  Which you may also see happen with the limitation on multi-unit teams.

[NC Hokie]

I like a lot of the stuff contained in the white paper but two things stand out to me:

1) What is being done for units that would like to participate in the drill competition that do not have enough cadets to field a team (or half of a team if the proposed limitation on "super teams" is enacted)?

2) IMHO, the elimination of an in-ranks inspection won't do much to curb the "new uniform syndrome" it is designed to address.  We didn't have an in-ranks inspection for our drill team WIWAC (NJROTC), but we made sure that each member had a fresh uniform and a new pair of shoes before the regional competition in the spring.  Why?  Because we didn't want to compare unfavorably with the teams we competed against.

To address my first concern, I suggest a new competition category for elements consisting of four to six in-ranks cadets and an element leader.  Use standard and adaptive drill as suggested in the white paper and fill out the competition with the tests and CPFT administered in the color guard competition.  The second concern is a bit more problematic, as there's no way to keep people from spending their own money, but limiting uniform accoutrements to rank insignia and name plates ONLY would help to curb some of the expense.

[Ozzy]

I like a lot of the stuff contained in the white paper but two things stand out to me:

1) What is being done for units that would like to participate in the drill competition that do not have enough cadets to field a team (or half of a team if the proposed limitation on "super teams" is enacted)?

2) IMHO, the elimination of an in-ranks inspection won't do much to curb the "new uniform syndrome" it is designed to address.  We didn't have an in-ranks inspection for our drill team WIWAC (NJROTC), but we made sure that each member had a fresh uniform and a new pair of shoes before the regional competition in the spring.  Why?  Because we didn't want to compare unfavorably with the teams we competed against.

Well for your first point, the white paper is proposing to allow the teams to have members from up to two squadrons. That will eliminate some of the teams where they have cadets from all over the group and/or wing. As long as the two squadrons have a combined total of 13 cadets (Like 6 from one, 7 from the other or 2/11 or 4/9 etc.), the problem that you would have, and national would never be able to eliminate, is if the cadets would be dedicated to the team and be willing to participate in it. Its to eliminate me from taking the 13 cream-of-the-top cadets from the group/wing against having a competition vs. a team of 'average cadets' from RandomTown Squadron.

The point of eliminating the in-ranks inspection is to de-emphasize having "$500 competition-only" uniforms that is prepared by an OCD person and the emphasize knowing CAPM 31-1 and CAPR 31-3 by everyone on the team and how to apply is to a uniform.

As to senior member supervision, the white paper only seems to be stipulating about limiting cadets from different squadrons, not seniors from other squadrons and/or groups. If you can't get senior supervision from the two squadrons, try to find one or some from another, and if you can't get a senior or two from the entire group/wing, thats something wrong with the seniors, not with the way the NCC program is running.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I have read the paper and it makes a lot of sense.  I completely agree with the innovative drill section and in-ranks inspection proposals.  I disagree with the elimination of “super-teams” (at least in the way described) and volleyball.

I agree that “super-teams” are a problem when they are used as a “metro-team.”  However, the elimination of “super-teams” can be detrimental to the wings (like Arkansas) that only have one squadron per a large area and do not have the population density to support multiple squadrons in a small area.  The only way Arkansas could compete in a drill-team would be to have cadets from all squadrons for a team.  We simply don’t have the geography to support a two-squadron-only drill team.  So this would effectively rule out Arkansas from ever competing with a drill team.  I think a more workable solution would be to lower the number of cadets on a team.  To what?  I don’t know.  What I do know is that even fielding half a team, plus a color guard, would take up almost all of my active cadets, and we are one of the larger squadrons in the state.

Volleyball is fun.  While share the concerns about the size/age issue, the cadets don’t worry about it.  They enjoy just playing a sport that they can have fun at.  If we substitute a TLP, that would take all of the “fun” out of the competition.  Let the kids play.  It is the one sport that all can play and physical size / age has the least impact on performance.   I am worried that if volleyball is taken out, NCC would become, in the minds of the cadet, “all work and no play.”

I am happy to see the NHQ Cadet Team working hard to improve the NCC experience.  And the publishing of white papers and putting them out for public comment is awesome.  I commend NHQ and all who are working on the program.

[lordmonar]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess about the cost effectiveness of the NCC program?

That is....is CAP getting its money worth from the program?

Is there anything we could be spending the $134K that would better benefit the cadets?

