Soft field take-off and landings

[DG]

How many Wings are mandating an actual soft field take-off and landing as part of the Form 5?

[vento]

Not in CAWG, only simulated soft field techniques on hard surface runway is asked to be performed. I haven't seen any ACTUAL soft field operations during a form 5 yet.

[Short Field]

We do actual soft field take-off and landing techniques on hard surface runways.  Soft field landings on soft fields are nice - but you can pick up a lot of dings to the prop in a very short time.

[vento]

We do actual soft field take-off and landing techniques on hard surface runways.  Soft field landings on soft fields are nice - but you can pick up a lot of dings to the prop in a very short time.

LOL, Short Field, I think your statement contradicts itself. Wouldn't that be a simulated operation since you are using hard field to simulate soft field take off and landing techniques?  :angel:

[jimmydeanno]

In my previous wing, a pilot was not permitted to land on a soft field without express permission (does a golf course count?) from the Wing Commander in advance (exempting emergencies).  So I can say that they were definitely not a part of the form 5 process.

[DG]

We do actual soft field take-off and landing techniques on hard surface runways.  Soft field landings on soft fields are nice - but you can pick up a lot of dings to the prop in a very short time.

Too funny!   =))

[DG]

Not in CAWG, only simulated soft field techniques on hard surface runway is asked to be performed. I haven't seen any ACTUAL soft field operations during a form 5 yet.

1.  So how does a CAWG CAP Pilot maintain her proficiency for going into and out of soft fields?  Does CAWG require or promote the CAP Pilot to fly in a non-CAP flight to maintain proficiency?  Or is it that CAWG says no flight ops ever into a soft field?

2.  Is this prohibition in the CAWG 60-1 Supplement?  Because 60-1 plainly permits soft field operations.

3.  What does this say about CAWG management and/or CAWG Pilots?

[heliodoc]

^^^^

It plainly says, IMHO, that CAP should just rewrite ITSELF to the FAA PTS standards and be done with it!!

CAP and its claim that its exceeeeeds FAA standards is BUNK... if this is true in CA Wing....

The 52 interpretations to 60-1 make it PLAIN not PLANE that CAP needs to follow one rule and one rule ONLY ...the FAA

This is not the CAP Airspace System....it IS the National Airspace System

CAP needs a true fanny kicking if they are out there adopting "new standards."

The arguments about soft field T/O have been argued plenty in the Wing I am in.  SO what is wrong with shorts and softs, anyway.  Maybe it in the way CAP CFI's are not held or trained to the fullest , at times, huh?

One Wing can not fly into soft or grass fields while other can.  WOOOW!!!

This clearly says something about a 60-1 that is only 15 pages long.  Only long enough for attention spans for 52 different interpretations and 52 different Stan Evals to come up with some training here and less training there...but no REAL standard training at all

CAP just needs to adopt to the FAA PTS standards and be done with its BAAAD 60-1....cuz in this case of shorts...who is following it?  Sure NOT  the "leadership" who ought to be READING IT, PRACTICING IT, and ABIDING BY IT.   Otherwise what good is a 15 page "regulation?"

[Short Field]

We do actual soft field take-off and landing techniques on hard surface runways.  Soft field landings on soft fields are nice - but you can pick up a lot of dings to the prop in a very short time.

LOL, Short Field, I think your statement contradicts itself. Wouldn't that be a simulated operation since you are using hard field to simulate soft field take off and landing techniques?  :angel:

Read the post.  We do the actual techniques for a soft field landing - we are just landing on a hard field.  We don't "simulate" the techniques.  There is a difference.  You are right, we are simulating a soft field landing - but we don't simulate the techniques.  I find the hardest part of a soft field landing isn't the landing but the taxiing around the airstrip.  Snow or grass are not that bad but dirt/sand/loose gravel strips are a real pain.   Dings to the prop and paint become just a fact of life.

[EMT-83]

CTWG doesn't allow soft field operations, without advance permission of the Wing CC. The thought being Connecticut is so small and there are numerous hard surface runways available, so it's not worth the potential problems.

However, last year arrangements were made to get a 182 into an air show held on a soft field. It was called Operation Glass on the Grass.

[Thrashed]

We allow soft field landings, but you need to be sure of the surface.  We had a plane almost get stuck in the mud in the spring.  Going from hard surface to grass surface without checking the conditions can be fun.  A low pass doesn't tell you the whole story. It can be like waterskiiing in mud.   

[dbaran]

I'm all for demonstrating soft takeoff/landings on a paved runway, but the POH for the plane I used for my F5 this year strongly 'discourages' landing on anything but a paved surface.   I didn't have to land and takeoff from actual grass for my PP checkride - why would I have to do it for a Form 5?

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the CAWG supplement to 60-1 that prohibits landing on an unpaved runway, and I can think of several gravel/dirt runways in CA that probably get occasional visits from CAP airplanes.  We just don't have many grass ones around, and the gravel ones don't teach you anything more (than landing on a paved surface using soft field techniques) except how much damage the rocks will do to the paint and the prop even if you're careful.  There's one airport around here (in reasonable flying distance) that has a grass runway, and it's been NOTAM'ed closed for several months due to the rain. 

As to Wing supplements - I agree that National standards are what should be used whenever possible.  However, when you've got a pattern of incidents (or a single really embarassing one), Wing comes up with a rule because some person obviously proved that the existing collection of rules didn't prevent stupidity.   I can come up with a pretty good guess as to what is causing heartburn for wing stand/eval just by reading the latest CAWG 60-1 supplement.

[DG]

Ah Hah!

I am beginning to see more clearly now.

In CAWG, soft field equals dirt, pebbles, gravel, and rocks.

When I think of soft fields, I see turf.  Turf and grass.  No rocks.

[PHall]

There aren't too many "grass" fields in California. They're mostly in the Sierra's and are privately owned. Not exactly Search Base material.

[SarDragon]

Actually, the newest version of the 60-1 supplement, which I just in my email, doesn't appear to say anything about soft field operation.

[DG]

Actually, the newest version of the 60-1 supplement, which I just in my email, doesn't appear to say anything about soft field operation.

All civilian airports which are listed in the current FAA Airport/Facility Directory are authorized for CAP Aircraft.

That includes a lot of soft fields.

Supplements to 60-1 cannot be issued below the wing level and require region commander, NHQ CAP/DO, and CAP-USAF/XO approval.

Requests for waivers or supplements must be submitted via chain of command to the region commander and then to NHQ CAP/DO for further distribution.

[Mustang]

Per CAPR 60-1 RMR Supp 1, use of non-paved runways is prohibited without prior written approval from RMR/CC.

[DG]

Per CAPR 60-1 RMR Supp 1, use of non-paved runways is prohibited without prior written approval from RMR/CC.

What does that say about RMR pilots?

And why is a soft field take-off and a soft field landing part of a Form 5?  Is it considered an emergency procedure in RMR?

[PHall]

Per CAPR 60-1 RMR Supp 1, use of non-paved runways is prohibited without prior written approval from RMR/CC.

What does that say about RMR pilots?

And why is a soft field take-off and a soft field landing part of a Form 5?  Is it considered an emergency procedure in RMR?

Because the Ops People at National felt that it needed to be evaluated, the RMR folks disagree.

And I bet that there are many, many more grass fields East of the Rockies then there are West of them.

Runways out here in the more arid West tend to be hard surfaced. Turf doesn't grow out here unless you irrigate it.

[Thrashed]

The Maule flys off grass all the time towing gliders.  Is that not allowed?