Say....offering a second COS session?
Or.....a CNCOS (Cadet NCO School)?
Or.....a West Coast NESA?

Don't get me wrong....I thing a drill competition is great....but as the white paper points out less then 10% of the squadrons participate.....and only 8 (if we eliminate super teams) actually go to the NCC....I think that if we dropped it no one would really miss it.

We can still hold wing and regional competitions and maybe even form a partnership with JROTC to participate in their competitions.

[Nathan]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess about the cost effectiveness of the NCC program?

That is....is CAP getting its money worth from the program?

Is there anything we could be spending the $134K that would better benefit the cadets?

Say....offering a second COS session?
Or.....a CNCOS (Cadet NCO School)?
Or.....a West Coast NESA?

Don't get me wrong....I thing a drill competition is great....but as the white paper points out less then 10% of the squadrons participate.....and only 8 (if we eliminate super teams) actually go to the NCC....I think that if we dropped it no one would really miss it.

We can still hold wing and regional competitions and maybe even form a partnership with JROTC to participate in their competitions.

:clap:

I must admit another worry of mine that few people seem to be bringing up as well...

EVEN if it were true that NCC was worth spending the money on, and EVEN if it were true that the cadets were truly benefiting from the ungodly amount of time spent to prepare, what is the PERCENTAGE of cadets, per squadron, that actually benefits?

If we have a squadron of about thirty cadets, and five of them are on the color guard, then the thousands of dollars that are being spent on equipment, new uniforms and shoes, and travel expenses are benefiting only those five cadets. I hate to put it like this, but is the experience that the cadets get at NCC really worth depriving the other 25 cadets at the squadron of that much money, when money isn't exactly a free-flowing commodity in CAP?

I went to a lot of cool activities as a cadet, and while I can't compare any of them to NCC, since I did not participate in it, is NCC really that much cooler than COS? IACE? NESA? What about a basic encampment? It's sickening to think how many cadets we could send to an encampment for the amount of money that some of these teams spend to "be competitive." For the $5,000 quoted in the paper, I could send approximately 40-50 cadets to an encampment. That's just not right.

Sorry, but while I understand that NCC seems to be a good leadership activity, and seems to be fun, I just haven't heard anything that convinces me that it's really worth the amount of time and money that has to be put into it, especially considering what it costs all of the other cadets who are not participating. I'd be pretty bummed if I couldn't afford to go to a NCSA, and watch five color guard members get thousands of dollars spent on pieces of wood and fresh new uniforms because their activity is apparently more important than mine.

YMMV

EDIT: I also am relieved to FINALLY see a solution proposed for the C/CMSgts who either refuse to promote or discouraged from doing so for the sake of NCC. I will say with a good deal of confidence that there is nothing the NCC can possibly offer that will beat out the opportunities one has as a C/Officer, and it is extremely frustrating for me to see ANY motivation for a cadet NOT to promote onward to the Mitchell.

[Eclipse]

If we have a squadron of about thirty cadets, and five of them are on the color guard, then the thousands of dollars that are being spent on equipment, new uniforms and shoes, and travel expenses are benefiting only those five cadets. I hate to put it like this, but is the experience that the cadets get at NCC really worth depriving the other 25 cadets at the squadron of that much money, when money isn't exactly a free-flowing commodity in CAP?

Locally I hear "The cadets raised their own money..." or "This was money donated / raised specifically for NCC...", etc.

That doesn't change the conversation one bit - in most cases CAP donations are a zero-sum game (i.e. the person making the donation
has "$x" to donate and really doesn't care where the money is used, but its a 1-stop trip to the wallet), and that money could be put to
much better use.

And the constant mention through this thread and the outside discussions is what a great personal experience NCC can be. That's wonderful, but in most cases CAP activities are more about the group benefit than the personal, COS, CLS, encampments, etc., are part of training cadets to give back to those who come next.

Activities like NCC which really only benefit the participants are fine, but not in their current proportion of time and resources.  Further, as Nathan mentions, is the resentment many non-participants have for the participants because they are viewed as "special" while giving back little to the program locally, while draining time and resources to what is really important.

[Nathan]

Locally I hear "The cadets raised their own money..." or "This was money donated / raised specifically for NCC...", etc.

And to those people, I would challenge them to convince me that the people donating thousands of dollars to NCC activities would be unwilling to donate that money to other CP programs instead. Now THAT would be interesting.